Gender and the Suspension of Disbelief in Fiction

kindratiah · Aug 7, 2018

I read a lot of book reviews, and in doing so, I've noticed many patterns.

For instance, people will suspend their disbelief so very easily for things like magic and psuedo-science, and yet- play with or subvert their notion of gender roles and what gender means, and a number of people start screaming their heads off about inaccuracy and "lack of believability."

Dragons that breathe fire? "Neato."

Ability to sit smack dab in the middle of said fire and remain totally unharmed? "Cool."

A matriarchal culture? "What?! How, I say how in the world could fragile, frail women ever take control of society? Preposterous, I say!"

Stuff like that does lead me to put a lot of thought into the worlds I build in anticipation of such questions, so in a way...it's not the worst. I just thought it was kinda funny that, as I work on my novel, I've had to put far more thought into the explanation of my matriarchal society's history than I have, say, how the magic works, because I already know which will come under more scrutiny. [SUB][/SUB]

indianroads · Aug 7, 2018

Where are you getting your data from?

Also, this post might be better situated in the Fantasy / Science Fiction section.

kindratiah · Aug 7, 2018

indianroads said:
Where are you getting your data from?

Also, this post might be better situated in the Fantasy / Science Fiction section.

I get my data from the hundreds of Goodreads book reviews I devour on a regular basis. I don't know why I find book reviews so entertaining, but I do.

Anyway, I did consider that, but then I realized that this applies to more than just speculative fiction. I should change the title to reflect that.

lizmonster · Aug 7, 2018

kindratiah said:
I get my data from the hundreds of Goodreads book reviews I devour on a regular basis. I don't know why I find book reviews so entertaining, but I do.

Keep in mind you've got a self-selecting sample there. I'm also aware, for spec fic in particular, that there have occasionally been organized campaigns against non-hetero-cis-white-guy-dominated work.

I've been reading spec fic for ~45 years. Gender ambiguity, matriarchal societies, non-straight people - they've been a part of the genre all along, as have that subset of readers who just can't get their imaginations to go in that direction.

In general, I think there are some people for whom anything beyond what they personally find familiar (and "proper") is going to feel uncomfortable. I often find such reviews useful; I've been driven more than once to buy a book by a review pearl-clutching at something the reader considers "unrealistic."

kindratiah · Aug 7, 2018

I agree on all counts.

Aggy B. · Aug 7, 2018

indianroads said:
Where are you getting your data from?

Also, this post might be better situated in the Fantasy / Science Fiction section.

Have I told you about the dude I met back in January that insisted my book must be a "woman's book" because the narrator is female.

LizMonster is absolutely correct that matriarchal societies and PoC and queer folk have been a part of SF/F for decades. And certain groups have always thrown their hands up in disgust at how unrealistic those things are.

But, uh, let's not act like that response isn't a real thing.

lizmonster · Aug 7, 2018

Aggy B. said:
But, uh, let's not act like that response isn't a real thing.

Yes.

And if we want to bring in other genres...just last week (I think?) there was a spate of reports out of Romancelandia that there was a judge for the RITA awards telling authors that their books didn't count as "real" romances because they had a diverse cast.

I like to think the forward-thinkers outnumber people like this, but they do exist, and they often affect sales.

LJD · Aug 7, 2018

Reminds me of readers who have no trouble relating to elves and vampires but seem to find POC unrelatable...

kindratiah · Aug 7, 2018

I do know such concepts in fiction have been around for decades. If they hadn't, where would I have been getting all the reviews from?
In any case, I guess I'm just registering frustration that the rate of hand-thrower-uppers doesn't seem to be decreasing as much as I'd like with each generation. That being said, as stated before- I find their reviews very useful.

I also find them highly entertaining.

kindratiah · Aug 7, 2018

LJD said:
Reminds me of readers who have no trouble relating to elves and vampires but seem to find POC unrelatable...

Absolutely.

I hope this stops being a thing at some point.

LJD · Aug 7, 2018

lizmonster said:
And if we want to bring in other genres...just last week (I think?) there was a spate of reports out of Romancelandia that there was a judge for the RITA awards telling authors that their books didn't count as "real" romances because they had a diverse cast.

Yes, there were some books that had happy endings that were marked as "not being a romance because they didn't have a happy ending" in the RITAs... The main one I remember reading about was an existing couple that brought a third person into their relationship, but there were definitely others.

With regards to romance, especially historical romance...in general, readers have no trouble suspending belief for all the 30-something, single, attractive dukes with six-packs and perfect teeth running around in Romancelandia, and yet some find it impossible to imagine a black person getting an HEA in the 1800's.

LJD · Aug 7, 2018

kindratiah said:
Absolutely.

I hope this stops being a thing at some point.

Yep. Me, too.

I told my editor at the publisher I used to write for--and this is a well-respected, experienced editor--that I wanted to start writing books with Chinese-Canadian heroes and heroines, and she said something like If the characters just happen to be Chinese, but they’re still identifiable/relatable, that’s okay” (approx wording) which seems to imply that most of us Asians are unrelatable freaks (thread here).

indianroads · Aug 7, 2018

Writing tales that make people think and possibly challenge belief - while entertaining - is what authors are supposed to do IMO. No matter what you do some people will love your story and others won’t. Please all and you please none.

Are these issues more prevalent when going through an agent and a traditional publisher? If so, are the problems with agent / publisher, or your Readers?

lizmonster · Aug 7, 2018

indianroads said:
Writing tales that make people think and possibly challenge belief - while entertaining - is what authors are supposed to do IMO. No matter what you do some people will love your story and others won’t. Please all and you please none.

Are these issues more prevalent when going through an agent and a traditional publisher? If so, are the problems with agent / publisher, or your Readers?

The problems are with the culture, actually. Books are just one place where it's all focused. As for your agent/publisher/reader question? In aggregate, it's all of them, and no, I've seen no evidence that self-pub exempts you from the issue.

indianroads · Aug 7, 2018

lizmonster said:
The problems are with the culture, actually. Books are just one place where it's all focused. As for your agent/publisher/reader question? In aggregate, it's all of them, and no, I've seen no evidence that self-pub exempts you from the issue.

Against such odds I believe all anyone can do is tell their story, and hope it influences change.

heza · Aug 8, 2018

indianroads said:
Against such odds I believe all anyone can do is tell their story, and hope it influences change.

You can also support other authors who are telling those stories by purchasing, reading, and reviewing their work and by using your platform to signal boost those stories and authors.

autumnleaf · Aug 8, 2018

Some years ago, Scott Lynch was criticized for writing "unrealistic stereotypes of political correctness" because his novel included (among other things), a middle-aged black female pirate.

His response was epic:

What you’re really complaining about isn’t the fact that my fiction violates some objective “reality,” but rather that it impinges upon your sad, dull little conception of how the world works. I’m not beholden to the confirmation of your prejudices; to be perfectly frank, the prospect of confining the female characters in my story to placid, helpless secondary places in the narrative is so goddamn boring that I would rather not write at all. I’m not writing history, I’m writing speculative fiction. Nobody’s going to force you to buy it. Conversely, you’re cracked if you think you can persuade me not to write about what amuses and excites me in deference to your vision, because your vision fucking sucks.
http://fuckyeahscifiwomenofcolour.t...uthor-scott-lynch-responds-to-a-critic-of-the

As a direct result of this, I (and I suspect many others) immediately sought out his books.

kindratiah · Aug 8, 2018

Wow, "the works of Scott Lynch" just made the top of my reading list

lizmonster · Aug 8, 2018

It's especially odd to me to see people complaining about SF. The world isn't a monolith of straigh hetero white guys now, and you're objecting about diversity in future-based fiction?

The political statement is homogenaity.

John Falcon · Aug 8, 2018

autumnleaf said:
Some years ago, Scott Lynch was criticized for writing "unrealistic stereotypes of political correctness" because his novel included (among other things), a middle-aged black female pirate.

His response was epic:

As a direct result of this, I (and I suspect many others) immediately sought out his books.

I think that response was a little bit over the top and way too aggressive. Why take criticism so personal to the point you have to insult someone for having a different opinion to yours? What exactly did the critic write to make Scott Lynch lash out like that? Basically, what Scott Lynch is saying is "I'm right, you're wrong," with insults thrown in for good measures.

You can’t change how some people think or how they view the world, so really it’s not worth worrying about. You should write the kind of story you find appealing, and if it’s good enough you will (hopefully) find a base. Also, it’s one thing to suspend disbelief for elves and magic in a fantasy story than it is to do so in a non-fantasy story. It all depends on the world you’re creating. Some people like to read stuff that feels REAL to them and reflects the world they interpret as real. That doesn't necessarily mean they are narrow-minded, sexist or racist.

onesecondglance · Aug 8, 2018

John Falcon said:
It all depends on the world you’re creating. Some people like to read stuff that feels REAL to them and reflects the world they interpret as real. That doesn't necessarily mean they are narrow-minded, sexist or racist.

If people think that a world that isn't composed entirely of straight white guys doesn't feel "real" to them, that kinda does imply they are narrow-minded, sexist, and racist, though, doesn't it?

John Falcon · Aug 8, 2018

onesecondglance said:
If people think that a world that isn't composed entirely of straight white guys doesn't feel "real" to them, that kinda does imply they are narrow-minded, sexist, and racist, though, doesn't it?

I don't think I've ever met anyone who thinks the world is composed of only straight white guys or demands to read only novels with these characteristics. Do you have any such examples?

heza · Aug 8, 2018

John Falcon said:
I don't think I've ever met anyone who thinks the world is composed of only straight white guys or demands to read only novels with these characteristics. Do you have any such examples?

Seems to me that a reviewer complaining about the mere existence of a middle-aged black female pirate might serve as an example.

Thomas Vail · Aug 8, 2018

John Falcon said:
I think that response was a little bit over the top and way too aggressive.

Nope, it's pretty spot on in response to people who think PoC don't exist.

Chase · Aug 8, 2018

autumnleaf said:
his novel included (among other things), a middle-aged black female pirate.

Pirates, female leads, and black main characters I welcome with relish. But middle-aged? Please! No one can trust characters over thirty, much less read them with any interest. :sarcasm

Gender and the Suspension of Disbelief in Fiction

kindratiah

indianroads

Wherever I go, there I am.

kindratiah

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

kindratiah

Aggy B.

Not as sweet as you think

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

LJD

kindratiah

kindratiah

LJD

LJD

indianroads

Wherever I go, there I am.

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

indianroads

Wherever I go, there I am.

heza

autumnleaf

practical experience, FTW

kindratiah

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

John Falcon

onesecondglance

pretending to be awake

John Falcon

heza

Thomas Vail

What?

Chase

It Takes All of Us to End Racism