Schism in the Temple of Satan over hire of Alex Jones's lawyer

Kjbartolotta

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Kind of an interesting one.

The Satanic Temple is divide over its decision to hire Alex Jones's lawyer.

The Satanic Temple (TST) a nontheistic religious group that says it is dedicated to humanistic values, evidence-based scientific inquiry, and the separation of church and state, is currently suing Twitter for religious discrimination. TST argues it was not only unable to effectively report threats to its headquarters on the platform, but also that when its leader, who uses the pseudonym Lucien Greaves, spoke out, he was punished by being temporarily suspended.


Greaves’s decision to work with Marc Randazza, a lawyer whose other clients include Infowars’ Alex Jones and a number of neo-Nazis and white supremacists, has led to a fracture within TST. The Los Angeles chapter of the group has disaffiliated in protest, calling Randazza a “Twitter troll and an agent of the alt-right,” while the co-head of the New York chapter has resigned and left the organization.


The controversy over Greaves’s engagement of Randazza has crystallized wider debates within the organization. For Greaves and his allies, TST’s primary mission is to defend principles of personal sovereignty like free speech and separation of church and state, often by taking advantage of legal religious liberty exemptions. Greaves has frequently argued that this sovereignty is sacrosanct, even for views he finds repugnant: He has, for example, defended the right of ultra-conservative firebrand Milo Yiannopoulos to speak at California Polytechnic University after students purporting to be Satanists led a protest against him.


But for many of the progressive activists drawn to TST for its high-profile commitment to left-wing advocacy work, TST’s partnership with Randazza, and willingness to overlook his more troubling clientele, is a worrying sign that the organization is too willing to let the voices of its leadership — many of whom are straight white men — crowd out the wishes of a more diverse membership.
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A lot happening here; Twitter's continued laxity with its policy towards abuse, fractures within alternative spirituality and culture jamming communities, and the endless, endless, endless debate over when it's appropriate for a lawyer to defend their client. Additionally, I learned that the Satanic Temple is not the group founded by Anton LaVey, but rather a separate organization with a more progressive and altruistic agenda.

Worshiping Satan isn't my deal, but I think the organizations been fairly effective and true to its stated goals. I can also sympathize with the members of the Temple that are against hiring Randazza. Greaves is an admirable figure in my eyes, but he has to ask himself if he's making a deal with the...oh, wait...
 
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Lyv

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I don't even believe in Satan (or any gods), but I support The Satanic Temple. I'd be surprised if many members or supporters do. They're really about fighting for the separation of church and state, but existing as a religion gives them some protections and access that a non-religious organizations fighting the same battle doesn't get. They're wicked (no pun intended; I'm from Boston) creative and have a good track record. When religious groups got permission to give out Bibles to public elementary school students, TST demanded the same right to distribute Satanic coloring books. In such situations, secular organizations can succeed by threatening legal action to get the school to stop allowing the Bibles (or the Ten Commandments obelisk), but they can't scare them as much as The Satanic Temple and their Satanic coloring books (or Baphomet statue), because they're walking in the door the religious group opened, not asking for that door to be closed (though that's their goal, and what often happens).

They've done the same thing with religious convocations at public meetings, Ten Commandments monuments on public land, things like that. They usually either get permission to add their own display or the city or state removes the religious display.

They're so effective I hate to hear about a schism. Greaves has been so smart and dedicated, I'm going to read up on his side, but my initial reaction is not positive.
 
neandermagnon

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I've never heard of the Satanic Temple before, but I totally want a Satanic colouring book.
 
MaeZe

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They're great, they have sued to have their symbols displayed in public places where other religious symbols are displayed. It's a freedom from religion group. They don't really believe in Satan.
 
Kjbartolotta

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MaeZe said:
They don't really believe in Satan.
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The original Church of Satan has pseudo-Objectivist vibe to it (which is why I'm obsessed with it, as I am with all things that reek of Randian philosophizing). Greaves is kind of tricky about the question of if he actually worships Satan or not he doesn't, but the Temple seems to hem pretty close to the original philosophy, except somehow good and benevolent, which is kind of blowing my mind. There's certainly an interest in aesthetic Satanism beyond the trolling element, and I imagine you got a pretty diverse bunch of opinions going member to member.

I wish them well, and hope both the Satanic Temple and Satanic Collective can keep doing good. It's sort of a legitimate discussion happening, I'd be pissed if I was a member of an organization that hired someone who represented Stormfront. OTOH I think one can take Greaves at face value. Hopefully the rift won't damage either group's credibility or effectiveness, divisions like this are bound to happen and, especially if you're a member of a group that encourages individuality and creativity, they don't have to be a negative.
 
neandermagnon

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The vast majority of satanists don't worship Satan*. LaVeyan Satanists worship themselves and there's no requirement to believe in any particular deities. A lot of pagans get labelled as Satanists even though they don't believe in Satan or even call themselves Satanists. Satan is a thing from Christianity, plus there's the Arabic word shaytaan which is more like "demon" than Satan - the Islamic equivalent of the Christian Satan is called Iblees. Satanists and pagans are not Christians. They don't worship the Christian Satan or Islamic bad jinns (not all jinns are shaytaans, there are good jinns too)*.

*there are always exceptions. I'm not saying that people who worship the actual Christian Satan or Islamic shaytaans or the Islamic Iblees don't exist at all. They probably do but I've never come across any.

Some people who call themselves Satanists and plenty who don't call themselves Satanists worship the horned god - Baphomet, Pan, or various other names - some consider them all to be different names for the same being, others consider them all separate beings with similar attributes - and this god may sometimes go by the name of Satan, due to Satan also being goat-like and having horns, but that doesn't make this god anything like the Christian Satan. He's a god of nature and forests. Best way to sum this up is with the lyrics of the song "call me Satan" by pagan folk-rock band Omnia https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_6GdgLK1wk

ETA: I just remembered, ages ago I read about people who do believe in Christian theology, but believe that the Christian God is bad (casting people into hell for being gay, and stuff) and that the Christian Satan is the good guy (representing freedom from an oppressive deity). I've not come across anyone like this though - just read about it, just saying that because even if someone does worship the actual Christian Satan doesn't mean that in their mind, they're worshipping an evil deity. Also, this is by far not the majority of Satanists.
 
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