Why is money so taboo in writing?

quianaa2001

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It's kinda frustrating to look up agents or trying to research deals and can't find any deal amounts listed. When researching agents I like to look at how much their latest deals were worth. It goes into a small section that is out weighed by personality, interests and other things but to me it's still important.
It feels like in the writing and publishing world that money is a taboo topic where numbers are a hush-hush thing, which frustrates me. I KNOW I'm not the next JK or anything but I think the lack of transparency in how much most writers make adds to that whole "I just need to sell one book and I'll be set for life!"
I hope I'm making sense? lol.

Anyone else understand where I'm coming from?

Money isn't the be all end all of course. Someday I hope to just be able to make a living doing what I love (don't we all lol :D)

Any thoughts?
 

Earthling

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Yes, it's really frustrating as writers that we have to dig so deep to find financial information, but you must be able to see it from the other side, too? Where I'm from, at least, people don't talk about their salaries or how much they paid for something unless they're asked directly - and asking directly can easily be considered rude. Businesses tend to keep financial information confidential unless it's required by law to be released.

If people ask me about my job, for example, I wouldn't tell them my salary. Even if somebody was looking for advice to get into my area of work, I would give them a salary range they could expect rather than tell them what I earn. If somebody asked me directly, "What's your salary?" I would probably tell them, but I'd definitely hesitate. It's just not done​.

It's the same with agents. It's not just their information for give; there are publishers and authors involved who might not want the world knowing how much they earned from a deal.

Publishers Marketplace gives you some idea, though it would be nice if it differentiated between deals with no advance and deals with a small advance.
 
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cornflake

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It's kinda frustrating to look up agents or trying to research deals and can't find any deal amounts listed. When researching agents I like to look at how much their latest deals were worth. It goes into a small section that is out weighed by personality, interests and other things but to me it's still important.
It feels like in the writing and publishing world that money is a taboo topic where numbers are a hush-hush thing, which frustrates me. I KNOW I'm not the next JK or anything but I think the lack of transparency in how much most writers make adds to that whole "I just need to sell one book and I'll be set for life!"
I hope I'm making sense? lol.

Anyone else understand where I'm coming from?

Money isn't the be all end all of course. Someday I hope to just be able to make a living doing what I love (don't we all lol :D)

Any thoughts?

Do you want your financial information posted on the Internet? Neither do most writers.

Also, amount of a deal isn't indicative of anything unless you know all the particulars -- structure of the deal, who the author is (debut, other books, other areas), what the book is and where it fits, why the house made the deal it did (maybe they have three other similar titles on their calendar and think the one you're looking at is the tail end of something but took a flier, maybe they think it's the next hot thing) including their marketing budgets, etc., related....
 

quianaa2001

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It's the same with agents. It's not just their information for give; there are publishers and authors involved who might not want the world knowing how much they earned from a deal.

Publishers Marketplace gives you some idea, though it would be nice if it differentiated between deals with no advance and deals with a small advance.

That would be really, really good. I guess I would want that info more than anything
 

ChibiUsagi

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This is by design. We have to ask author's permission before we go splashing all the details online.

Guess what most of them say?

No. Even the ones who make a lot, still no.
 

quianaa2001

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Do you want your financial information posted on the Internet? Neither do most writers.

You're totally right! I didn't think about it from that side.

I'm sorry if it came across short sighted and/or rude by wondering.
 

novicewriter

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I don't know if you've already read this, but it's an unofficial 2017 survey that asked some published YA authors the range of their advance, how much they earned the previous year, etc. There also were surveys for picture book and MG authors. Of course, it's not perfect because they weren't able to ask every single YA author, but some still found it useful for giving a realistic idea of what some authors are offered.
https://hannahholt.com/blog/2017/10/19/writing-for-young-adults-a-look-at-the-numbers

I'd guess that one of the reasons why agents might not reveal their clients' advances is because they want to prevent future publishers offering them a similar amount that was last given to them (e.g., if it was a low offer), rather than offering a larger advance.

I've read of a few authors who were given high advances, that were announced in newspapers, but of course, that isn't the norm for most writers in the industry.
 
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AW Admin

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Some contracts stipulate that you can't divulge privileged information, and neither can the publisher or agent.
 

Dennis E. Taylor

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Part of the problem, of course, is that remuneration in this industry ranges all the way from bupkis to millions. Scalzi, for instance, got a low-seven-figure deal for 13 books, IIRC. FWIW, Scalzi is one of a minority of authors who will talk publicly and unabashedly about his income.

Also, in addition to the natural reticence about discussing your income in public, there's the concern about looking like a braggart. (That may be more of a Canadian thing, though ;) ) Or the concern about envy. We had a recent thread on AW from someone who was getting a lot of negativity from 'friends' because he had an agent and they didn't. Or on kboards, where a well-known member hit the big time and ended up having to step away from the forum because of reactions to her success.
 

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I don't know if you've already read this, but it's an unofficial 2017 survey that asked some published YA authors the range of their advance, how much they earned the previous year, etc. There also were surveys for picture book and MG authors. Of course, it's not perfect because they weren't able to ask every single YA author, but some still found it useful for giving a realistic idea of what some authors are offered.
https://hannahholt.com/blog/2017/10/19/writing-for-young-adults-a-look-at-the-numbers

Thanks for posting that! Such an interesting read.
 

Fuchsia Groan

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Yeah, blogs by writers who have chosen to be transparent about their income, like Hines and Hurley, can be illuminating. So can anonymous writer surveys, though small and self-selected samples are an issue there.

I understand very well why most of us choose not to reveal hard figures (advance or, later, sales). But I also worry there's a lot of misinformation floating around. OTOH, you have the huge deals that get reported in the media. On the other, there are other parties (often self-publishing evangelists) insisting that advances barely exist anymore for non-celebrity debuts in trade publishing. Someone who makes her living as a writing coach told me this. I had to tell her my bank account begged to differ, though I didn't say by how much.
 
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Dennis E. Taylor

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Y'know, this is an interesting enough subject that I've emailed my agent to ask his opinion about the whole idea. I'll paraphrase his response when it comes in.
 

Dennis E. Taylor

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Ethan didn't really have a lot to add. It's mostly a personal preference thing, with the caveat that contracts with publishers may prohibit discussion of specific royalty percentages (although not the actual income you receive).
 

cool pop

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Why is the amount of money so important though? Just the fact that an agent made a decent deal with a publisher would be interesting to me if I was interested in subbing to the particular agent. I don't need to know the exact amount of money. I find that if it's a huge deal most times the numbers are reported. Like if the deal is in the millions but many times not.

I am an ex-trade author turned indie author and what I don't get the most about being indie is how so many indie authors flash their incomes around. It's fine if you want to do that but maybe I'm old school because I feel like an author's income or what they get from a deal is their business. Some authors claim they share figures as a way to inspire others what they can do. That's fine but I have also seen it where authors use it as way to look down on others like, "I make six figures so you gotta listen to me because I know everything." I don't agree with that attitude and I don't think just because someone makes a lot of money it means they are smarter than everyone else.

So while, it's cool to see all the indie authors or whoever who make good money, that's great. But I would never tell my income. It's no one's business and I don't see how what someone else makes from their books can help someone else. Why? Because there are tons of variables to selling books such as being lucky. Luck and hitting a market at the right time among other things folks can't control contribute to sales and income, etc.

I also don't believe many of the ones shouting how much they make all the time. How do we know it's true? I can say I make 10 million dollars a year sitting up here under an anonymous name with a catwoman avatar. Is someone gonna believe that? That's what I see a lot of, people popping up on forums and claiming they make a lot of money yet they are anonymous and won't name their books or pen name. Anyone can say anything. Some people do it just to appear a big shot. What's funny is how so many people on forums take the person's word for it.

I believe the authors who are on FB more because they aren't hiding. But anyone can post on a forum anonymously and pretend they are making lots of money. That can be dangerous when they start doling out advice that might be harmful to newbies who hope to follow in these people's footsteps.
 

cool pop

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Some contracts stipulate that you can't divulge privileged information, and neither can the publisher or agent.

So true! People who have never worked with publishers don't understand this. And, that's not a dig at anyone just pointing this out. I see a lot of self-published authors asking why trade authors are so mum with their earnings and they don't understand at some publishing companies, you aren't allowed to divulge this information.
 

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Why is the amount of money so important though? Just the fact that an agent made a decent deal with a publisher would be interesting to me if I was interested in subbing to the particular agent. I don't need to know the exact amount of money. I find that if it's a huge deal most times the numbers are reported. Like if the deal is in the millions but many times not.

I assume you're familiar with the "good/nice/significant etc. deal" terminology. (See the second comment at the link.) Plenty of not-in-the-millions deals get reported.

To get back to the original question: I think one reason writers may not talk about it is that the amount one is paid for a particular book isn't really an indicator of anything, including how much one might get paid for the next book. Writing is piecework, and for most writers the next gig isn't anything like guaranteed. A good deal for one book doesn't mean you'll even be able to sell the next one. I could average out my income over the last three years for you, but that number would be meaningless.
 

Girlsgottawrite

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I don't know if you've already read this, but it's an unofficial 2017 survey that asked some published YA authors the range of their advance, how much they earned the previous year, etc. There also were surveys for picture book and MG authors. Of course, it's not perfect because they weren't able to ask every single YA author, but some still found it useful for giving a realistic idea of what some authors are offered.
https://hannahholt.com/blog/2017/10/19/writing-for-young-adults-a-look-at-the-numbers

Thanks for the link! This is great info.

I assume you're familiar with the "good/nice/significant etc. deal" terminology.

Something else I didn't understand until now. Thanks!!
 

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I assume you're familiar with the "good/nice/significant etc. deal" terminology. (See the second comment at the link.) Plenty of not-in-the-millions deals get reported.

To get back to the original question: I think one reason writers may not talk about it is that the amount one is paid for a particular book isn't really an indicator of anything, including how much one might get paid for the next book. Writing is piecework, and for most writers the next gig isn't anything like guaranteed. A good deal for one book doesn't mean you'll even be able to sell the next one. I could average out my income over the last three years for you, but that number would be meaningless.


Miss Snark, wow! :Wha: I haven't checked that blog in over 10 years. I saw the post is from 2006. Is she still doing her blog? Also, interesting to know about lower deals being reported. I admit, I don't read the industry reports, Publishers Weekly or anything reporting deals on the regular anymore. Haven't in years so the only deals I see are the huge mega deals when money is mentioned. But I also see a lot of "big" deals where money isn't mentioned either. I rarely see smaller deals where money is mentioned but as I said, I don't keep up with deals agents and trade pubs are making these days because being indie I am naturally in other circles now. Another thing is, it's easier to see the details of the huge deals because those are the ones everyone talks about so I hear about those from other authors and on forums, etc.

I would always rather my income or how much I get stay my business. I wouldn't mind if I'd gotten a major deal and they said, "She got a seven figure deal!" That's fine but personally, I don't feel like everyone needs to know the numbers. I mean, what difference does it make to know? Someone else's advance has nothing to do with another author. Just because Suzy G got an author a million dollar deal definitely doesn't mean she will or CAN for all her clients. So many things depend on why authors are offered what they are offered whether authors are with the same agent or not. It comes down to the publisher of course and an agent can't make a publisher give you a mega deal.

Suzy might not even be able to sell the next author's work! :tongue
 
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lizmonster

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Also, interesting to know about lower deals being reported.

Publishers Marketplace reporting is voluntary, but out and about on social media I see a lot of them. And I don't think I've seen a single one that's 7 figures. (The only one I've heard of directly was John Scalzi's 10 year, 13 book deal from Tor, and that's not 7 figures per book. Not sure how SFF advances stack up against other genres, though.)

I would always rather my income or how much I get stay my business. I wouldn't mind if I'd gotten a major deal and they said, "She got a seven figure deal!"

Keep in mind, too, that 7 figures sounds great (and is!), but a) you don't get it all up front; and b) how good it is depends on how long you have to live on it.

So many things depend on why authors are offered what they are offered whether authors are with the same agent or not. It comes down to the publisher of course and an agent can't make a publisher give you a mega deal.

AFAIK a publisher isn't going to give a "rock star" agent a better offer than any other agent. They're looking for a book they can sell. A more experienced agent may have stronger relationships with editors, and may be able to get your book read (or read more quickly) where another agent may not, but the publisher isn't paying for the agent. They're paying for you.

Suzy might not even be able to sell the next author's work! :tongue

Or, in fact, the million-dollar author's next work.
 

cool pop

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Publishers Marketplace reporting is voluntary, but out and about on social media I see a lot of them. And I don't think I've seen a single one that's 7 figures. (The only one I've heard of directly was John Scalzi's 10 year, 13 book deal from Tor, and that's not 7 figures per book. Not sure how SFF advances stack up against other genres, though.)



Keep in mind, too, that 7 figures sounds great (and is!), but a) you don't get it all up front; and b) how good it is depends on how long you have to live on it.



AFAIK a publisher isn't going to give a "rock star" agent a better offer than any other agent. They're looking for a book they can sell. A more experienced agent may have stronger relationships with editors, and may be able to get your book read (or read more quickly) where another agent may not, but the publisher isn't paying for the agent. They're paying for you.



Or, in fact, the million-dollar author's next work.

Agreed on all accounts, Liz. :)
 

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For me the benefit of transparency is that it allows me to see the midrange. The PM deal terminology isn't very specific ($1 and $50,000 are both a "nice deal," IIRC, but for those of us who are smaller fish there's a pretty huge difference between those amounts). Huge deals get lots of publicity; so do scams and publishers that don't pay authors or go out of business. What we don't hear about as much are the medium deals and whether it's possible to live on that kind of income.

So when I seek out blog posts and surveys of writer income, I'm looking for a reality check and sometimes practical advice (usually, the take-away seems to be "Don't quit your day job unless you have steady foreign rights income coming in").

Vanity Fair ran a story about the $600k advance for The Art of Fielding. The article's author also included examples of advances he and his friends had received, which were in a much lower range (mostly under $10k, I think), serving as a reminder that yes, advances do still exist in trade publishing, but no, $600k is nowhere near typical. I found that useful.

In terms of agents, as others have noted, an agent's past deal figures won't tell you what your book might sell for with that agent, or whether your book will sell at all. Every book/author is an individual case. But I would want to know whether the agent has sold to publishers that generally offer decent advances (whatever "decent" means to me). So having a few figures to tie to publishers can be useful, though I'd be much more interested to know their lowest and median advances than their highest ones. Knowing typical advances for a category/genre, which I've seen agents blog about, can also be very helpful.

Why? Well, besides agent research, if you get an actual offer, or even competing offers, it's nice to know how they stack up in the industry. There was a time when my agent asked me what kind of figure I was hoping to see, and I realized I had no idea. All I'd ever heard about were these huge deals, and I wasn't expecting that, but I had no idea what a more realistic expectation for my kind of book would be. So I do think it's useful to gather this kind of knowledge, not about specific authors or agents, but about publishers and genres.
 

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Why? Well, besides agent research, if you get an actual offer, or even competing offers, it's nice to know how they stack up in the industry. There was a time when my agent asked me what kind of figure I was hoping to see, and I realized I had no idea. All I'd ever heard about were these huge deals, and I wasn't expecting that, but I had no idea what a more realistic expectation for my kind of book would be. So I do think it's useful to gather this kind of knowledge, not about specific authors or agents, but about publishers and genres.

This is a really good point. I suspect you'll always see publishers be cagey about it, though.

I have two data points for Harper Voyager: my own, and that of another author, although I only know the range of her offer (because it was in PM). But both of our books went to auction, and I suspect (but don't know) that skews things wildly. The offer I finally took was 2X the original preempt offer (from a different publisher) that set off the auction; the other author's range starts ~2X what I was paid. I've no idea how either data point fits in the imprint's average.

I had many conversations with my then-agent on the subject, but in retrospect my single point of experience suggests to me that the money offered is far less important than the publisher's presence in the genre and how they market. This is a harder thing to determine, I think, with smaller pubs who have fewer knobs to turn than larger ones. But the goal for an author isn't to get a whack of cash up front (although it's nice, and I do think says something about how much the imprint is going to put into marketing), it's to sell enough to sell the next book. A hefty advance doesn't contribute to that at all.

AFAIK, btw, foreign rights are not generally sold with English publication rights, so as an income stream those numbers wouldn't be tied to specific publishers. I do hear many authors on social media pleased to see how much these earn them (I've sold no translations myself), but I don't hear numbers attached, even percentages.
 

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I'm a fan of discussing money pragmatically with other artists. I'll be honest though and say I only do so in person, one on one. I still have that discomfort of information online being accessible to everyone. Though I do complete anonymous surveys when they make the rounds.

I think it's important to discuss money with other artists because as Fuchsia Groan said above, without knowledge we are vulnerable. I also feel like not talking about money puts artists at a disadvantage especially when it comes to negotiating. And further, when it comes to gender and race issues, puts those who are being marginalized without their knowledge at a further disadvantage (witness all those A-list actresses just learning how much their male co-stars have been getting paid all this time). Women are known to ask for fewer raises than men for a variety of complicated reasons, but often without knowing what one's male colleagues are making one doesn't actually know that one SHOULD be getting more.

In the world of publishing it can help avoid scams and rumours. If authors understand that maybe they won't get six figures but they can still earn a nice advance they won't be as willing to go with the first offer.

I will say, Fushcia, the one thing I disagree with you on is gauging agent efficacy. Only in that if an agent is selling works to the Big 5 then you know that their authors are getting advances. And that they generally will be good if not six figures. Selling to the Big 5 is really the only info you need to know. Then again, if there are agents that seem to only sell to smaller presses and that interests an author, I could see then wanting the actual numbers.

At any rate, details are important. Knowledge is power. And wanting to talk money isn't being nosy, it's self preservation.