Yes, as wise cornflake says. If it's up on the internet for download (even if free), it counts as self published. Even if you unpublish it later.
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Mention Beta reader responses in a query?
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Well, swell (meaning, "not swell"). {emoji: frustrated, scratching head} Is there another place I can be in that isn't labeled "rock" or "hard place?" How can I adequately get readers opinions on the book without giving them the book? Doling out individual chapters isn't my thing. How does everyone else get pre-published manuscript feedback?
If I've already been stamped with the "published" label, I should probably just go ahead and do it for real, eh? Or is there hope for me?
If I've already been stamped with the "published" label, I should probably just go ahead and do it for real, eh? Or is there hope for me?
Can only speak of my personal experience but I got to know other writers on courses and forums, and we became friends and each others beta readers. I have read entire MS for them and gave them feedback as well as reading the odd chapters or short stories and they do the same for me.
There is a big difference between a beta-reader and just a reader (i.e. someone who just download and read a book for me is just a reader, not a beta-reader).
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People use beta readers, mostly.
There are some agents who won't care, but many will. First rights are gone once it's published, which matters to publishing houses. It's minorly published, which might help, but it is out there in the world. Unless you put it here too.
Beta reading isn't the same as putting a ms up for download, on a public and searchable website.
I have four or five critique partners and have used loads of betas across both mss. That does not count as publishing.
I have four or five critique partners and have used loads of betas across both mss. That does not count as publishing.
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Elle and cornflake... probably just an excuse, but my website really only has friends, family, and the few authors from sites like this perusing it. I'm not boosting my posts for the public masses yet. The only people who have read, or are reading the book, are other professed authors or the one "beta reader" who responded on Goodreads. Like most folks here I'm into swapping of reads, advice, or chatter, not alerting the masses yet. But, maybe that's still too much?
And as far as putting the book up here, Cornflake... perhaps I've dug a deep enough hole already?
The more eyes I can get on it, the better, IMO, but maybe I should cut my losses and yank back on the reins.
I'm ok with the idea of using my current book as a stepping stone with no real profit, leading to hopefully some rep to attract readers little by little. But, of course, having a more immediate impact with the first one would be the dream. Unlikely, but hey -- the dream.
And as far as putting the book up here, Cornflake... perhaps I've dug a deep enough hole already?
The more eyes I can get on it, the better, IMO, but maybe I should cut my losses and yank back on the reins. I'm ok with the idea of using my current book as a stepping stone with no real profit, leading to hopefully some rep to attract readers little by little. But, of course, having a more immediate impact with the first one would be the dream. Unlikely, but hey -- the dream.
If you follow the link, it explicitly outlines what counts as published and what doesn't.
Posting sections on a private forum explicitly for critique isn't pu lishing. Neither is sending to specific individuals for beta feedback.
However, putting the entirety of your novel for free on an open website in eBook form, does count as publishing.
If you want to attract readers I would maybe go the whole hog and make it discoverable via Amazon etc.
Posting sections on a private forum explicitly for critique isn't pu lishing. Neither is sending to specific individuals for beta feedback.
However, putting the entirety of your novel for free on an open website in eBook form, does count as publishing.
If you want to attract readers I would maybe go the whole hog and make it discoverable via Amazon etc.
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Elle and cornflake... probably just an excuse, but my website really only has friends, family, and the few authors from sites like this perusing it. I'm not boosting my posts for the public masses yet. The only people who have read, or are reading the book, are other professed authors or the one "beta reader" who responded on Goodreads. Like most folks here I'm into swapping of reads, advice, or chatter, not alerting the masses yet. But, maybe that's still too much?
And as far as putting the book up here, Cornflake... perhaps I've dug a deep enough hole already?
I'm ok with the idea of using my current book as a stepping stone with no real profit, leading to hopefully some rep to attract readers little by little. But, of course, having a more immediate impact with the first one would be the dream. Unlikely, but hey -- the dream.
That 'here too' is a link to a site, booksomething, that has your book available for download. Unless your site is locked down and well-protected, no, those are not the only entities perusing it. Anyone can see it, anyone searching for 'vampyre' books (and that's a thing), and spiders. If you put it on Goodreads, that too is publishing (not that it matters as it is already, just saying, if you'd only done that, it'd be the same thing).
Putting excerpts up here is fine -- that's why the Share Your Work section is password protected, so that spiders (and unregistered people) can't access it. Work posted here is safe and not published, because it's not accessible to the world at large.
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Jeff, dude, check out Inklings in Simi!
There's even industry folks that swing by and participate from time to time. I got two betas through that group, great feedback. IDK how far the drive would be for you. It's about thirty minutes for me, and worth it.
And you'd even meet your doppelgänger.
There's even industry folks that swing by and participate from time to time. I got two betas through that group, great feedback. IDK how far the drive would be for you. It's about thirty minutes for me, and worth it.
And you'd even meet your doppelgänger.
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I'm reading the neon graffiti on the wall. I'm not smiling about it, but I'm smelling what's cooking.
My book is too long for most agents. It's tainted with semi-publish-y-ness. It's a bit of a hybrid genre. It's not YA or women-centric (pretty much what everyone seems to want nowadays). I haven't blown anybody's doors off with my query skills. Perhaps I should just take a deep breath and narrow my focus on killing it with a serious attempt at self-pubbing and self-promo.
And... part of the reason I wanted my book out there is to build rep and name recognition. It seems most of the success stories I hear about start with that. And yet, that's the thing I'm shooting myself in the foot to do. Ugh. My brain hurts.
And the phrase does not need to be said: "welcome to the big show, rook." Rook is humbly sitting on the bench after his fastball gave up a 3-run bomb.
Ah, me. Well, take it, learn from it, and keep throwing. Thanks guys and gals.
My book is too long for most agents. It's tainted with semi-publish-y-ness. It's a bit of a hybrid genre. It's not YA or women-centric (pretty much what everyone seems to want nowadays). I haven't blown anybody's doors off with my query skills. Perhaps I should just take a deep breath and narrow my focus on killing it with a serious attempt at self-pubbing and self-promo.
And... part of the reason I wanted my book out there is to build rep and name recognition. It seems most of the success stories I hear about start with that. And yet, that's the thing I'm shooting myself in the foot to do. Ugh. My brain hurts.
And the phrase does not need to be said: "welcome to the big show, rook." Rook is humbly sitting on the bench after his fastball gave up a 3-run bomb.
Ah, me. Well, take it, learn from it, and keep throwing. Thanks guys and gals.
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Hmmm. It's also free candy to help build a fan base. It's a significant chunk of the supposed million words one needs to write before publishing. It has been the process through which you have learned writerly stuff. It's an opportunity to put that one to the side and let the creative juices flow on the next.
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Sorry, Patty. I missed the Inklings ref. I'll look into it. I usually don't prefer to get WIP feedback. I'm far too uptight about my process, and I tend to get defensive with suggestions or advice mid-work. Once I feel comfortable with a product, then I'll put it out there. And Yes, I may get feedback that will change my story if I were to use it, but I'd rather do it that way. Weird maybe, but true. I am in a visual art business that requires constant critiques all the time, and what I found the most worthwhile is to put your best, most confident work forward first, always. Feedback feels more fruitful that way.
I'm having coffee with another SC valley author this Saturday. I was hoping for more than just us (seems awkward), but it's a start. I'm guessing you live North SF valley, so if you feel up to it, the more the merrier. He just wants to shoot-the-shirt on approaches, publishing, venting, whatever.
I'm having coffee with another SC valley author this Saturday. I was hoping for more than just us (seems awkward), but it's a start. I'm guessing you live North SF valley, so if you feel up to it, the more the merrier. He just wants to shoot-the-shirt on approaches, publishing, venting, whatever.
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Time to write another book. Feedback is what it is - an ego boost or raw, ugly truth. Guess which one is the most helpful <grin>
The realities of commercial publishing require books to be created within very short timeframes, so here is your chance to have a manuscript finished by the end of the year as "practice". Most people only sell on the 4th + MS, so I wouldn't fuss the first few.
The realities of commercial publishing require books to be created within very short timeframes, so here is your chance to have a manuscript finished by the end of the year as "practice". Most people only sell on the 4th + MS, so I wouldn't fuss the first few.
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Treehouseman. Good advice, of course.
Have 4 now. 11 chapters in on #5. Have 4 more on the docket to start ASAP. Current one pictured is just the most ready to hit the public. Definitely not stopping to whine. Just whining while I work.
Have 4 now. 11 chapters in on #5. Have 4 more on the docket to start ASAP. Current one pictured is just the most ready to hit the public. Definitely not stopping to whine. Just whining while I work.
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(btw, publishers want more than YA and woman centric or else I wouldn't be published and a bunch of my friends wouldn't be published. It's unhelpful to think of yourself as so unique and special and weird that no one wants you. It might feel good, as it places the issue with the work on the shoulders of others, but the facts are weird, unique and special get published all the time. A book is only too long if it reads too long, long books also get published all the time it just requires proving that the book needs to be that long - my first book was twice the length of the usual for that genre. Maybe this book really doesn't work for the industry, but don't define it by such narrow margins as it only makes it seem like you don't know the industry at all and are bitter at the YA/Women's Lit market)
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There are more agents looking for YA, but there's also more writers writing YA, so it balances it out. As for woman-centric, do you mean main characters? There are way more women MCs in SFF recently (e.g. Artemis, The Long Way to a Small Angry Planet), but men still seem to dominate the genre (think Expanse, The Martian, Chalk, Dark Matter, Locked In, Head On, etc.) Bobiverse has practically only male characters in book # 1, and it's adult scifi.
Some have a mix of characters (e.g. The Collapsing Empire). In the end, gender doesn't matter - what matter is the story. Hunger Games and Redrising are examples of recent high quality trilogies where the former has a female MC, and the latter a male MC.
Some have a mix of characters (e.g. The Collapsing Empire). In the end, gender doesn't matter - what matter is the story. Hunger Games and Redrising are examples of recent high quality trilogies where the former has a female MC, and the latter a male MC.
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Yikes, No, Toothpaste! Wasn't my intention at all. Really sorry if you thought so.
There is sooo many marketable genres, including hopefully mine, and I'm venting a little because I'm mad at myself. YA and women's market are obviously skyrocketing with readers which is why there's a lot of agent love there, and rightly so. My book is long, which typically agents don't like, but those people who have read it don't mind it. Like I said, it's just adding up to writing on the wall for me. Lord knows I have nothing but respect and a touch of jealousy for those who are making it in any genre. Power to you. I'm against NOBODY and NOTHING. Just the opposite. It would be nice if my particular subject matter and interests centered around the most sought after market, but I write for what I enjoy, and whatever price that is will be. That's on me. Please don't take it any other way than a frustrated wannabe author who has gotten too many rejections and some bad news today.
There is sooo many marketable genres, including hopefully mine, and I'm venting a little because I'm mad at myself. YA and women's market are obviously skyrocketing with readers which is why there's a lot of agent love there, and rightly so. My book is long, which typically agents don't like, but those people who have read it don't mind it. Like I said, it's just adding up to writing on the wall for me. Lord knows I have nothing but respect and a touch of jealousy for those who are making it in any genre. Power to you. I'm against NOBODY and NOTHING. Just the opposite. It would be nice if my particular subject matter and interests centered around the most sought after market, but I write for what I enjoy, and whatever price that is will be. That's on me. Please don't take it any other way than a frustrated wannabe author who has gotten too many rejections and some bad news today.
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Have you put up excerpts here?
People can generally tell from even a couple thousand words, if you can edit down or if you're just writing something long. People can also identify other issues -- most stuff isn't ONLY in the opening.
Read around some of the threads in SYW in your genre where people have posted excerpts for critique and see what you think. All SYW sections except erotica have the same password (vista). The erotica one you need to email a mod and confirm you're over 18.
People can generally tell from even a couple thousand words, if you can edit down or if you're just writing something long. People can also identify other issues -- most stuff isn't ONLY in the opening.
Read around some of the threads in SYW in your genre where people have posted excerpts for critique and see what you think. All SYW sections except erotica have the same password (vista). The erotica one you need to email a mod and confirm you're over 18.
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characatoa, I'm not sure exactly. It's just what it says on the agent bios where they list what they are looking for. I'm probably lumping things together, but the theme is along the lines of appealing to more women. I see a lot of agents asking for heroic female protagonists/leads, and/or strong female voices, and some other things that are less specific about focusing on women's issues. Ask the agents what they mean... I'm a poor messenger. But it's not an active focus of mine. I doubt I could write YA, I simply don't speak the language. I'm happy with my subject matter so far. Maybe other folks will be too. We'll eventually see, I guess.
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Can you tell us what genre you've written? It would help a bit because right now all I'm hearing is the usual, "No one wants what I'm writing" instead of maybe considering that it isn't the "what" but the "how". I realise this is sounding harsh, but it's important to nail what the actual issue is. If you've only subbed queries and had no further requests, then likely the issue is the query itself, not even the writing of your work.
But yeah, can you tell us a little bit about your work? (also honestly, you need to stop. There are so many different kinds of books being published and represented. I get that you see calls for certain things, but a) that doesn't mean people don't want other things as well, and b) I sense a bit of confirmation bias happening here)
But yeah, can you tell us a little bit about your work? (also honestly, you need to stop. There are so many different kinds of books being published and represented. I get that you see calls for certain things, but a) that doesn't mean people don't want other things as well, and b) I sense a bit of confirmation bias happening here)
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Cornflake. Thank you for the invite. It is most appreciated.
I am not really interested in piece by piece crits, though. Or workshops. Not my scene. But it is a great tool for a lot of people. I'm not even very comfortable being on the critic side. I don't feel like I have enough street cred to offer that kind of detailed advice to legitimate authors. If they specifically ask me, I will, but that's sort of a "buyer beware" situation. But thank you, and good advice for most.
I am not really interested in piece by piece crits, though. Or workshops. Not my scene. But it is a great tool for a lot of people. I'm not even very comfortable being on the critic side. I don't feel like I have enough street cred to offer that kind of detailed advice to legitimate authors. If they specifically ask me, I will, but that's sort of a "buyer beware" situation. But thank you, and good advice for most.
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Your call, but at least check out the threads. You'd be surprised how much people can tell from a small excerpt. Also, there's a stickied thread someplace about why people should/can crit even if they're not experienced, because so many people think that.
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Toothpaste, I've offended you in some way, and I'm truly sorry for that. I was only trying to answer questions at this point. My original question was long ago answered, and Harlequin and a few others have kinda thrown me a curve on my expectations, so I lamented about it.
I will answer your questions and quit: My genre for "A Vampyre's Daughter" is urban fantasy. It is a love story with violence and action. The sequel will be the same. The primary voice is the male protagonsit, strong and quirky (Army vet). The female protagonist is the vampire: innocent, sweet, and passive until she is ultimately pushed and finds a strength she had previously considered monstrous.
My other works are a hybrid of sci-fi/horror/paranormal/action with humorous elements, maybe some urban fantasy. That sounds odd even to me, but I like the mix. There are a lot of agents who claim they like genre bending but its hard to know exactly what that means. I like to think my stories will be just fine once they hit the public, but it's difficult to be confident about how an agent may see that, or a publisher. In any case, it all comes down to venting.
I truly don't want to offend you further. I am on writer sites to find support and like minds, advice, and eventually a friendly community that can help each other. I am not here to raise eyebrows or needle anyone. Somehow I've done that though, and again my apologies.
I will answer your questions and quit: My genre for "A Vampyre's Daughter" is urban fantasy. It is a love story with violence and action. The sequel will be the same. The primary voice is the male protagonsit, strong and quirky (Army vet). The female protagonist is the vampire: innocent, sweet, and passive until she is ultimately pushed and finds a strength she had previously considered monstrous.
My other works are a hybrid of sci-fi/horror/paranormal/action with humorous elements, maybe some urban fantasy. That sounds odd even to me, but I like the mix. There are a lot of agents who claim they like genre bending but its hard to know exactly what that means. I like to think my stories will be just fine once they hit the public, but it's difficult to be confident about how an agent may see that, or a publisher. In any case, it all comes down to venting.
I truly don't want to offend you further. I am on writer sites to find support and like minds, advice, and eventually a friendly community that can help each other. I am not here to raise eyebrows or needle anyone. Somehow I've done that though, and again my apologies.
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Yup, thanks again Cornflake. I will definitely take it under advisement.
I need to go now or my work on't get done. Thanks all!
I need to go now or my work on't get done. Thanks all!