Company Banning Most Meat

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regdog

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They're not dictating employee diets -- they're letting people bring meat to the office. They're not paying for some meats. I don't allow it in the house -- am I dictating people's diets because I don't serve meat to guests?


They are dictating, by creating financial inequity for meal reimbursement. If an employee wants their reimbursement they have to eat meals the company approves of.


A person going to your house for one meal is not the same thing as a job, where a person may have eat multiple meals a day, or eat out with clients, associates etc.
 

cornflake

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My son just took a job with them. Super carnivore. I hope office mates are safe.

If you get a chance to ask him about Honest Market... heh.

From what I know an employee can ask about medical conditions if they are asking for accommodation (I asked a disability attorney I know, and he said there's some leeway, but he can't give me more info right now). If that's exemption from a policy, that might apply. I'm an out atheist, so my employer would know it was medical. But it's good that you wouldn't make people go on retreats for three days like they company in the OP. And I assume you wouldn't make them travel and enforce where they could eat or what they could eat when you're putting them in a position when they can't be home.


And to persuade you, I'd probably have to tell you how and why it could be life or death for me. Because otherwise, if you had to know what I can and can't eat, for purposes of catering choices or to decide if I can bring the food I need, you'd KNOW it was medical, because you're not an idiot. You might think I am being a scold or zealot or something, but I live with this. I know how in practice this kind of "Oh, it's fine for most people" thing works. Boy, do I know. Tone doesn't come across on the internet, so perhaps you're not annoyed with, perhaps you think I am simply conveying information and discussing. But if you do feel some little bit of annoyance with me, if you think I am being disingenuous or unreasonable, even to a small degree, magnify that feeling, because that's what comes at me when it's not a hypothetical discussion. And I am not annoyed with you, because I understand this is something you likely have no reason to understand in the way I do. But I do try to raise awareness out here in the world when I can.

I'm not at all annoyed -- I hope it didn't come off that way. I've spent most of my life explaining I can't 'pick out the meant,' 'eat around the meat,' 'just eat the meat anyway,' defending a basic personal choice, having people argue endlessly with me about why it's unnatural, going to cause my brains to leak out my ears, etc., having people actually waving meat in my face -- and I don't mention I don't eat it unless it comes up, irl. I don't go around telling people what they should eat (except in my house, heh, but that's generally people I know well, or people don't notice -- I don't put out snack with a big 'THESE HAVE NO MEAT' flag or anything. It's just there and most people don't think twice -- I've literally never been asked 'hey, where's the meat?' about anything I've served.), or discuss it even in restaurants with people except the waitstaff. So while I am lucky enough to not face the challenges you do, and I'm not suggesting this is in any way similar to a medical need (though I presume if I ate meat at this point it'd make me short-term ill, heh), I in some way get the frustration of having to explain/defend for no reason with weirdly aggressive people. I would want to accommodate a medical need, but not by serving meat. I also didn't mean the disclosure as onerous, but I know how many people claim they're allergic to something when they mean they don't like or want it, or who say they're vegetarian, but hey, they want the fish or chicken, or whatever. People are insane and stupid, as a whole, so I was trying, in this theoretical, to couch against 'I'm required to eat meat!' from a bunch of people who just 'can't' eat veg* fare (I can't tell you how many times I've been told that too, by people with no restriction besides they don't want to, which is their choice, just saying.)

It's a disguised cut into an employment benefit. A minority won't be affect because they don't eat meat anyway. The majority will have to either bring their lunch or go out. All in all there will be no impact on the number of cows, chickens and pigs being slaughtered. Just a move of money from the employees' pockets to the company's.

It reminds me of our mayor who one day announced city parks will now on be "naturalized". Nature lovers rejoiced and applauded. When asked about what exactly the mayor meant by "naturalizing", it took a few pointy questions to find out it meant there will no longer be any maintenance - the grass will no longer be mowed, weeds will be freed to grow wild, and bicycle paths won't be groomed no more.

-cb

The majority could just eat something besides meat for lunch. Very few people HAVE to eat meat. If they want to, well, yeah, go outside and buy it yourself. If food options are provided, they are. I've been at meetings with crap I don't want to eat. I don't demand people procure something I'd prefer.

They are dictating, by creating financial inequity for meal reimbursement. If an employee wants their reimbursement they have to eat meals the company approves of.

A person going to your house for one meal is not the same thing as a job, where a person may have eat multiple meals a day, or eat out with clients, associates etc.

Well... granted. Yes, they would. Don't care, sorry.
 

Lyv

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I'm not at all annoyed -- I hope it didn't come off that way. I've spent most of my life explaining I can't 'pick out the meant,' 'eat around the meat,' 'just eat the meat anyway,' defending a basic personal choice, having people argue endlessly with me about why it's unnatural, going to cause my brains to leak out my ears, etc., having people actually waving meat in my face -- and I don't mention I don't eat it unless it comes up, irl. I don't go around telling people what they should eat (except in my house, heh, but that's generally people I know well, or people don't notice -- I don't put out snack with a big 'THESE HAVE NO MEAT' flag or anything. It's just there and most people don't think twice -- I've literally never been asked 'hey, where's the meat?' about anything I've served.), or discuss it even in restaurants with people except the waitstaff. So while I am lucky enough to not face the challenges you do, and I'm not suggesting this is in any way similar to a medical need (though I presume if I ate meat at this point it'd make me short-term ill, heh), I in some way get the frustration of having to explain/defend for no reason with weirdly aggressive people. I would want to accommodate a medical need, but not by serving meat. I also didn't mean the disclosure as onerous, but I know how many people claim they're allergic to something when they mean they don't like or want it, or who say they're vegetarian, but hey, they want the fish or chicken, or whatever. People are insane and stupid, as a whole, so I was trying, in this theoretical, to couch against 'I'm required to eat meat!' from a bunch of people who just 'can't' eat veg* fare (I can't tell you how many times I've been told that too, by people with no restriction besides they don't want to, which is their choice, just saying.)



The majority could just eat something besides meat for lunch. Very few people HAVE to eat meat. If they want to, well, yeah, go outside and buy it yourself. If food options are provided, they are. I've been at meetings with crap I don't want to eat. I don't demand people procure something I'd prefer.

I didn't know if you were annoyed, so I asked. Because when you ask for accommodations, especially if you don't go into detail about why, whether it's required or not, you feel the annoyance. Try going into any discussion about a straw ban or handicapped placard or a company banning meat and post as someone who needs, not wants, but needs, that accommodation and you will endure a deluge of judgment, disbelief, and outright hostility. This is why I asked. Glad you're not annoyed. It's good to hash this stuff out, I think (I deleted a stupid joke about the meat content of the hash. You're welcome).

I'm great about accommodating other diets, so I would make sure if you came to my house, you had something you could eat and that you liked. Even if you said don't bother. I've done it a lot. But how do you know if people just don't like veggies or if they can eat them, but have trouble digesting them so they avoid them, or if like me, they cannot eat them (no lie, last week, I took a bite of my husband's sandwich. We tried to make sure there was no lettuce on that bite. We missed a tiny piece, like smaller than the diameter of a pencil eraser. A speck. Four days later, I was out of the woods. We were deciding between a trip to the ER or just letting nature take its course, because I am in sort of pre-hospice. Technically, I don't have an allergy, and it's not always that bad, but I know it was that lettuce, and I could tell you how, but it's gross). How do you really know? People assume it a lot. The other day I was trying to buy a cookie. I asked if it had nut pieces. Guy said if I am allergic I shouldn't get it. I said I wasn't. I can eat nut butters, but not pieces. He challenged me on that, more than was sane, so I lifted my shirt and introduced him to Babs, my ileostomy stoma (so named because she looks like a baboon's ass. I am not big on naming stuff but it helps to have a code name when you're in public). It was a really good cookie.

It's a lot to explain, is what I am saying, but if we don't explain, people assume we're one of THOSE people who are just pretending we need something when we don't. And you don't always know who has that legitimate need, and treating everyone like a faker hurts those who aren't. Sometimes people don't want to have to flash their stomas, or explain their dietary woes. See, I don't care why you don't eat meat. I just care that you're accommodated when it's something like having to eat or not eat or being able to bring your own food at the least, and not stigmatized. I don't want you to have to pay for your own meal when others in the same position don't just became someone made a policy without considering your needs, or worse, hearing them and dismissing them.

You're policing people and trust me, that's something I experience every time I leave the house. I just got policed in a discussion of straws, because I said I need the ones you can position at certain angles and not have to hold them and some woman asked me if I typed my post or used speech-to-text, as though that has anything to do with anything (I use a combination and I rest a lot while I write and sometimes I just run out of voice and "arms." People with dietary issues get policed all the time. Why add to that? But, yeah, no meat sold in the cafeteria is fine, but making people go off-site to eat something they can? Because it's not just about eating meat. I just sometimes can't eat the non-meat offerings. If I can bring my lunch, which may or may not have meat (would anyone really check?), I'd be cool, personally. So I guess I am asking you to allow people to bring in outside food to your hypothetical business. :)


It always come down to "but some people abuse it." That's why the GOP has a bill to gut the ADA. That's why they might just be able to kill what they call "entitlement programs." That's why where I live they're talking about making handicapped permits harder to get and more expensive and doing away with free parking at metered spaces in certain areas of the city for placard holders (so they don't have to go back to their cars to feed the meter). It's always because some people break the rules, so those of us who don't pay. Here, it's dietary, not disability, but still, it's paying more or going further or asking for an exception that you know may hurt your career or simply set you apart from your co-workers. It's paying for a meal when traveling on business that others get reimbursed for, because you can't (not won't) eat where or how or what your employer wants you to. That some people would chose that (hell, I want a burger and I'll pay myself) doesn't make it fairer for the person who has no choice (and there are plenty, even if it's a smaller amount that can eat anything. It's good to have a conscience, but when that conscience stop shorts of allowing you to accommodate people who need an exception to your policy, it's pretty selective. And I admit policing or not policing who gets that exception may not be something you can bring yourself to do, but being on the other side of that, it's hard to ask, hard if you disclose the reasons, hard if you don't. It doesn't make it easier that it's harder because some people abuse it. The reason it's hard doesn't matter. It's just hard.
 

waylander

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Wrt not reimbursing the cost of meals eaten offsite, but on company business that do not meet their guidelines - is this actually legal?
 

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Wrt not reimbursing the cost of meals eaten offsite, but on company business that do not meet their guidelines - is this actually legal?

Well, that's the question, isn't it.

Of course, our Supreme Court is not likely to be disabused of its majority opinion that employers DO have every right to say how their employees live and breathe.
 

cbenoi1

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The majority could just eat something besides meat for lunch.

Right.

It's like a hotel offering "Free Internet" and you find out there is no Wi-Fi in your room, just the basic RJ45 jack. You've paid for that Internet. It's part of the room package. Only those who have laptops with proper cables have Internet, which is more than likely be people on business trips. Folks on vacation with nothing more than a tablet or a cell just have to find Wi-Fi somewhere else. Or they could just watch TV instead.

-cb
 

Lyv

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Wrt not reimbursing the cost of meals eaten offsite, but on company business that do not meet their guidelines - is this actually legal?
A company did it, according to the linked article. They're out of business, but I don't think that's what took them down.
 

Roxxsmom

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If employers can refuse to cover contraception for employees, it makes sense that employers can legally refuse to enable (as in spend any money) on other lifestyle choices they don't approve of. Whether or not this particular implementation of the principle represents a genuine hardship for workers who eat meat would depend on how dependent they are on the food provided at company events and on financial compensation (I assume this would be for meals eaten while traveling on business). I'd probably eat what I wanted on the road and only ask for compensation for foods that fit the company's criteria. As for company banquets or functions, if they didn't offer any vegetarian or vegan fare that met my tastes (or that I could eat--I am very sensitive to onions and garlic, which tend to be present in large quantities in veggie cuisine), I'd politely go hungry and grab something later. I suppose it could be an issue if they had a weekend retreat with little or no food I could eat. It's already an issue faced by people with various food sensitivities or restrictions.

However, the effect of this policy on meat-eating employees' overall quality of life is going to be pretty small, unless one has a job where they have to travel (and depend on compensation) a lot. This is not to say that the legal precedent established already (with regards to birth control refusal) is something I think of as a good thing overall, and it's a can of worms that can (and already has) extend far beyond food. I expect to hear more about what employers can legally refuse to cover for or allow their employees to do in the future.

One question I have, though, is how employers will know exactly what their employees ate? If I have cereal for breakfast, for instance, do they have any way of knowing if I used cow's milk (if they are holding to vegan standards) or some milk substitute? Did I eat butter on my toast or margarine? Did I sprinkle bacon bits on my salad if I ordered a salad bar for lunch while on the road? These things likely won't be reflected on a receipt.

Regardless, we are in an age where owners and employers have most of the power, and given the political direction of our courts, this won't be changing any time soon.

This particular company may not be restricting what employees can bring in their own lunches, but I am guessing that someone will do so in the future. I wouldn't be surprised if the courts uphold that too, since the company owns their facilities, and they already can place restrictions on what people do/wear/say while at work (and sometimes while not at work too). It won't be long before they have a right to dictate our diets and other aspects of our lifestyles 24-7, the same way employers are allowed to restrict employers from smoking or drinking, even outside of work.
 
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cornflake

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It's a disguised cut into an employment benefit. A minority won't be affect because they don't eat meat anyway. The majority will have to either bring their lunch or go out. All in all there will be no impact on the number of cows, chickens and pigs being slaughtered. Just a move of money from the employees' pockets to the company's.

It reminds me of our mayor who one day announced city parks will now on be "naturalized". Nature lovers rejoiced and applauded. When asked about what exactly the mayor meant by "naturalizing", it took a few pointy questions to find out it meant there will no longer be any maintenance - the grass will no longer be mowed, weeds will be freed to grow wild, and bicycle paths won't be groomed no more.

-cb

I missed this before, but of course it'll have an effect on the number of animals killed. It's an international company that hosts events, has stores, etc., and will no longer be purchasing those meats. That's a lot of cows, chickens, and pigs.

One person going vegetarian even can save dozens of animals a year. A company that hosts events for thousands of employees, has parties for customers, has a store they sell food at? Tens of thousands of animals.
 

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A reminder; please be gentle with each other.
 

cbenoi1

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A company that hosts events for thousands of employees, has parties for customers, has a store they sell food at? Tens of thousands of animals.

Meat serving calculations for a catering event is around 200 - 250g per person of uncooked meat. As a reference, a BigMac uses sightly less than 100g of uncooked meat ( link ). For one event a year for the entire 6000 employees, that's 1,500 Kg, about the weight of two cows. Make it a monthly event and you have about twenty-four cows. Make it a weekly event and you have a hundred cows, give or take. Multiply by some factor to get the actual amount of meat per cow and you still have manageable animal numbers.

To get the number of cows in the thousands range you have to make the assumption every employee in the company and every WeWork customer on the planet will turn vegetarian. That's not going to happen.

-cb
 
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Barbara R.

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Heh, if he starts bringing bbq sauce packets to work, look out.



They're not dictating employee diets -- they're letting people bring meat to the office. They're not paying for some meats. I don't allow it in the house -- am I dictating people's diets because I don't serve meat to guests?

There are some great arguments against consuming meat from a sustainability perspective, as well as moral. But I think they've gone a bit too far. If they're not reimbursing for outside meals with meat, does that means their salespeople can only take potential clients out to vegetarian restaurants?

Also---their employees work very long hours, often during meal times. True, the office is in the heart of NYC and so surrounded by restaurant options; but for those who don't have time to go out, their choices are now strictly limited.
 

cornflake

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Meat serving calculations for a catering event is around 200 - 250g per person of uncooked meat. As a reference, a BigMac uses sightly less than 100g of uncooked meat ( link ). For one event a year for the entire 6000 employees, that's 1,500 Kg, about the weight of two cows. Make it a monthly event and you have about twenty-four cows. Make it a weekly event and you have a hundred cows, give or take. Multiply by some factor to get the actual amount of meat per cow and you still have manageable animal numbers.

To get the number of cows in the thousands range you have to make the assumption every employee in the company and every WeWork customer on the planet will turn vegetarian. That's not going to happen.

-cb

That's not how meat works. Cows aren't made up entirely of uncooked meat. There's also likely stuff served besides beef, and, again, animals are not made up of uncooked meat. Serve 200 employees at one office chicken wings for a superbowl party and you're not using the amount of meat on a wing x 200 to equal two chickens or whatever. It's a fuckload of chickens.

Also, they don't serve food at one company-wide event a year and they're done. They have meetings, parties, etc., etc., etc. They serve food all the time. I've never been at a company that didn't. There are also all the meals the employees are buying on the company dime, and, though you don't agree, the Market offerings. Americans eat close to 300 lbs of meat each, on avg. That's not a piece of a cow (though it's nearly an entire cow's worth of meat), as they eat steaks from more than one cow, chicken wings, breasts, etc., It's a lot of individual animals.

There are some great arguments against consuming meat from a sustainability perspective, as well as moral. But I think they've gone a bit too far. If they're not reimbursing for outside meals with meat, does that means their salespeople can only take potential clients out to vegetarian restaurants?

Also---their employees work very long hours, often during meal times. True, the office is in the heart of NYC and so surrounded by restaurant options; but for those who don't have time to go out, their choices are now strictly limited.

I've eaten at so few vegetarian restaurants I could probably count them on my hands, but I've been a veg since I was a kid. I'd guess they want receipts for meals and reimburse for veg fare only -- tons of Italian, Mexican, Japanese, Chinese, etc., stuff is veg. Heck, I was recently dragged to a steak house by a group (of very old friends, who I joked were the only people who I'd be in a steak house for, but one of whom had checked with the place that they had veggie stuff that was uncontaminated and all. While we were there, someone at an adjoining table exclaimed she couldn't believe her friends took a vegetarian to a steak house, heh.) and had obviously veggie Italian stuff.

People eat veg more than they think, I tend to think.
 

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I have to travel as part of my job. And I can say that the first time the company told me, "Look, you may end up arriving in town at 9:59 pm, after being unable to catch a bite all day. But by God if you don't order the wilted salad plate - you go for a burger instead - we're not paying you for that sort of immorality," I'm out of there.

Sure, the company can hold vegan meetings if they want. But that's freebies. The bit about not reimbursing meals containing meat is a much more draconian position, and one designed, one almost suspects, so they can save on meal reimbursements. "Oh, you're in upstate Iowa, and the hotel restaurant doesn't have a vegetarian menu? Guess it's going to be lettuce without dressing for you, kid."
 

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Right; we've moved off the actual initial topic to a philosophical moral discussion, with implications and aspersions.
 
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