What is the cleanest model for unpacking a complex backstory in fantasy?

I think the only model is just finding balance.

ASOIAF's complex backstory might be more what you're looking for, not the LOTR style.

In Game of Thrones the family history and the Walkers beyond the wall are all introduced gradually and mostly through dialogue, not an info overload.

As with most of you who write in fantasy, you might have some epic diety-like characters, yes? The founders of your universe, some kind of ambiguous god-like characters.

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Adventure fiction and Science Fiction author here - so take what follows with a healthy dose of salt.

So when you establish your realm or plane of existence-how in the world do you unpack that information without completely dragging the reader into a second story?

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I consider my story FIRST, and give the minimum backstory necessary to the tale. If it's not relevant to what's going on, cut it. My characters have backstories that provide motivation for what they do. In this case I mention the history quickly and move on. Again, if it isn't absolutely necessary to the story I leave it out.

Do you establish the realm without any fine details? Or are the diety-like creatures not given descriptions? And if they are, how is it kept tight and to the extent of backstory without sounding like "shiny people on a shiny plane doing shiny things."

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The only details necessary are the ones relevant to the plot.

I'll try to give an example. Let's say you have a scene with two deities on a mountain talking to another that sets up some important piece of the plot. Do I need to establish information about those mountains and the surrounding area?

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No. They're mountains, let your readers experiences and imagination fill in the blanks.

The history of the mountains and why this universe has mountains?

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Is it directly linked to the plot? If not, then No.

My first inclincation is to go to world building, but it just ends up stretching the whole thing on and on. And isn't it a problem to wait a third of the book just to get to the main characters?

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Can you write self-standing interesting books that create your world, the have the conclusion of your far reaching story be the one you have in mind now?

Do you just omit the details of the backstory and cut to the main plot?

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Omit whatever is unnecessary, then tell your story. Yes.

Maybe this is a writing 101 question, but I've been stuck on it for a while. If any of you have a successful method to deal with this, it would be apreciated.

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I'm a pretty junior member here, still struggling to find my butt while using both hands, so please take the sage advice of my seniors over mine. I only wanted to give my POV. YMMV.

hereticdoll said:

Oh, not the main book. Just a secondary book that contains all the excess backstories and world-building for reference. I don't think I would try to have it published or anything.

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Oh, I see. Sorry I misunderstood!

From the short summary you posted of the first part, it sounds like it might be better to keep that more in the background and make the story more about the main protagonist's journey and how he interacts with the world/gods etc. A good example of a story with interactions with deities is Corum: The Prince in the Scarlet Robe/The Prince with the Silver Hand (or the Elric series also by Michael Moorcock) as, despite the worldbuilding being partly covered in a prologue that actually isn't necessary at all for getting a feel of how the world works, the development of the world and how the deities affect it is spread out through the course of the first novel in a natural way.

I can't speak for all fantasies, but most of the ones I've read lately take place in universes where the why and how of their beginning (whether naturally evolved, created by a god or gods, or something in between) isn't really a part of the story or definitively known by the characters within it. For most of the history of our planet people had no idea how the world or themselves came to be, but they still had adventures and wars and epics etc. Of course, people had ideas about how things were that were far from accurate. I do try to work the beliefs and understanding of my characters into the story. Whether or not they are always correct? That doesn't generally matter.

If I were the write a story where the gods are the literal and real creators of your my universe, and if they are acting in the story in an unambiguous and salient way as the story unfolds, I can show this when it becomes relevant. Or I can keep the nature (or even existence) of the gods more vague or ambiguous. My characters tend to be ordinary people trapped in extraordinary circumstances. Even if they are magically talented, they are human first and foremost, so I try to reveal their nature and abilities as the tale unfolds.

As for the backstory of the particular protagonist(s), regardless of their abilities, I tend to focus on revealing what a given viewpoint character would be aware of and thinking about as a scene unfolds. Relevant backstory can come out as the characters act and as they react to the things and events around them, as can the relevant history of the world and the details of how magic works in that world or whatever. I prefer writing in a more character-driven narrative viewpoint (such as first or a somewhat deep limited third), but even if one is writing in omniscient, trying to toss too much backstory out there via long info dumps can be awkward. Even classic fantasy writers like Tolkien confined much of their info dumping to appendices and/or relatively short prologues/intros, and to relatively brief nuggets if information as the story progressed.

Note, I am not a published fantasy writer, and my attempts to become so have not been successful thus far. The views expressed here are my own, based on my own taste.

Check out fantasies by some of your favorite authors, and be sure to include some recent novels as well in your reading. How do these authors provide needed backstory and world building details without bogging the story down and tossing more at the reader than they need to know as the story unfolds.

I'm writing within a universe with powerful gods and creators too. I have struggled with this exact same issue for some time now and reading this thread has already directed me towards a greater understanding of how to write it.
I think that having the warrior descendant of the Akrisos is great way to world build. you can have that character tell backstory and even show it.

I use a lot of dialogue to tell my back story. Characters in my story often consult oracles, elders and scholars for advice and information regarding the strange magical world they live in. This works for because the world is mostly wild and civilizations have not spread until their borders meet. There is a lot of empty space to wonder about and fear. The fear and wonder makes the characters seek out information before traveling too far. I have only written total 20k words in this universe, and most all of it is the indigestible world building fibers that I use to weave my characters path. I have my characters know nothing and the reader knows nothing too. But the world like I said is full of mystery. When a character needs to find information the reader wants it too. At least I think that's what I'm doing.
I have a book suggestion too: Terry Godkinds sword of truth series, AND Robert Jordans Wheel of time series. if you have not read.
Hope this helps.

EDIT: Another way I think you can world build passively is wit ha map. have the key note ancient places where important events of the worlds origin happen.

Will Collins said:

I think the only model is just finding balance.

ASOIAF's complex backstory might be more what you're looking for, not the LOTR style.

In Game of Thrones the family history and the Walkers beyond the wall are all introduced gradually and mostly through dialogue, not an info overload.

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I think a good way of explaining it, as has been mentioned a couple times previously already, is that additional details come up as appropriate and when relevant. Like, during the execution that starts the first book, you don't have Jon Snow giving the complete history of the wall, the walkers beyond it in a big, and the Stark's relationship to all of that in a 'as you know,' info dump.

It's one of the problems of writing fantastic fiction is that it involves creating worlds with so many amazing ideas, cool background, and things going on that we want to clue in the readers as soon as possible. But that rarely ever leads to good storytelling. World Wars 2 is incredibly important to the state of the world today, but a contemporary story that drops a reference to it isn't going to include an overview of the whole war to explain it. Likewise, even a book with heavy christian themes probably wouldn't flow very well if it felt the need to spell out everything from 'Let there be light,' to revelation. Even if it hurts to not reveal all the cool background you've developed, you have to realize it might not be necessary to the story right then, and it might never be, and the final product will be better for its lack.

Hey hereticdoll,

I would tend to agree with the comments that suggest keeping exposition to a minimum and drip-feeding the necessary details as you go along. I've been world building for a longer story for a while now but am currently writing short stories to improve how I write before I jump in and that has helped teach me to cut deep when it comes to anything superfluous. What I would ultimately like to do for the novel I'm building the lore for is to know everything about the world but use as little of that as I can get away with.

However, that's just me and I am in no way, shape, or form an expert on anything (I'm also a complete newbie on this forum)! As others have commented, there are many methods, and the most important thing is that it suits you and your style. Stories in third-person omniscient with a narrator (CathleenT mentioned Terry Pratchett) can have great passages of exposition that feel more like a co-conspirator whispering in the reader's ear. Even where a lot of a story is in third-person limited, passages of exposition can be elegantly included, like in Clarke's Rendezvous with Rama.

If you did want to strip back the lore, it could be fun to show it in a secondary. You could have your MC's take part in a religious ritual where the history of the gods and where they live is part of the sermon, or pass a zealot on a soapbox shouting about the gods on a busy street.

Tris

CathleenT said:

My personal advice is to dole out backstory like you're giving M&Ms to a two-year-old in a crowded store.

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Or phrased another way, weave the backstory only as needed, only when needed. Jo Walton calls this "incluing". (Link)

--Beth (epic fantasy author)

Unpacking is a good word to use in this instance IMO.

Every summer I take a few long trips on my motorcycle. In preparation I consider the number of days I'll be on the road, and whether any places I might stay would have a laundry. I pack ONLY what I'll need.

After a day in the saddle I get a room in a hotel / motel (I'm well past the age where camping is a pleasant option), and that evening I take from my luggage ONLY what I'll need the next day.

So my advice is t pack only what you need, and to use only what's needed for a scene or chapter.

That said, there is caveat. If you're world building, you need to unload a bit more initially so the reader knows where they are. Revealing that your story takes place in a dystonian future on a distant planet a hundred pages into your book is IMO a bad idea.

I'm currently writing two fantasy books at once, one which has a large pantheon of gods so I have some experience with this.

My advice is to not let the backstory get in the way of your story. I found the summary you gave us of Lon interesting and very to the point, but I'd say you don't need much more in terms of length when you deliver it. That summary in itself is enough. Stories like Lon's feel so powerful because there's so much mystery in them. You might think that adding more would make his presence bigger but in most pantheon mythologies the Zeus/Odin/Ra usually only have minor roles in most of the stories, but their actions when they do and the frequency of their appearances compared to other gods is what gives them their presence. If you want to tell us more about Lon then you can do it through his children, how they think of their father, his wife and how he speaks to them. Learning how all the gods relate to each other gives perspective and makes the world feel connected.

About putting it into the book, it doesn't seem like the kind of thing that would come up in daily conversation so perhaps some kind of prayer/sermon with these cultists or some kind of lesson that is being taught from it. You could also give us some of Lon's perspective, but I think the key to telling good backstory is to get the reader asking questions and leaving enough gaps so that the audience can do some of the work for you, let their imaginations run wild. We don't have to understand everything straight away. And if it was his perspective perhaps he would lie or there would be a different telling of the events, myths become just the points that people remember, some are forgotten.

indianroads said:

If you're world building, you need to unload a bit more initially so the reader knows where they are.

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Not necessarily. It's pretty easy to establish in Paragraph One that a story is set in an unusual or strange world, without needing to divulge much detail about that world. The details can come along when they are needed and relevant. "But the reader needs to know this . . ." is a common error among writers, especially in the Fantasy genre. At the beginning, the reader needs to know exactly one thing: That this is a story worth the time and energy to read. That is true in any genre. As a writer, if you obscure that reader necessity behind a cloud of background information, even a little, you risk losing the reader's trust in the story.

caw

I think it depends on the reader. Some are comfortable being led through the unknown, others (I'm one of them) lose interest.

blacbird said:

Not necessarily. It's pretty easy to establish in Paragraph One that a story is set in an unusual or strange world, without needing to divulge much detail about that world. The details can come along when they are needed and relevant. "But the reader needs to know this . . ." is a common error among writers, especially in the Fantasy genre. At the beginning, the reader needs to know exactly one thing: That this is a story worth the time and energy to read. That is true in any genre. As a writer, if you obscure that reader necessity behind a cloud of background information, even a little, you risk losing the reader's trust in the story.

caw

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You are absolutely correct, and I think those first few paragraphs work better by showing rather than telling. Not sure if I'd describe the writing of the first paragraph as 'pretty easy' though; it takes me a while to find my character, start feeling what he does, then sculpt that into showing the first glimpse of the world he lives in. Sometimes it comes easier than others... for my WIP it took thinking about it while washing my bike, then sleeping on it that night - then I started in, and it still fought me a bit. I eventually got it, version 1 is rough but it works.

nickj47 said:

I think it depends on the reader. Some are comfortable being led through the unknown, others (I'm one of them) lose interest.

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I didn't say, or mean to imply "being led through the unknown". My point is that skillful writers can establish a reasonable "known" setting very quickly without much blatant "this is how the world works" stuff. My comment was meant to be cautionary, not prescriptive.

I read a lot of mysteries, in various flavors of that genre. Mystery writers tend to be very good at starting a story with "story", and bringing in setting details when they become relevant. It's a narrative style I like, and try to apply in my own writing as much as possible. But it is, IMO, applicable across all genres of fiction.

caw

Agreed. It does take a skill, almost an intuition, to get it right. And it is applicable to all genres.

I guess what I object to most are openings that try to draw you in by not telling you anything, like the author hopes you'll keep reading to find out more. That may work with some readers, not me.

There's a difference between being coy and being intriguing. The line is subjective and drawn at different points for different readers, though.

If I get the sense the author knows what they're doing, then I'm happy to sit back and let it roll out. For good writing and a bold promise, I will risk disappointment.

But if I get the sense they're just lost up their own arse and pretending not to be, then I'm likely to bail rather quickly.

I think I avoided the problem of having so much backstory by making the key content integral to the plot. i.e. my characters are going to find out that the official events of 500+ years ago, as written in history books, are modified from the true version of events. My characters will then be desperately working to find out why, and what the true version of events are. This interweaves with Gods, wars, the rise and fall of various kingdoms. That takes place over 3 books, avoiding any sort of massive info dump. I think .

But as a lot of people said, with information regarding my fantasy world in general, things come as and when they are relevant. Sprinkled evenly as the prose advances.

But then again, I am just a hobby writer (nothing remotely near publishing) so take my thoughts with a grain of salt .