Stay on the Indie Road?

FJCavallo

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I’ve been publishing horror and fantasy books in the indie arena for a little over ten years. I’ve also done some work-for-hire in game-universe fiction. The publishers I’ve worked with have all been legit, paying markets, but mostly small. None of them have big sales numbers. And neither do I.

My first few books taught me the hard way that you can’t expect the publisher to do the work of selling your book for you. Or at least, I thought I’d learned that lesson. For the last two novels I put out, I tried to follow all the advice I’d picked up over the years. I hired a publicist and committed a few thousand dollars out-of-pocket for PR. I got reviews, I bought ads, etc. Initially I felt good about my investment, as I got plenty of good reviews and even got named to one Top 10 of 2017 list. But at the end of the day, neither book sold well. I spent way more than I made off of a few small advances and some royalties.

I may be wrong here, but it’s beginning to feel like the indie road goes only so far. And it seems like the only way into the bigger realm of large publishing houses is by having an agent. I know a publisher won’t do it all for you, but after having tried to do it almost all myself, I know that everything I can possibly spend on marketing barely gets me on the map. Without a bigger publisher there may never be any sales numbers, or any money.

So now I’m faced with a choice: I have a new manuscript I’m shopping, professionally edited and proofed. Problem is, I’ve had zero luck getting even a nibble from an agent. I can’t decide if I should go ahead and publish this with the same small publisher I’ve been working with lately, knowing that I’ll end up spending thousands of dollars more in out-of-pocket PR and marketing, or hold off for a while, and keep querying agents until I’ve (theoretically) exhausted every possible avenue. By that point however, another year or two (or more) might have gone by during which time I’m not putting out any material.

Is it best to keep cranking along, putting my work out there, or to take a step back at this point and hold off until I’ve done everything possible to try to find some doorway into that larger world of agents and big publishers?

For anyone who made it to the end of this admittedly long post…thank you…I’m brand new here and any advice or thoughts you might have on this, I’m open to hearing it all.
 

Denevius

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Spending money on publishing is usually a pretty big red sign that you’re doing something wrong. Like, I know it’s your own choice, and not the publisher asking for it, but still. I’ve met a lot of people with similar experiences having similar disappointing results.

My advice is that if the small publisher you’re with is an honest one, to just publish with them and cut out all of the other expenses which already haven’t yielded the results you hoped for. You can send off for agents, too, since that’s free anyway. If no one bites, and despite the expense you’re paying for promotion your writing still isn’t selling at the numbers you want, that might be a clear indications of how far your craft will actually, realistically, take you.

Try becoming a local author. This might be more fulfilling than you realize.
 
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FJCavallo

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Thanks, I appreciate the feedback. It's good to hear I'm not alone (I didn't imagine I was, but still...)
 

Old Hack

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It's difficult to know what to advise you without knowing more about your writing and your publisher. It could be that your books are wonderful, but your publisher is awful, and that they are to blame for your poor sales; or (with all due respect) that your books are lacking and you were lucky to find a publisher willing to invest in them.

If you want to move into working with bigger trade publishers then you will have to work out why you're not getting any interest from agents, as they are the going to provide you with the access you need. There are all sorts of reasons writers don't find agents: the most obvious one is that their books don't have enough commercial potential; but there are other reasons too. The query letter might not be effective; they might be submitting their work badly, or to the wrong agents. We can't help you work out what the problem is for you, as we haven't seen your work or read your query letter and until you've got at least fifty substantive posts you can't put it up here for critique.

Your best bet, if you want us to advise you, is to spend the next week or two providing as many critiques as you can in our Share Your Work sections. I know it sounds counter-intuitive but critiquing other writers' works is a really good way of working out how to improve your own. And by giving a lot of critiques you're increasing the number of people who are likely to critique your own work once it goes up.

I note that you wrote, "I have a new manuscript I’m shopping, professionally edited and proofed". It's not necessary to pay to have your work edited prior to submission (and you can't have had it proof-read, as you don't have proofs yet). Any decent publisher is going to edit the work they sign, so you're going to have to go through editing again if you do find a publisher.

Regarding the money you've spent on publicity: writers shouldn't pay for anything once they're published; if your publisher didn't get your books onto lots of bookshop shelves then a lot of publicity is going to be ineffective, as it often only works if the book is immediately available to the people who see or hear about your book. I am not convinced that it's worth paying your own publicist if you're published by a smaller publisher; but if you're with a big publisher, and your book is picked up by a big chain bookshop or two, then it can do wonders.
 

Barbara R.

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I’ve been publishing horror and fantasy books in the indie arena for a little over ten years. I’ve also done some work-for-hire in game-universe fiction. The publishers I’ve worked with have all been legit, paying markets, but mostly small. None of them have big sales numbers. And neither do I.

My first few books taught me the hard way that you can’t expect the publisher to do the work of selling your book for you. Or at least, I thought I’d learned that lesson. For the last two novels I put out, I tried to follow all the advice I’d picked up over the years. I hired a publicist and committed a few thousand dollars out-of-pocket for PR. I got reviews, I bought ads, etc. Initially I felt good about my investment, as I got plenty of good reviews and even got named to one Top 10 of 2017 list. But at the end of the day, neither book sold well. I spent way more than I made off of a few small advances and some royalties.

I may be wrong here, but it’s beginning to feel like the indie road goes only so far. And it seems like the only way into the bigger realm of large publishing houses is by having an agent. I know a publisher won’t do it all for you, but after having tried to do it almost all myself, I know that everything I can possibly spend on marketing barely gets me on the map. Without a bigger publisher there may never be any sales numbers, or any money.

So now I’m faced with a choice: I have a new manuscript I’m shopping, professionally edited and proofed. Problem is, I’ve had zero luck getting even a nibble from an agent. I can’t decide if I should go ahead and publish this with the same small publisher I’ve been working with lately, knowing that I’ll end up spending thousands of dollars more in out-of-pocket PR and marketing, or hold off for a while, and keep querying agents until I’ve (theoretically) exhausted every possible avenue. By that point however, another year or two (or more) might have gone by during which time I’m not putting out any material.

Is it best to keep cranking along, putting my work out there, or to take a step back at this point and hold off until I’ve done everything possible to try to find some doorway into that larger world of agents and big publishers?

For anyone who made it to the end of this admittedly long post…thank you…I’m brand new here and any advice or thoughts you might have on this, I’m open to hearing it all.

Hard to answer that question based on what we know. On the one hand, you've been publishing for 10 years. Writing multiple books is one sure way to improve your craft, although it works a lot better if you get professional-level editorial feedback. On the other hand, you've yet to find a steady readership, which might be because the books aren't wonderful, or because they're not getting distributed widely enough. There's also just a ton of competition out there, and obviously your publisher isn't doing much to distinguish you from the crowd.

Still, a bunch of published books is nothing to sneeze at. I was an agent for many years, and if I heard your story, and knew the publisher to be an actual, commercial publishing house as opposed to a pay-to-play vanity press or "publishing services" provider, then I'd want to read. So I'm wondering which your publisher is. If you've ever paid them a dime, they belong to the latter category and agents won't be impressed. It doesn't mean they won't read, but they would discount your publishing history. If you're getting no requests at all, look to your query letter.

Paying for p.r. for a novel that's not already being widely reviewed and distributed in brick-and-mortar bookstores is a waste of money. One of the top publicists at Random House is a friend of mine. He once confessed that when he was a freelancer, he was hungry enough to take on some self-published novelists as clients, even though he knew there was little or nothing he could do for them. It's very hard to drum up publicity even for a traditionally published novel if the author's not a bestseller or a celebrity. It's nearly impossible for a self-published writer.

Paying for reviews is a chump's game, IMO. Paid reviews have no credibility and they impress no one, except possibly the author. I find it disgusting that Kirkus has gone into that business, since they know this perfectly well. But it's a great revenue stream for them.

If the book you're submitting now is part of a series, I'd say go ahead and publish with your current publisher, since it's unlikely that a commercial house would pick up a series that hasn't been selling extremely well. If it's a standalone or part of a new series, it could be worth while holding off to pursue the option of a larger publishing house in order to get to where you want to be as a writer. I examine those options in detail on my blog, here and in other posts, if you'd like some further thoughts.

Good luck! That helps, too.
 

FJCavallo

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Thanks “Old Hack” and Barbara for your feedback. Great thoughts.

I’ve been a hardliner when it comes to paying a publisher. I’ve never done it. I never will. But my publishers have mostly been small: my first book was with Medallion Press (when they were a start-up) and I’ve been working with Necro Publications since, with some time in between writing for Black Library’s “Warhammer” game-based books. I have nothing bad to say about Necro, I love those guys and they do sell some books. Mostly Edward Lee’s work, in large part because he has a big following. I’ve never paid them a cent, nor have they ever asked. But their books (other than Ed Lee’s) rarely get much distribution. I convinced myself for a time that I was making a good choice by taking on the lion’s share of the PR duties, but I’ve come to realize that you’re both 100% right: it doesn’t do much of anything to drive sales. I’ve never paid for reviews either, although part and parcel of hiring a publicist is that I paid them and they secured reviews, so by extension it almost feels like I did.

I really appreciate the advice. I’ve been lurking on these boards for years and never jumped in to the discussion. Right away the responses here have been really insightful.
 
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veinglory

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There is absolutely no reason to make a black and white decision to be indie or trade for you whole career. Do whatever seems like it would work for the manuscript.
 

Stephen Palmer

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There's also the question of whether commercial success and/or working with a traditional publisher is an indication of success.
My personal feeling is that it isn't.
For me, it's more an artistic thing.
Also - when I was trad published, I had to follow their lead. With indie publishing, I have much more freedom to write what I want.
 

FJCavallo

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Excellent point. I've done a little work with a traditional publisher and it was an up and down experience. I liked getting paid, and I liked the collaborative process, but when it came to making tough decisions, they always got their way. Indie publishing does offer freedom, and it's hard to put a price tag on that.
 

veinglory

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I've worked with traditional publishers and had the reverse experience that they never over-ruled my preference except on style guide issues. There is a lot of diversity in what trade and indie actually means for any particular book.