Character relationships and personalities

Questioner · Aug 1, 2018

Hello!

I'm very strict regarding filler. I cut out everything that can be defined as filler, jut because I know the reader just wants to get on with the story.

I was wondering what counts as filler, and what doesn't. Currently I've planned for the main characters' personalities and character developments to in some way further the story and benefit the plot further on.

Is this over-doing it? I've found that the characters fall kind of flat and boring just because of this.

What I'm asking is: is it generally considered okay to have the characters have "free" personalities and developments that don't affect the plot more? Or do I just need to work on my writing-characters-skills more?

Sonsofthepharaohs · Aug 1, 2018

Characters have to feel real. They should not just be plot robots that exist only to carry out the actions required for the story. Character *IS* plot. Sometimes it pays off to just create the characters and see where they take the story, rather than creating the story and then dropping in characters to go through the motions to get from A to B. That's when they feel shallow and wooden.

Bufty · Aug 1, 2018

This is a somewhat contradictory post, Questioner. :Hug2:

You say you're strict about 'filler' then it appears you don't know what does or doesn't constitute 'filler', then you answer your own question by saying you find your characters flat and boring because you cut out all that 'filler'.

Characters are everything. Story is fine, but it's characters with believable personalities and quirks, and how they react and contribute to the unfolding events, that holds readers. In real life, dull and boring people don't interest other people - in books they don't interest readers either.

'Filler' is usually boring in itself and can be cut with little loss. I doubt you have, or will have, much 'filler' :Sun:

Good luck. :Hug2:

Questioner said:
Hello!

I'm very strict regarding filler. I cut out everything that can be defined as filler, jut because I know the reader just wants to get on with the story.

I was wondering what counts as filler, and what doesn't. Currently I've planned for the main characters' personalities and character developments to in some way further the story and benefit the plot further on.

Is this over-doing it? I've found that the characters fall kind of flat and boring just because of this.

What I'm asking is: is it generally considered okay to have the characters have "free" personalities and developments that don't affect the plot more? Or do I just need to work on my writing-characters-skills more?

CathleenT · Aug 1, 2018

One of the simplest ways to avoid filler is to make sure there's always conflict.

The classic filler scene is someone drinking coffee or tea and mulling over their situation. We all do this in real life, but it's dull to read about. No conflict.

Consider having a scene antagonist (who doesn't have to be the story antag) for your MC in every scene. Make your MC work to overcome whatever the obstacle is, against the antag, and then you've got character development going for two characters.

Harlequin · Aug 1, 2018

The point isn't to finish the novel as quickly as possible but to actually enjoy reading it.

Tazlima · Aug 1, 2018

Questioner said:
Hello!

I'm very strict regarding filler. I cut out everything that can be defined as filler, jut because I know the reader just wants to get on with the story.

I was wondering what counts as filler, and what doesn't. Currently I've planned for the main characters' personalities and character developments to in some way further the story and benefit the plot further on.

Is this over-doing it? I've found that the characters fall kind of flat and boring just because of this.

What I'm asking is: is it generally considered okay to have the characters have "free" personalities and developments that don't affect the plot more? Or do I just need to work on my writing-characters-skills more?

The bolded isn't really true. Yes, if the the story gets sidetracked for too long, people will be like, "get on with it already," but it takes more than you might expect for that to happen. Often these little breathers, those moments of calm where characters do nothing more than sit around being themselves, can be some of the best and most memorable scenes.

As an example in film, consider the famous "Royale with Cheese" scene in "Pulp Fiction." It's just two guys riding in a car, chatting about how things are different in Europe vs. the US. It has no direct bearing on the plot. It's not like later in the film they go to Europe and order a Royale with Cheese. That scene could easily be cut, or another bit of dialogue swapped in for this one, and the overall story wouldn't be altered at all.

Yet it's a scene that really sticks in your brain, and the movie would be poorer for loss of it.

Muslihuddin Sadi wrote:

‘If, of thy mortal goods, thou art bereft,
And from thy slender store
two loaves alone to thee are left,
Sell one & from the dole,
Buy hyacinths to feed the soul.’

The plot is your bread, and it's important, but it's not everything. Don't shun the hyacinths.

Brightdreamer · Aug 1, 2018

Harlequin said:
The point isn't to finish the novel as quickly as possible but to actually enjoy reading it.

+1

If it were true that the reader "just wanted to get on with a story," every novel on the shelves would simply be printed and bound copies of synopses and/or outlines. "A modern English boy discovers he's a wizard and a bad guy killed his parents. He spends seven years learning to use magic and then faces Voldemort. The end." Is that more or less satisfying than immersing in Harry Potter's trials and tribulations - not just against Voldemort, but experiencing Hogwarts, the ups and downs of his friendship with Ron and Hermione, the sense of whimsy and wonder found in the wizarding world?

I suggest you spend some time reading. Not skimming, not analyzing, just... reading. Like you did before you decided you wanted to write your own stuff. Read like when you fell in love with stories. Read like a reader, not like a writer, as much as possible. After you've read a book, think back on what you enjoyed about it, and what you remember. Then - and only then - reread favorites as a writer, with an eye on how the story was constructed. A lot of what you seem to be calling "filler" is in the eye of the beholder; it wouldn't have made it into print, IMHO, if it was nothing but word fluff (some rare exceptions possibly excluded.)

nickj47 · Aug 1, 2018

I'm one of those readers who just want the author to 'get on with it'. I like to learn about the characters through their actions, past or present, and not through long-winded descriptions. It seems to me the 'popular' authors are pretty good about doing it this way. These revealing actions don't necessarily further the plot, but they're at least entertaining to read.

Harlequin · Aug 1, 2018

In fairness, I dont think that is what the op means

Very few readers enjoy long dry infodumps. But everything can always be shorter. I could convert any of my novels into flash fiction or an elevator pitch.

Shoeless · Aug 1, 2018

Questioner said:
What I'm asking is: is it generally considered okay to have the characters have "free" personalities and developments that don't affect the plot more? Or do I just need to work on my writing-characters-skills more?

I think anything that is not directly related to advancing the plot is okay if you pull it off well. Some dialog can be drop dead boring and do absolutely nothing to advance the plot, other dialog, like the amazing opening of Pulp Fiction doesn't advance the plot but is a smart, hilarious piece of writing that also reveals a ton about the characters even if you still have no idea where they're going or what they're doing. Some description can be boring and make you feel like "GET ON WITH IT," and others are so lyrical and beautiful that they're worth the price of admission alone.

That's not to say that you should indulge in side-plots that go absolutely nowhere, or turn every conversation in the book into an hours long exchange at the cafe. But there CAN be more craft and art to a book beyond just tight plotting. Some of the other writers that are clients with my agent make me absolutely ashamed of my own writing because their prose is so gorgeous, but if I try to write as beautifully as they do, with rapturous descriptions, people are going to call it dull. On the other hand, my characters can really go at it when it's time to open their mouths and start talking, and not every writer is comfortable with just letting characters ramble and have it be fun.

So there are different aspects to the pleasures of a story besides just the plotting. And in some cases, it's those differences in what you make enjoyable that actually distinguish you as a writer from others. It's part of your voice.

Roxxsmom · Aug 1, 2018

Kallithrix said:
Characters have to feel real. They should not just be plot robots that exist only to carry out the actions required for the story. Character *IS* plot. Sometimes it pays off to just create the characters and see where they take the story, rather than creating the story and then dropping in characters to go through the motions to get from A to B. That's when they feel shallow and wooden.

I agree with this post.

Sometimes character development is furthering the story. I don't mean you should spend pages and pages on pointless conversations or scenes that have no bearing on the plot whatsoever, but sometimes the relevance of a scene isn't apparent right away. Not all readers are the same either. Some are very opposed to any story element that isn't just about the plot, while others prefer "lush" stories where the character's world and relationships are very fleshed out.

There are also subplots. Stories can have many threads. To some extent it depends on genre. Readers of epic fantasy, or those who enjoy historical epics, are going to be more tolerant of sideplots and pagination devoted to world building than readers of genres where novels tend to be well under 100k words long.

Toto Too · Aug 1, 2018

As far as enhancing character definition and using characters to drive the plot, is there any danger of unintentional misdirection? Let's say your main character has an addiction to chocolate chip cookies. Just as a quirky character trait to add some depth. At least every chapter or so, the character has to grab some cookies to munch on, and a few times has to run to the grocery store to buy more.

At some point, will the reader expect cookies to become part of the plot? Maybe they anticipate the character will miss an important meeting which sets up the climax, or that the story will get resolved inside the grocery store during a midnight run?

How far can you go with character traits before you risk the reader feeling cheated?

Vhb_Rocketman · Aug 1, 2018

In my opinion character relationships and personalities are what make mediocre plots into good novels. I wouldn't slack on including relationships. The important part is to weave them into the story such that it doesn't feel like filler. That you can only learn from practice and reading.

Harlequin · Aug 1, 2018

How far can you go with character traits before you risk the reader feeling cheated?

pretty much the only limit to anything, is execution. I know that's a non-answer but I feel it's true. (and execution, in turn, is usually just a matter of revision and practice.)

indianroads · Aug 1, 2018

If your reader doesn't relate to your characters, they won't care what happens to them. If your MC is in this category, I doubt anyone will finish your book.

Scenery is also important (IMO) because you want to paint a picture of your world that your can reader can imagine themselves living in.

What's too much or too little is a delicate balance that you have to figure out how to strike.

Just my opinion, YMMV.

blacbird · Aug 1, 2018

Questioner said:
Hello!

I'm very strict regarding filler. I cut out everything that can be defined as filler,.

I was wondering what counts as filler, and what doesn't.

You will never know your character relationships unless you write a story they inhabit. No amount of planning alone will get you there.

caw

Sonsofthepharaohs · Aug 1, 2018

Toto Too said:
As far as enhancing character definition and using characters to drive the plot, is there any danger of unintentional misdirection? Let's say your main character has an addiction to chocolate chip cookies. Just as a quirky character trait to add some depth. At least every chapter or so, the character has to grab some cookies to munch on, and a few times has to run to the grocery store to buy more.

At some point, will the reader expect cookies to become part of the plot? Maybe they anticipate the character will miss an important meeting which sets up the climax, or that the story will get resolved inside the grocery store during a midnight run?

How far can you go with character traits before you risk the reader feeling cheated?

This is a valid point. Character traits and personality quirks can become a sort of Chekhov's gun if you're not careful. I think it's about balance, and giving story elements the appropriate weight. If you don't intend to make something a plot point, don't give it too much page space.

On the other hand, sometimes firing the Chekhov's gun can create a really interesting plot development or lead to an exciting twist that you weren't expecting. For instance, I made my MC (an ancient Egyptian police chief) a bit of a borderline alcoholic who is hardly without a cup of wine in his hand when he's not at work. It fit the story because a lot of the criminal activity he's investigating takes place in taverns, and it's while he's drinking in one that the inciting incident happens. But I didn't really mean for another plot twist to occur when he stumbles home blind drunk and accidentally ends up in bed with someone he really shouldn't... once that can of worms was opened, all kinds of new twists and developments spilled out

So, back to what I said before - sometimes creating the characters makes the plot, rather than the plot making the characters

blacbird · Aug 1, 2018

Kallithrix said:
So, back to what I said before - ~~sometimes~~ MANY MANY MANY MANY TIMES creating the characters makes the plot, rather than the plot making the characters

Edited for clarification and precision.

caw

Dave.C.Robinson · Aug 1, 2018

You can even display character when the individual isn't in the scene. For example, I once explained a character's absence from a scene as being because they were looking for pulp magazines. It's only one line, but it not only explains their absence but tells us things about them as a person.

CalRazor · Aug 1, 2018

Vhb_Rocketman said:
In my opinion character relationships and personalities are what make mediocre plots into good novels. I wouldn't slack on including relationships. The important part is to weave them into the story such that it doesn't feel like filler. That you can only learn from practice and reading.

Yeah, pretty much. I'll stick with a novel containing a hackneyed plot if the characters are well-developed. In some cases, I won't notice how boring the plot is if the personalities are deep enough.

Woollybear · Aug 1, 2018

Toto Too said:
As far as enhancing character definition and using characters to drive the plot, is there any danger of unintentional misdirection? Let's say your main character has an addiction to chocolate chip cookies. Just as a quirky character trait to add some depth. At least every chapter or so, the character has to grab some cookies to munch on, and a few times has to run to the grocery store to buy more.

At some point, will the reader expect cookies to become part of the plot? Maybe they anticipate the character will miss an important meeting which sets up the climax, or that the story will get resolved inside the grocery store during a midnight run?

How far can you go with character traits before you risk the reader feeling cheated?

In the second Mistborn trilogy (Sanderson):

I expected Wayne's proclivity to trade one item for another to lead to part of 'the solution.' He trades (steals) in almost every scene he's in. But if this trait was part of the final key ... I didn't see it.

So I felt sort of ripped off. But, look, who cares? So I was wrong, as a reader. You know what, that's OK. (I was also wrong that Luke and Leia would get married someday.)

There's nothing horrible about Wayne being a funny thief with a raft of funny accents for its own sake. He's allowed. He also likes his hat, and that also had no bearing on anything plot related.

We get too caught up in rules. Wayne is essential to the plot, but some parts of his characterization serve as color and no more.

Your character likes cookies. Some reader somewhere might expect the chocolate chips to be the key to the puzzle. They're wrong. Too bad. You are the author.

mpack · Aug 1, 2018

Toto Too said:
How far can you go with character traits before you risk the reader feeling cheated?

Gandalf and Bilbo blowing smoke rings in Beorn's cottage.

That far.

Maybe farther.

Toto Too · Aug 1, 2018

Kallithrix said:
This is a valid point. Character traits and personality quirks can become a sort of Chekhov's gun if you're not careful. I think it's about balance, and giving story elements the appropriate weight. If you don't intend to make something a plot point, don't give it too much page space.

On the other hand, sometimes firing the Chekhov's gun can create a really interesting plot development or lead to an exciting twist that you weren't expecting. For instance, I made my MC (an ancient Egyptian police chief) a bit of a borderline alcoholic who is hardly without a cup of wine in his hand when he's not at work. It fit the story because a lot of the criminal activity he's investigating takes place in taverns, and it's while he's drinking in one that the inciting incident happens. But I didn't really mean for another plot twist to occur when he stumbles home blind drunk and accidentally ends up in bed with someone he really shouldn't... once that can of worms was opened, all kinds of new twists and developments spilled out

So, back to what I said before - sometimes creating the characters makes the plot, rather than the plot making the characters

What a great answer. I agree - that's the essence of storytelling.

@Patty - I like your answer too. I'm sure it comes down to balance, as Kallithrix mentioned. I imagine that takes skill and a good ear (and/or lot of practice).

BethS · Aug 2, 2018

blacbird said:
You will never know your character relationships unless you write a story they inhabit. No amount of planning alone will get you there.

This. Characters have a habit of expanding to fill their space (or overflow it, in some instances), but you first have to put them in that space. They don't have existence outside the world of the story, except as an idea.

Ari Meermans · Aug 2, 2018

Questioner said:
Hello!

What I'm asking is: is it generally considered okay to have the characters have "free" personalities and developments that don't affect the plot more? Or do I just need to work on my writing-characters-skills more?

I'm unsure of the precise meaning of "developments" here, so I'm going with the short answer "No".

Your story only exists because of who your character(s) are and what they do or fail to do wrt events within the story world they inhabit. Every development must affect your character(s) and the main plot or a parallel/intersecting subplot. If anything in your narrative is superfluous to characterization or the story plot/subplot, it's filler.

Character relationships and personalities

Questioner

Sonsofthepharaohs

Still writing the ancient Egyptian tetralogy

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

CathleenT

I write

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!

Tazlima

Brightdreamer

Just Another Lazy Perfectionist

nickj47

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!

Shoeless

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

Toto Too

Vhb_Rocketman

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!

indianroads

Wherever I go, there I am.

blacbird

Sonsofthepharaohs

Still writing the ancient Egyptian tetralogy

blacbird

Dave.C.Robinson

... with the High Command

CalRazor

Woollybear

mpack

Swooping is bad.

Toto Too

BethS

Ari Meermans

MacAllister's Official Minion & Greeter