Would you buy a whip as a viable weapon?

Indiana Jones is the only person I have seen using a whip, as a weapon. On screen, it looks convincing and makes a satisfying crack. I believe in reality it would not be a practical weapon. Would you need to get it off a belt?. Whips have an optimum distance to work effectively. I not sure exactly what you have in mind, but how about a long cane, that could be used like a blunt sword.

There's a fantastic Tumblr blog I follow, How To Fight Write. Here's what they have on whips.

http://howtofightwrite.tumblr.com/search/whip

Maybe this would help?

^ wow, interesting resource - thanks for sharing.

I've seen a good number of movies where a character uses a whip as a weapon. (I watch a lot of martial arts movies.)

The Sarmatians, who sound similar to your culture, use lassos in a similar way to you describe. I see no reason a whip wouldn't work just as well, but they would need to carry something to finish off true enemies (as opposed to rival raiders) that have been pulled to the ground. A short lance/spear seems ideal.

Seconding How to Fight Write's writeup on the subject. As they point out, your characters will definitely need a backup plan to deal with threats in close range like a knife, sword, club or spear. You might also consider the bola as a throwing weapon for the situations you describe

IIRC, whips were standard equipment among Scythian warriors, though the weapon that defines horse archers is always going to be their bows, and then swords and axes for (rarer, as you stated) one-on-one combat. Whips could be an effective weapons for terrorizing poor villagers and farmers, less effective against an evenly matched foe. But I see no reason why it couldn't become a trademark weapon of theirs, even if you have to apply 'rule-of-kewl' a bit to get epic whip fights going.

(Looking forward to reading it!)

In your setting, it should work. Keep in mind they're no good for close combat though.

Would I buy one? No. At a distance, I'm in no danger unless faced with a firearm a whip can do nothing against. And close combat requires anything BUT a whip.

Rule One: do NOT use a movie as research. They are about entertainment, not accuracy. Might as well learn about WW2 by watching Hogan's Heroes or Dad's Army.

Rule Two: find actual cultures similar to what you want and extrapolate from there. George Martin did that with various cultures and their history, just adding magic, dragons, and plenty of nookie.

A tribal steppe culture that came to my mind are the Mongols, whose primary weapon was the bow. The high front and back of their saddles allowed them a strong platform to shoot in any direction. http://genghiskhan.fieldmuseum.org/explore/photo-gallery/weapons

Cracking a whip takes a lot of effort and training, and when charging into battle, you can easily whack your own army pals if they're riding too close, and even tangling your own horse's legs if things go wrong. Not every rider is going to be that good with it.

Then there are the Cossacks: https://aksem62.com/traditional-cossack-weapons-2/cossack-whip-nagaika/

Which seems more in line with what you want, but it is certainly shorter than a Western bullwhip. It can be lethal, though.

As for rustling cattle, that was quite the thing to do in Scotland, and they weren't careful about who got hurt. There is no kind, gentle way to rob herdsmen of their living. Their weapons would be firearms, blades, and surprise.

Does this sound reasonably plausible?

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The way that question is phrased means you really want a yes for a reply.

I will say, yes, it is possible, but suggest doing some serious research. Plenty of history sites are on the 'Net, it's not all Wikipedia. I've found serious research always turns up a much better idea than my original one.

Might want to look at some videos; whip-using is an actual competitive event.

Look up the nine section chain whip (or just chain whip) on youtube.

https://youtu.be/vcPr-AP1Vss

It's an impressive weapon but very difficult to master. My closest friend is a Sil-Lum Kung Fu Master, and the chain whip is his specialty.

Ravioli said:

In your setting, it should work. Keep in mind they're no good for close combat though.

Would I buy one? No. At a distance, I'm in no danger unless faced with a firearm a whip can do nothing against. And close combat requires anything BUT a whip.

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Actually that's not true. Whips, like chains and ropes can be used with two hands to trap an opponent's attack and/or choke them out. It's a beautiful and devastating weapon but it takes a lot of practice to use well (and not hurt yourself in the process).

ETA: link to a youtube video about using a belt to trap and disarm an opponent in close quarters. A whip can be used the same way.

https://youtu.be/IujYX4rLsiQ

Modern Indiana Jones type bullwhips weren't really known to steppe people. They used whips on their horses, but horsewhips are a lot smaller and don't make very good weapons. However, they did use lassos and, maybe better as a weapon, lasso poles. These were long poles with rope loops on the end of them for snagging livestock. Something like that modified for fighting might be useful not just as a snagging, pulling, or choking weapon, but also as a striking weapon. This was never done in real life, but this is fiction so what the heck.

Whips of all types take some range to use so an ability to maintain range is necessary. The consensus that they are very difficult to use effectively should also indicate that the same amount of practice on a different weapon type would tend to yield better results.

Whips usually seem to be used in a position that is already dominant (use on livestock, use on slaves, etc.) and much less in evenly matched adversarial situations.

IMO whips are inferior to virtually every other common choice for the vast majority of ancient and classical uses of weapons. I imagine a typical greek phalanx, mongol archer squadron, or assyrian chariot platoon could easily defeat ten times their number in whip-wielders. Whips are useless for hunting, too, so even peasants barred from owning military weapons probably wouldn't prefer them unless there was no other choice. A short spear or sling is far more deadly.

Telergic said:

IMO whips are inferior to virtually every other common choice for the vast majority of ancient and classical uses of weapons. I imagine a typical greek phalanx, mongol archer squadron, or assyrian chariot platoon could easily defeat ten times their number in whip-wielders. Whips are useless for hunting, too, so even peasants barred from owning military weapons probably wouldn't prefer them unless there was no other choice. A short spear or sling is far more deadly.

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OP mentioned your grievances in the original post. True, archers and swordsmen could defeat whips, but OP is setting up their society so that situation would probably never occur. The Gentleman's agreement is what makes whips work in OP's situation. It's not going to be a free-for-all against ancient and classical weapons.

From what I read in the OPs initial post, these would be used almost like coup sticks more than actual offensive weapons. I suspect if they were used, they'd be much shorter than what most of us think of as a bullwhip, as they're meant to be used while mounted.

Every weapon has it's advantages, whichever one is best to use depends on the circumstance. If the OP's MC typically uses whips in his or her occupation, then they would be adept at their use. In singular combat (and often in multiple opponent situations) whoever controls the distance will prevail. Which weapon would do that? It depends on the environment (urban environment or prairie), the skill level of the combatants and their preferred weapons. Mental state also plays an important role - but that's a different rabbit hole.

Have you considered some kind of flail? Those were much more widely used as weapons than whips.

The thing about a whip is that its not meant for fighting so much as handling. It's intended to cause pain without actually inflicting injury. A whip lash a crossed the back will hurt like hell but is just a flesh wound. This is why they are used for handling animals or slaves, it will inflict pain to encourage obedience with doing anything to make them less useful.

Whips are used in a lot of SF/F because...well they make good television. Back in the day people would do whip tricks, toss a coin in the air and lash it with their whip or knock a hat off someone's head without touching them. Indiana Jones carries a whip but he uses it more like a tool then a weapon, seriously he uses it more times to swing to safety then to actually hurt someone. When they are used in SF/F they usually have something to make them more deadly, like electricity or fire or something. There was a cartoon in the 80's where the villain used a whip that was venom tipped, like a pair of snake fingers on the end of a whip.

I could see a tribal society using whips if a lot of their daily lives revolve around their live stock and their idea of warfare is mostly just stealing horses and cows.

You could put something like hooks or sharp knife blades at the end of a whip, I have a character that uses a "knife whip" with many small razor sharp blades at the ends of the whip.

ipsbishop said:

You could put something like hooks or sharp knife blades at the end of a whip, I have a character that uses a "knife whip" with many small razor sharp blades at the ends of the whip.

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Look up 'chain whip' on YouTube.

Yeah, tactically long whips are terrible. Their range is really limited to a sphere of influence where the momentum works, and require incredible precision. Locks and chokes are great for one-on-one combat at close range, if difficult to master, but in a group combat situation against multiple opponents with longer weapons or arrows, it becomes a little tactically-challenged, in my mind. Short whips, like what horse riders use now, is more feasible, but less useful in actual fighting than even an arm-length hard, wooden stick.

In my wild youth doing lots and lots of Japanese Karate, I spent quite a lot more time than I should have trying to get good at nunchuku, and if I was in an actual fight with a person trying to kill me, I'd reach for the stick weapon every single time first. In a fight, lots of moving parts are not your friend. (Having sparred with nunchuku against people who knew what they were doing with another, less random weapon, I am very suspicious that flails were not really used by real soldiers in battle except perhaps as part of very specific teams, where there was some job to be done that only a flail could do. On horseback, they would be too dangerous to the horse! On foot, too dangerous to nearby footmen! Modified farm implements for pickup soldiers, at best! Likely ornamental! By itself against an axe or decent swordsman? Woof. Good luck with that. Heck, maces were more effective than flails: Does the same sort of job against armor, but you can actually aim your strikes to the right spots effectively in chaos situations! Imagine trying to aim a flail in full plate with limited vision! I am not a medievalist, but... I tried it out with nunchuku and thought, wow. No. This really doesn't work without a level of training better spent with something actually useful, like Tonfa!)

Sabres were designed with horse combat in mind, because the curved blade would cut better in motion and the short length meant it was safer for the horse (who was more expensive and harder to replace than the rider upon its back!) and beyond that the huge tactical advantage of horses has nearly always been mobile archery. Fast, nimble archers with fast, nimble sabres would cut through whip-warriors like butter. And, they wouldn't require a lifetime of extremely intense training to be effective with those weapons, either. It also has lots of implications for hunting on horseback, which is much easier done with bows and javelins than something as delicate and unpredictable as a rope. The lasso and stick-lasso examples, above, which I find more feasible than a whip, is still only as good as the blade of the opponent, who can presumably cut the rope.

Being different with weapons is not easy to do among humans. Generations of very practical, very deadly people developed tools and tactics for their scenarios and lived to tell the tale.

Now, if it's magic, okay. Lots of magic whips. An army of jedi whip masters. Sure. But...

Have to agree with badducky, I also don't buy whips as feasible weapons. The only scenario I can see it working, is a duel with ritualistic/sports-like elements -- ie. it's like boxing or some other form of combat sports where there are lots of rules, or it's part of a culture that has just developed and retains unspoken rules of honor (like pistols at dawn and such). Having studied history of warfare, modern tactics and operational art, and trained with one or two weapons too many, there are a lot of things I don't buy as feasible in speculative fiction, but I still read it, because I enjoy it regardless. It's the same with all "unrealistic" features in fantasy: if it has a positive effect on the work overall (be it working as a plot point, defining characters, etc.) I happily brush realism aside and enjoy the ride. I think most readers are like this, and writers shouldn't worry too much about these things and just write compelling stories with solid internal logic. Well, maybe hard SF would the exception to that rule.

(Oh, on the flail. While the one handed version of the flail has never seen actual widespread use, or at least lacks credible historical evidence, the two handed version has been used by peasants in revolts and is well documented in German fighting manuals. So I'd say 'modified farm implements for pickup soldiers' is pretty accurate.)

Absolutely, if we are talking pure fiction, you can justify anything. Go for it. Whips have a cool factor to them, and have been used in many fictional ways, just have to stretch the imagination to describe how it's used. You arent writing a documentary, so go crazy.