How to do proper historical/geographical research? Newbie.

miner_tom said:

I am writing my first novel with absolutely no skill but I do have a lot of ideas.

Simply put, if I want to take the reader down a street in Central London in the 1820's how would I find information about what the city or parts of it, actually looked like at the time?

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Welcome to AW!

My book was set in 1820s London and I found Sketches by Boz by Charles Dickens to be extremely helpful in painting a picture of London during that time. It is from 1833-1836 or thereabouts, so it's a little later than your target date, but I'd bet it will still help you. It's available here via Project Gutenberg

I'm running out the door, but when I have more time, I'll find you some others sources!

- Novels happening in that period (Jane Austen anyone?)
- Memoirs
- Chronicles
- Travel notes

Plus, simply google the net and you'll see plenty of resources online as well.

Seek Project Gutenberg for books which were written then and in fashion then, and forgotten now!

Hello. A quick internet search brought me this site, with old maps of London. It lists street names, businesses, schools, churches, etc. that existed at the time, when you click on the maps.

http://mapco.net/london.htm

Here's an 1820s map of London. http://mapco.net/pigot/pigot.htm

There are also maps from 1827, 1830, etc.

Also, an internet image search gave me paintings from that time period, that showed what buildings looked like and what clothing citizens wore.
https://www.google.com/search?q=182...jVkKHV0VApUQ_AUICigB&biw=1024&bih=651#imgrc=_

The Historical Writing board here on AW has a sticky with some resources:
https://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?89500-Resources-by-Era


You can also check out this list on Goodreads:
https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/93733.Best_Regency_England_History_Research_Book


I love Pinterest for getting visuals on the time and place:
https://www.pinterest.ie/search/pins/?q=london 1820s&rs=rs&eq=&etslf=1565&term_meta

Welcome!

It'll be important to get your geography right, and the important names and dates (you don't want to go around mentioning Queen Victorian in 1820), but it's also important to get an idea of the social structure of the time. Austen is actually a really good resource if you haven't read her already. I know when I'm working on a particular place and time I have a sort of entry-point person. When I was writing about the 1850's in coastal GA, Fanny Kemble was my starting point; I read about her experiences and used that to help shape the world I wanted to present to the reader. Similarly, for 1820's Philadelphia theater I used Charlotte Cushman, and for Edwardian England I used the Llewellyn-Davies boys (the inspiration for Peter Pan). You can expand out from the starting point like a spider with a web.

May I just add,don't use just one source.

I'd agree with previous posters that reading contemporary writing is a good place to start - I'd actually avoid modern fiction set at the time of your book in case your writing swallows up an anachronism or two along the way*. Modern historical analysis of the period can be useful though. Remember that the history of the fifty years or so previous to your story's setting will influence the back-stories of your older characters. Going to relevant museums, reading newspapers from the time and scouring the net for contemporary art can help too.

I immerse myself and soak up the period but don't make any notes (because I'm lazy) and then largely trust to my own feeling for the period when writing and check specific details later, either when re-writing or editing. So while I was drafting, pretty much everything I read was either late 19thC fiction or history writing about the period. It does help that I grew up surrounded by antiques (my family is lousy with antiques dealers and restorers), reading the classics and being dragged to historical places and museums, so I have a sort of background sense of history already installed - this can be dangerous when my 'sense' is factually incorrect! It certainly doesn't replace reading and research.

I also came to the conclusion that it's a bad idea to choose a very specific date unless it's vital for the story. I was going to set my story in late December 1886 in East Anglia. That would mean that the weather, tides, railway timetables, etc are details I would want to be correct, and so they can't be fudged for the needs of the story. Screw that. If I want it to snow in my story, it'll damn well snow, whether it did on the 21st Dec 1886 or not. So now my story is just 'late Victorian'.

*Having said that, you need to read what's being published in your genre. I dealt with this conflict by avoiding modern work set in the late victorian period while actually drafting, but reading modern works now that I'm at the editing stage.

This is a good question, and one I've been thinking about recently. My next book is set in the here an now but refers to the 1600's, more specifically the celts in the 1600's and nobility. I've not had to do any historical research so far so this has been on my mind of late as I've been creating an outline for book 2.

Google is always your friend where research is concerned, but it also helps if there are people on a forum such as this with knowledge about the era you're writing in (if there are any on here with knowledge regarding 1600's celts, please do shout out - I will be eternally grateful). It's also useful ask on here because sometimes, no matter how much you search the web, that elusive website with all be best data just never seems to show itself - that's where lovely forumites come in with their handy links.

In my experience joining a forum such as this is one of the best things you can do.

Best of luck

1600s? That seems remarkably late. Celts in which region?

Lady Fox said:

My next book is set in the here an now but refers to the 1600's, more specifically the celts in the 1600's and nobility.
...
(if there are any on here with knowledge regarding 1600's celts, please do shout out - I will be eternally grateful).

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Depends what you mean by "Celts" and "nobility". My WIP is set in early 1600s Ireland, when the language and culture of the regular people might be described as "Celtic" to an extent. But the old Gaelic lords had lost most of their power to the English (look up "flight of the earls") and the Cromwellian conquest later in the 17th century would finish the job. So a "Celtic nobility" was an endangered species in 1600s Ireland. I think the Scots still had some clan system going until Colloden in the mid-1700s.

There's a huge online library of Irish historical sources at https://celt.ucc.ie/index.html

autumnleaf said:

Depends what you mean by "Celts" and "nobility". My WIP is set in early 1600s Ireland, when the language and culture of the regular people might be described as "Celtic" to an extent. But the old Gaelic lords had lost most of their power to the English (look up "flight of the earls") and the Cromwellian conquest later in the 17th century would finish the job. So a "Celtic nobility" was an endangered species in 1600s Ireland. I think the Scots still had some clan system going until Colloden in the mid-1700s.

There's a huge online library of Irish historical sources at https://celt.ucc.ie/index.html

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It's a little anachronistic to refer to Celts in the context of 1600 Ireland; they were Gaelic speakers (still) with some bilingual speakers who spoke Irish (Gaelic), English and French.

The "Old Gaelic lords" were essentially installed by the Normans; they were not "nobility" in the traditional Irish sense.

The English attitude towards the Irish and the various 16th century rebellions is depicted in Edmund Spenser's A View of the State of Ireland.

Tyrone's Rebellion/ The Nine Years War took place from 1593 to 1603. Essex's Rebellion i.e. the failed unsuccessful rebellion led by Robert Devereux, 2nd Earl of Essex against Elizabeth I, was in 1601.

AW Admin said:

It's a little anachronistic to refer to Celts in the context of 1600 Ireland; they were Gaelic speakers (still) with some bilingual speakers who spoke Irish (Gaelic), English and French.

The "Old Gaelic lords" were essentially installed by the Normans; they were not "nobility" in the traditional Irish sense.

The English attitude towards the Irish and the various 16th century rebellions is depicted in Edmund Spenser's A View of the State of Ireland.

Tyrone's Rebellion/ The Nine Years War took place from 1593 to 1603. Essex's Rebellion i.e. the failed unsuccessful rebellion led by Robert Devereux, 2nd Earl of Essex against Elizabeth I, was in 1601.

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That's why I put "Celtic" and "nobility" in quotation marks. I agree that if you wanted to portray an actual Celtic or Gaelic culture you'd have to set your story much earlier. I'm well aware of the Nine Year's War as my characters are living in the aftermath of it, and I have read Spencer's treatise as well as many others by English settlers of the time.

In any case, to get back to Lady Fox's question:
- What do you mean by Celts? People speaking a Celtic language? People living in Ireland/Scotland/Wales/Brittany, who may or may not be speaking the Celtic language associated with that region?
- What kind of nobility are we talking about? Old titled families? Rich people?
- Why the 1600s? Is there a particular historical context or event you want to tie it to?

autumnleaf said:

In any case, to get back to Lady Fox's question:
- What do you mean by Celts? People speaking a Celtic language? People living in Ireland/Scotland/Wales/Brittany, who may or may not be speaking the Celtic language associated with that region?
- What kind of nobility are we talking about? Old titled families? Rich people?
- Why the 1600s? Is there a particular historical context or event you want to tie it to?

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No particular event, and not even tied to 1600s at this point. It's for the second book in a series (first one nearing completion) and it's based around my own take-on of Druids. The first book refers to a period 400 years ago (it deals with reincarnation) though this isn't set in stone and can be easily modified if necessary. I've just started outlining book two and have bookmarked many websites to begin historical research , but I have yet to start the research. It doesn't have to be historically perfect - it's all fiction (places, dates, people) - but I do want it to have some historical credibility. So I guess to answer your question: speaking the celtic language is a possibility, but not necessary. What I do want, though, is for the second book to be set in northumbria around a castle that is in modern day times is a ruin (again, not necessary to be a real castle but if there is a real one that serves my purpose all the better). Nobility is preferably old titled families - my druidic characters of that time (not called druids by the way - I have given them my own name) - hide their "religion" and are on the outside well respected people (think of it as a hidden cult). But like I said I have yet to start serious research and if the 17th century is too late for celts/druids then it's a simple task of going back a few more hundred years.


I'm really looking forward to starting the research process - something that wasn't necessary for book one (not re celts and druids anyway) and any help pointing me in the right direction is much appreciated

P.S. I have made a note of the links provided in this thread - thank you all.

Lady Fox said:

No particular event, and not even tied to 1600s at this point. It's for the second book in a series (first one nearing completion) and it's based around my own take-on of Druids. The first book refers to a period 400 years ago (it deals with reincarnation) though this isn't set in stone and can be easily modified if necessary. I've just started outlining book two and have bookmarked many websites to begin historical research , but I have yet to start the research. It doesn't have to be historically perfect - it's all fiction (places, dates, people) - but I do want it to have some historical credibility. So I guess to answer your question: speaking the celtic language is a possibility, but not necessary. What I do want, though, is for the second book to be set in northumbria around a castle that is in modern day times is a ruin (again, not necessary to be a real castle but if there is a real one that serves my purpose all the better). Nobility is preferably old titled families - my druidic characters of that time (not called druids by the way - I have given them my own name) - hide their "religion" and are on the outside well respected people (think of it as a hidden cult). But like I said I have yet to start serious research and if the 17th century is too late for celts/druids then it's a simple task of going back a few more hundred years.

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By the 1600s, the only part of England that spoke a Celtic language was Cornwall. Northumbrians would have been speaking a dialect of English. Any form of druidic religion was long gone -- the main religious conflict was Protestant vs Catholic -- but of course that doesn't mean you can't have a hidden religion. The 16th and 17th centuries were peak witch-hunting season, so you might be able to use that. You might also want to look at how English Catholics of the era were treated and how they hid their religious practices (see "priest holes"); that could provide a basis for seeing how a religious minority could operate underground. If your story takes place around the time of the English Civil War (1642–1651), you might need to decide what side they're on.

Alternatively, you could push the story back a few centuries to where Celts and druids are more likely. I'm not sure when Northumbria would have been considered "Celtic" -- probably before the arrival of the Anglo-Saxons. The Anglo-Saxons had their own belief systems before the arrival of Christianity. The Viking invasions and Norman Conquest would have a big impact later. But again, the "hidden religion" part means it could co-exist secretly with Christianity in any era. And a lot of pre-Christian beliefs filtered through to later eras in Christianized form e.g. places where druids used to worship would become dedicated to a particular saint.

Northumbria has a lot of castles, especially around the border with Scotland where defense was an important consideration. Bernard Cornwell's Saxon series is set around Bamburgh Castle in Northumbria.

Anyway, hope I haven't confused you more! I'd probably start with a general book about Celtic Britain and go from there. For example, The Celts: A Very Short Introduction by Barry Cunliffe.

1820s London should be relatively easy to imagine with all the visual sources like engravings and paintings from the period. (from my quick googling it looks like farm animals were all over the place even in the center of the city!!) There were lots of newspapers that include illustrated street scenes. Start with a map like one of the other posters suggested and start googling landmarks. (Like Covent Garden Market 1820 brings up a good one). I like to collect images on the internet on Pinterest. If you are not familiar with Pinterest, it allows you to grab thumbnail images from many different sources (including other Pinterest collections). Paintings by Turner and other early-mid 19th century artists are good sources too.

Thank you autumnleaf, that is absolutely perfect. I've made a note of all the above and will make good use of it.

Thanks again, much appreciated