Public domain

Do you mean books in the public domain, or are you casting a wider net than that?

For books, I'd check out www.gutenberg.org

You can reference a song title & artist, no problem. Neither are protected by copyright statutes, and all manner of examples exist of such references. Just last night I was reading a mystery novel that mentioned the Rolling Stones and two or three of their famous hits, by title. But lyrics are, of course, an entire other animal.

As for general copyright issues in the U.S., everything published prior to 1923 is in public domain. You do have to be careful to make sure that a particular later edition of something originally published before 1923 is not copyright-protected.

As for the Eliot thing, in the U.S., "The Hollow Men" was published prior to 1923, but "The Waste Land" was published after; therefore the first is in public domain, the second is not.

Canadian, Australian and EU regulations differ, and are based on the date of death of the author, rather than on individual publication dates.

As yet one more complication: for the past 20 years, U.S. copyright term has been static, governed by the Sonny Bono Copyright Extension Act of 1998, which froze that 1923 date in place. That Act runs out at the end of this year, and if no new legislation is brought to bear, stuff published in the year 1923 will lapse into public domain, and the date of copyright protection will advance a year, to 1924. I haven't seen anything about any new legislation in this regard.

caw

The Hollow Men is public domain in the US. It's still under copyright in the UK (yes, even English-language territories will differ in this). Simmons undoubtedly secured the rights to use the poem in 92, because he's Simmons and it was worth the trouble and the $$$.

Having wrestled with some of this myself, I can only say: don't do it. Seriously. Make up some fictional poet. Don't quote something that has the slightest chance of being under copyright anywhere in the world. It's a massive, massive, MASSIVE headache. Save it for when you're a hugely successful authors and you can pay lawyers to do it all properly.

Harlequin said:

It can't be fictional, but I can leave it out or replace with someone/something slightly older.

I knew it was a risk putting all this stuff in, so it's alright.

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Go really old. Nothing 20th century, maybe nothing 19th. And double/triple check for every territory you'll be publishing (and remember you'll need to do it again for translations).

It's possible, don't get me wrong. But it takes serious due diligence, and yes, usually money.

Also, don't presume someone ELSE is using something because it's in the public domain. They may well have paid for the right to use it, or gotten permission to use it free of charge from the creator.

There was a THING once on David Letterman's show, when he asked why his house band never played a certain band's music. The answer was because the band in question demanded some insane fee to use their music (not the regular ASCAP $ the show paid to use anything else that ended up on air), because they didn't want people to. So Letterman said, basically, fuck it, he'd pay. A bit later, his producer said they'd checked and it was like $40,000 for 30 seconds. So he said no, he wasn't going to pay, then made a thing of it for days, during which a couple of bands that were fans said his show could use their music for free.

Mea culpa, my error: I had the current copyright status of "The Hollow Men" and "The Waste Land" bassackwards. "The Waste Land", published 1922, is in U.S. public domain; "The Hollow Men", published 1925, is not. But "Waste Land" would have still been under copyright protection in 1992 (when the U. S. copyright term was 75 years), so Simmons must have, or should have, obtained permission to quote from either of them.

But for lizmonster, seriously, the U.S. copyright term does indeed extend only back to 1923. Anything published prior to 1923 will be in public domain, as far as I can determine. Project Gutenberg has plenty of public domain material as late as 1922.

Some authors, notably Ayn Rand for the short novel Anthem have voluntary released things into public domain. And earlier U.S. copyright terms were different, and required renewal of copyright, which some authors/publishers missed, thereby allowing some things to lapse into public domain. In the U.S., once something is in public domain, it is in public domain permanently.

caw

blacbird said:

But for lizmonster, seriously, the U.S. copyright term does indeed extend only back to 1923. Anything published prior to 1923 will be in public domain, as far as I can determine. Project Gutenberg has plenty of public domain material as late as 1922.

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My big problem was I was also releasing in the UK, and the poem wasn't public domain in the UK. With enough advanced notice I might've been able to get permission - but if it had ever been sold into another territory, never mind translated, I'd've had to go through it all again.

TBF the publisher helped where they could, but when it came down to it, the responsibility was mine and it was turning into a massive tangle (fairly late in the game). Rather than push the point and miss the pub date, I rewrote the chapter without the quotes. (FWIW, Spouse, at least, said he wouldn't have recognized the source of the quotes, so I probably didn't lose much impact by changing it.)

I've actually had to license five or six lines from "The Waste Land." There are multiple editions/versions.

Not all are PD. Should anyone wish to attempt this, the licensee is Faber and Faber for all of the Elliot estate. See also this reasonable explanation.

For some uses of The Wasteland you also have to gain permission from the Estate of Ezra Pound (I.e. the footnotes).

Be aware that if you are licensing you will need to know where the item will be sold, for how much, when, how many copies will be produced, the final page count of the published item, and be able to provide the specific context for what you are using.

It can take six months, easily, for the request to be acknowledged and another six to negotiate terms.

If you're asking for permission by a property controlled by an estate, living relatives may have to say Yes or No, in addition to the actual legal permissions.

Even if you know that the item is public domain, or you have reason to believe you want have to pay, license and get formal permission anyway, because it's better than having your ass sued in court and you will lose, even if you win, because attorneys want to be paid and going to court has costs in and of itself.

Better to avoid the issue.

blacbird said:

In the U.S., once something is in public domain, it is in public domain permanently.

caw

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That changed in 2012, in Golan v Holder. Congress can remove works from public domain. This is an issue largely in terms of "orphan works," but it is an issue. It also affects works that are PD in the U.S. but not elsewhere (this ties in to the Berne Convention), like the U.K or Canada or much of Europe. Note that it applies to text, images, film and music.

Because of this decision, Hitchcock's 39 Steps and The Third Man were removed from public domain.

Sage said:

I found this article helpful about paying for lyrics. There are links to the two biggest music publishers, which have forms to fill out to ask for permission.

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Make very sure that you're contacting all the licensees; when you submit the request include a cover letter that specifically says to please let you know if there are additional licensees you need to contact. Sometimes they have one licensee for the U.S. and another for Europe; if your book will be for sale in Europe, you need to obtain permission for those countries where your book will be.

Even if you're sure you have all the licensees, ask, because it is an indication that you attempted to perform "due diligence". It's precaution that's simple to take, and may save you later.

cornflake said:

There was a THING once on David Letterman's show, when he asked why his house band never played a certain band's music...

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It's funny that you mentioned this. I watched a clip of this recently. It was the Eagles. It's actually $250K that they wanted to play the song. My favorite part is when they play the "CBS commissioned" knockoff version of "Life in the Fast Lane" they called "Supercharger". Nice try, but it just wasn't the same.

One thought I had was if you made up a favorite band of your character, he could quote those songs and throughout the book, the readers would get a taste of the made up band and why your MC likes them. Maybe a favorite song adds more power. Could even be a source of humor, if that's something you're looking for.

You may want to double-check the made up name. You'd be surprised how many of them are real bands, LOL!

Good luck!

Since a European directive of 2006, all European countries have a copyright duration of 70 years after the author's death, and in 2011, the same duration (70 years) was extended to singers and music producers.

This is one of the reasons why Shakespeare remains quotable!

AW Admin said:

That changed in 2012, in Golan v Holder. Congress can remove works from public domain. This is an issue largely in terms of "orphan works," but it is an issue. It also affects works that are PD in the U.S. but not elsewhere (this ties in to the Berne Convention), like the U.K or Canada or much of Europe. Note that it applies to text, images, film and music.

Because of this decision, Hitchcock's 39 Steps and The Third Man were removed from public domain.

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First, a public thanks to Admin for posting this. I didn't know about it. I read (most) of the court ruling, and while typically legalese, it isn't entirely opaque.

All that said, however, I'll fall back on that pre-1923 date for U.S. public domain, at least as it applies to written text. I don't know of a single instance where something published prior to that date has been placed back under copyright protection in the U.S.

Music is a different animal in many ways, as there can be multiple copyright protections: on lyrics, on musical notation, on arrangements, and of course on recordings. It seems that it is with the musical community that the big controversies lie.

And also, someone mentioned the issue of Eliot's "Waste Land", noting that the footnotes in whatever version were still under copyright. Thehe footnotes are not part of the poem, but would constitute a separate work created later.

caw

With all the references to court cases, my instinct is to back off from any advice said here, though most likely it's accurate (I'm 99.9% sure of this anyway...)

Statutory law and case law elements notwithstanding, asking whether you can use certain content as part of what's considered "public domain" are questions likely best reserved for legal professionals. And, the standard practice if I recall in these forums is to not seek legal advice here, but rather to refer you to lawyers skilled in this particular area...

We're not here for legal advice, right?