Mention Beta reader responses in a query?

You aren't offending me, I'm just asking you direct questions and being direct in turn. If you still want to leave you can, but don't do so on my account. Your analysis of the situation, as least with regards to my feelings are wholly inaccurate.

Okay, so with your description I see literally nothing there that isn't popular and marketable. Are you familiar with Jim Butcher at all? That's what your description kind of reminds me of. I also have a writer friend, Rio Youers, who's books are wonderful blends of gritty, humour and magical realism. You might want to check him out as well. It's not the same stuff as yours, but there is similar gender blending and his are books with male protagonists.

Now, I grant you paranormal books aren't as popular as they once were, so you might face a slight challenge with the vampire stuff, but there is still a market for it especially for a fresh take. Have you considered looking for authors akin to Butcher and finding out what agents rep said authors?

Hi Jeff.
I'm not pushing for you to post in SYW, you will/won't when and if you feel ready, but I want to + 1 what Cornflake has said. When people are critting (as opposed to people who don't write but are readers, and I do feel there is value in feedback from readers too), there is a lot they can see from an opening or excerpt (and a lot you can gain from their crit) without needing to read the entire mss, and many experienced critters won't agree to beta until/unless they've seen a sample of the writing.

There are still a lot of us who read and write for adults, many agents and publishers looking for adult fiction.

Many fabulous novels are crossover in genre, appealing to a wide audience. It can be frustrating when trying to pitch or write a query so professionals and/or readers know what you're offering, but it can be done. (I'm currently deciding about querying a bizarro absurdist urban dark contemporary with strong humorous elements--if I query, I will identify it as speculative fiction)

Whichever way you go, good luck!

jeffschanz said:

I am not really interested in piece by piece crits, though. Or workshops. Not my scene. But it is a great tool for a lot of people. I'm not even very comfortable being on the critic side. I don't feel like I have enough street cred to offer that kind of detailed advice to legitimate authors. If they specifically ask me, I will, but that's sort of a "buyer beware" situation. But thank you, and good advice for most.

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So you prefer feedback from random strangers on the internet?

Probably opening a can of worms here, but fwiw I rather like the idea of a whole piece looked at rather than 2000 words (or whatever) at a shot. With a whole book, a review that says "I didn't finish but..." is easy to put in the second pile.

If you give me 2000 words and I read it and have no sense of story arc, or motivation, but I can see your adverb abuse, I'll critique your adverb abuse. I won't have anything to say about your story, not really.

If I have an entire book to read, I'll get past the adverb abuse, (or whatever), I will, and will see if there's something valuable in the story arc.

There's lots of paths to the mountaintop, least seems that way to me. Just not clear that we're all going for the same peak.

YMMV, 2cents

Patty said:

Probably opening a can of worms here, but fwiw I rather like the idea of a whole piece looked at rather than 2000 words (or whatever) at a shot. A review that says "I didn't finish but..." is easy to put in the second pile.

If you give me 2000 words and I read it and have no sense of story arc, or motivation, but I can see your adverb abuse, I'll critique your adverb abuse. I won't have anything to say about your story, not really.

If I have an entire book to read, I'll get past the adverb abuse, (or whatever), I will, and will see if there's something valuable in the story arc.

There's lots of paths to the mountaintop, least seems that way to me. Just not clear that we're all going for the same peak.

YMMV, 2cents

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First, lots of people won't get past stuff like adverb abuse. Second, if you have no sense of story or motivation within the first 2000 words, I'd say that's a problem. Obviously, you can't tell the entire plot/arcs, etc., but you should be able to understand a bunch.

Third, it's not a zero sum game, This is why most people have beta readers -- to identify whether the whole book works as a whole, but before you get to betas, you (the general you, not you or any specific poster) should have polished the ms so that there aren't issues with the writing, and the betas can concentrate of the whole. That's why they're betas, not alphas.

Also, again, there are many things, not just overuse of adverbs, that can be seen in an excerpt that are pervasive, like a lack of clear motivation, the book starting in the wrong place, overwriting, logic fails, etc.

Patty said:

Probably opening a can of worms here, but fwiw I rather like the idea of a whole piece looked at rather than 2000 words (or whatever) at a shot. With a whole book, a review that says "I didn't finish but..." is easy to put in the second pile.

If you give me 2000 words and I read it and have no sense of story arc, or motivation, but I can see your adverb abuse, I'll critique your adverb abuse. I won't have anything to say about your story, not really.

If I have an entire book to read, I'll get past the adverb abuse, (or whatever), I will, and will see if there's something valuable in the story arc.

There's lots of paths to the mountaintop, least seems that way to me. Just not clear that we're all going for the same peak.

YMMV, 2cents

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Readers, agents, and editors won't give the manuscript this sort of leeway. If I pick up a book in the store or even the library, it has a few paragraphs to win my interest. The first few hundred words can often reveal major issues of wordiness, filtering, overwriting, purple prose, and pacing. When critiquing, why continue beyond the first thousand words if the same problems and thorny issues will recur? Sure, a piece will reach a point where you need broad picture structural reviews, but the short 100-word, 500-word, and 1000-word critiques all have their place as well.

Everybody has to make time around other things. It's a good day if I sit down before 11pm to write, and it all needs to fit into a couple of hours. My critique partner regularly works fifty hour weeks, with a lot of weekends. Everybody is writing in the margins of life.

Critiquing is a part or writing, though, and reading usually is too.

Ditto for a lot of other stuff you're laying out as unusual; I would say most of that is normal experience. Lots of people write adult and very few books conform tightly to genre boundaries, especially in sff. Queries are tough and take months to learn the first time round. Etc.

I'm not mentioning that to kick off off a game of one upmanship. My only point is that the suggestions to read and crit aren't coming from millionaire writers luxuriating in mansions They are generally made on the understanding most of us are busy and that everybody worries how their book fits into the general market.

Obviously not all things are possible; there are only so many hours in the day. So people suggest what's worked for them.

Harlequin said:

Critiquing is a part or writing, though, and reading usually is too.

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That is very true.

In additional to the fact that I like helping people, the other big reason I critique other people's work is that it has made me a better writer. Being able to assess other people's work and edit has made my own editing for my work a lot sharper too. Having other people critique my work has also help spot things that I wouldn't see because I am too close to my own work.

At the end of day people can do whatever they want, it is their work and nobody else's but I have to admit I find it hard to understand why anybody would cut themselves from something that can improve their writing. I am pretty sure I wouldn't have learned as much as I have without critiques and feedback.

jeffschanz said:

My book is too long for most agents. It's tainted with semi-publish-y-ness. It's a bit of a hybrid genre. It's not YA or women-centric (pretty much what everyone seems to want nowadays). I haven't blown anybody's doors off with my query skills. Perhaps I should just take a deep breath and narrow my focus on killing it with a serious attempt at self-pubbing and self-promo.

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Industry professional (ish) here with some tough love for you.

The first thing you should do is take your book offline. Get rid of those links on your website, remove it from bookrix and anywhere else you've put it. And your website needs a re-design: it's not enticing.

Yes, you've published it by putting it up online. But if you know that it's only been looked at by half a dozen people, I suspect you'll get away with this.

Stop making sweeping statements like, "my book is too long", "agents only want YA or woman-centric stuff", and so on. They're not true, and they're not helping.

You say your book is too long for most agents: judging by the blurb you've provided on bookrix, your writing is far too wordy. I've had a quick look at the reading sample offered there, and yep, it's overwritten and unclear. You need to work on your writing before submitting this anywhere. The best way to find out what you're doing wrong is to give critiques to other writers. It's the quickest, easiest and safest way to understand why your own work isn't working. Trust me on this: I've been writing and editing for decades and have seen writers transform their work by giving critiques.

And... part of the reason I wanted my book out there is to build rep and name recognition. It seems most of the success stories I hear about start with that. And yet, that's the thing I'm shooting myself in the foot to do. Ugh. My brain hurts.
And the phrase does not need to be said: "welcome to the big show, rook." Rook is humbly sitting on the bench after his fastball gave up a 3-run bomb.
Ah, me. Well, take it, learn from it, and keep throwing. Thanks guys and gals.

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Putting your work out for free is not how you build a following on social media. Engaging in conversations is how you do that.

Building a brand means publishing your books well. Not putting them up for free on your site.

Take a step back. Stop rushing at this. Learn how to do it properly.

jeffschanz said:

Treehouseman. Good advice, of course.
Have 4 now. 11 chapters in on #5. Have 4 more on the docket to start ASAP. Current one pictured is just the most ready to hit the public. Definitely not stopping to whine. Just whining while I work.

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Stop writing anything new for now. Learn what needs improving in your writing first. Then your new work will be better, and will need less work.

jeffschanz said:

Cornflake. Thank you for the invite. It is most appreciated.
I am not really interested in piece by piece crits, though. Or workshops. Not my scene. But it is a great tool for a lot of people. I'm not even very comfortable being on the critic side. I don't feel like I have enough street cred to offer that kind of detailed advice to legitimate authors. If they specifically ask me, I will, but that's sort of a "buyer beware" situation. But thank you, and good advice for most.

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You're a reader. Of course you have the authority to tell writers what you like and don't like about their work. And as I said earlier, it will help you learn how to improve your own work. You do have to focus carefully, and apply the things you learn to your own work, but you can do that.

jeffschanz said:

1. It's just a personal thing with me, but I'm not into partial crits. There's a combination of complex, psychological and stubborn reasons. Too much to detail here. My mind might eventual change, of course. I've been dealing with artistic crits for nearly 35 years. The concept is very familiar. Query/synopsis help is another matter, though.

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You do really need to work on your writing at this basic level, though. And giving and receiving those partial crits is how you do it. You might not like it, but your work really needs it. There's no way round this.

2. Thank you Toothpaste for the reference. I will look into them. I read so seldom anymore. Not an exaggeration, I spend all my free time writing. I'm away from home either working or driving 12 hours a day, 5 days a week. I write on my breaks, I write on weekends, at my daughter's softball games, and I think about my plot points while I drive. I'm obsessed, not proud of it, but honest about it. I've been trying to read other author's work that have been corresponding with me, and wouldn't mind trying to read one of Mr. Butchers, but I'm not sure when I'll get to it.
3. I'm not a fan of reading a 2k word draft, too, Patty. I will if asked, but not a fan. I find it hard to relate to stopping at 2k words and wanting feedback. Why stop at 2k? Feels alien. I know it's helpful to a lot of people though, and important. Just not my personal preference to read or submit.

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If you don't read, then you don't know the book market; you don't know what's working, what's popular, what's bad. Make it a priority to start reading more: it will help your writing.

I read two or three books a week, and I find the more I read, the more I write. It's so important.

jeffschanz said:

3. I'm not a fan of reading a 2k word draft, too, Patty. I will if asked, but not a fan. I find it hard to relate to stopping at 2k words and wanting feedback. Why stop at 2k? Feels alien. I know it's helpful to a lot of people though, and important. Just not my personal preference to read or submit.

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Fan or not, many agents ask for a short sample with your sub. Three, five, and ten pages are all common requests. Partial requests are also as common as full requests (at least, imx.) Get used to sending 30-50 page samples if your query piques the agent's interest.

jeffschanz said:

I looked, and maybe I missed it if its posted anywhere, but I'm curious if anyone should or should not mention their beta reader responses to prospective agents.

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There's been a lot of other discussion in this thread, but in response to this alone:

Spherically bad idea. Bad no matter what direction you look at it. Nothing whatever to be gained by doing this, and it would look amateurish to do so. An agent isn't interested in what somebody else said about your story, unless the somebody else happened to be Stephen King or John Irving or Joyce Carol Oates.

caw

Everyone has to figure out what works best for them. My own preference is to get feedback from 2 or 3 beta readers, but I will also look for comments on just the opening chapters.

I also find it very useful to critique others, both to pay back/forward favors, and to hone my editing skills.

The key for me with beta readers is to find people who get what I'm writing, but who are good at pointing out where I can makeep my story stronger.

Bacchus said:

At least your mum read it! Mine won't read anything that isn't by Jeffrey Archer )c:



ETA - and, back on thread, OP, no, I wouldn't do this.

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I so feel you on this!

My Dad won't read anything I've written, even after a small publishing company picked me up. My Mom does, she loves reading, but it's frustrating my own Dad won't give it a shot.

I don't think you should ever say anyone thinks your writing is great/amazing/loved it, etc., in your query.

However, I think agents would like some assurance that your work is as polished as possible before it reached them - and know that the writer took every step to ensure that. That being said, a general statement that your work has been professionally edited, beta read, etc., should be put in the query.

I disagree, Rain777. The proof that your writing is good will be in the writing--it doesn't matter whether it's been edited or beta read or what have you if the writing itself isn't good.

Rain777 said:

I don't think you should ever say anyone thinks your writing is great/amazing/loved it, etc., in your query.

However, I think agents would like some assurance that your work is as polished as possible before it reached them - and know that the writer took every step to ensure that. That being said, a general statement that your work has been professionally edited, beta read, etc., should be put in the query.

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Telling an agent that the work they're reading was professionally edited is just telling the agent the author didn't produce that work on his or her own. That is NOT what you want an agent to think.

Fwiw, I've asked a fair few agents via #askagent if they care about the editing thing. None of them minded at all. BUT none of them gave it extra consideration, either, if they saw it on a query.

Rain777 said:

I don't think you should ever say anyone thinks your writing is great/amazing/loved it, etc., in your query.

However, I think agents would like some assurance that your work is as polished as possible before it reached them - and know that the writer took every step to ensure that. That being said, a general statement that your work has been professionally edited, beta read, etc., should be put in the query.

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Better, I think, to present as though it's a given that this is your best work. As Thedrellum said, the proof will be in the writing, not in pleading your polishedness's case.

No, please don't. That screams amateur. It's as bad as telling an agent your mother liked your book. An agent won't give a squat what some beta reader thinks unless his name is James Patterson maybe. Other than that, it's not the least bit important and mentioning it won't do you any favors. An agent expects your work to be reviewed prior to your submission. You don't need to tell them.

jeffschanz said:

I looked, and maybe I missed it if its posted anywhere, but I'm curious if anyone should or should not mention their beta reader responses to prospective agents.
I haven't done this yet, and wouldn't plan to without some assurance it wouldn't be detrimental. But since my beta responses thus far have been very positive, I was curious if there's a way to use that to my advantage other than just for my own satisfaction?
It seems like it might seem amateur to an agent, but I figured it would be best to hear the community's opinion on this. Thanks!

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Nope. Don't do it. Don't even think about it. As a former agent, I can promise you it will garner nothing but eye rolls; and yes, it does look very amateurish.

Also, if your mother loved the book---don't mention that, either.