What's the right amount of plot to include in one novel?

FlameMaster5 · Jun 12, 2018

Carrie in PA said:
Obviously, the correct answer is: [FONT=MathJax_Size1]∫[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]b[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]a[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]f[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main]([/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]x[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main])[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]d[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]x[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main]=[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main][[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Size1]∫[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]f[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main]([/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]x[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main])[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]d[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]x[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main]][/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]b[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]a[/FONT]

Once you've solved that, it's smooth sailing.

Some tips. Write your brief chapter by chapter synopsis before the novel's done. Then you can see what you're at, where you're going, and what you need to cut/add. You can do this for the whole trilogy, and maybe you'll find that you don't have a trilogy, or you have *almost* a trilogy and need more plot. Or whatever. But this can help give you some insight as to plot holes.

Another tip - Just write the first book and see where the natural end is. At that point, you can go back and see where you need to make changes.

Somewhere around 35-40,000 words is where I personally hit the brick wall of suckage that is the middle of every novel. It's possible you're there, where your mind is convinced everything is shit and it all needs reworked RIGHT. NOW. It doesn't. This is your first novel, and it's critical that you FINISH the FIRST DRAFT. I can't overstate the importance of this. There are literally millions of novels that never get finished because the author can't stop messing with the first part. Don't be that guy. Finish the first draft, THEN fix it.

Can I just thank Carrie as well here?
Because I SWEAR I am in the same boat as Ktdude on this, but where I'm not even past the first chapter draft and I want to stop and analyze EVERYTHING.
I think I needed to read and 'hear' this just as much. You can't edit what's not fully out in the open. XD

Shadow_Ferret · Jun 12, 2018

Ray Bradbury said, “Remember: Plot is no more than footprints left in the snow AFTER your characters have run by on their way to incredible destinations. Plot is observed after the fact rather than before. It cannot precede action. It is the chart that remains when an action is through. That is all Plot ever should be. It is human desire let run, running, and reaching a goal. It cannot be mechanical. It can only be dynamic.”

Just write your story.

DanielSTJ · Jun 12, 2018

I would say, without ruse: as much as is necessary.

Do not set borders, they will only limit you.

ktdude · Jun 13, 2018

Harlequin said:
Indeed we have, my bad! Been that kind of a month lol. (How could I forget a dissertation on Only Forward, otherwise!)

I'm currently doing a 5 act structure, which is sort of new for me. I planned 4, but story pacing required extra space for the latter half.

If you're not super plotty, perhaps take a look at what you want and then only refer back to structures to see what can be strengthened or improved. For example, there are not a lot of structures that would have been able to help me organise a story where the protagonist role is split across two different people who merge roles throughout and then swap midway through. I was discussing Save the Cat and some other structures with someone more plot-oriented recently, and that's something which stood out to me; I can apply those theories in hindsight to analyse how I've things fit together, but I would have struggled to start out writing it to a guide.

If you are very plotty or trying to be plottier then ignore all that. in the end you have to write the way that suits.

that sounds a safe approach - checking in every so often to see how I'm adhering (or not) to any particular plot convention. I just don't know what they are yet, and don't want to massively limit myself by learning them all and then obsessing over them. I'm definitely not 'plotty' (love the word!) I don't think, just the impression I'm getting as I learn about myself as a writer in this process - I'm much more of an 'idea and run with it' type person, which I'm hoping will see me through.

Having said that, this crisis of confidence has forced me to take a step back and notice a couple of glaring holes which need to be filled just for starters. I have a feeling I'd have come across them organically in the end but at least it gives me somewhere to go while I'm grappling the self doubt!

ktdude · Jun 13, 2018

Shadow_Ferret said:
Ray Bradbury said, “Remember: Plot is no more than footprints left in the snow AFTER your characters have run by on their way to incredible destinations. Plot is observed after the fact rather than before. It cannot precede action. It is the chart that remains when an action is through. That is all Plot ever should be. It is human desire let run, running, and reaching a goal. It cannot be mechanical. It can only be dynamic.”

Just write your story.

Thanks, this is refreshing to read - thank you. Again, probably exactly what I need to hear at this stage.

DanielSTJ said:
I would say, without ruse: as much as is necessary.

Do not set borders, they will only limit you.

Ditto!

I'm running with this thing. My characters are impatient, I've been stalling too long!

CathleenT · Jun 13, 2018

Regarding single volume vs. trilogy, the defining characteristic isn't length. I recently read a book that had no identifiable structure, no real story. It was all set up. It might have had enough words to qualify as a novelette, but there was no complete arc.

A trilogy isn't made by chopping a 300k work into three pieces--or at least, that's not the best way to construct one, in terms of reader satisfaction. A trilogy, at its best, is three distinct arcs that resolve into an overarching arc.

Btw, I'm talking genre fiction here, specifically fantasy in my case. If you're writing literary, other standards apply.

Vhb_Rocketman · Jun 13, 2018

Granted I don't have much experience but I figure I'll share what helped me.

I'm also working on my first novel, which as it turns out is part of a series.

I'm a big picture type of person. So to find out if the story I wanted to tell was one book worth or more I started at the top.

I took the story I wanted to tell and considered what major plot points I wanted to hit. Then I looked at thise points and asked myself, would I be willing to read a novel just about that. If so, it is it's own story. Then I did the same thing for these lower level plot points. If I can't see myself reading a story about these child plot points by themselves then I know I've hit the end of the book splitting.

Once I have the novels (aka main plot points that could sustain a novel on their own) only then did I start doimg a chapter by chapter breakdown.

But then again that's just the way i think.

P.S. - I think I just applied a requirements management process to story plotting....fascinating. Never really thought about it until now.

blacbird · Jun 13, 2018

Another pertinent question might be: How much story to include in one novel?

To which the correct answer is 100%.

"Plot" and "story" are not synonyms. Too many beginning writers, methinks, worry way too much about plot, and not nearly enough about story. Regardless of the blueprint you put together for a "plot", once you are actually writing, anything that does not contribute to "story" needs to be not there (in the completed manuscript).

caw

ktdude · Jun 14, 2018

blacbird said:
Another pertinent question might be: How much story to include in one novel?

To which the correct answer is 100%.

"Plot" and "story" are not synonyms. Too many beginning writers, methinks, worry way too much about plot, and not nearly enough about story. Regardless of the blueprint you put together for a "plot", once you are actually writing, anything that does not contribute to "story" needs to be not there (in the completed manuscript).

caw

This is a good point. I feel instinctively my current arc is the right length, I just hadn't fleshed it out. There will be more material for sequels but for now I'm going with what I have.

ktdude · Jun 14, 2018

I just wanted to stop by and say thanks to everyone for your really valuable insights and suggestions. I don't know what's happened - if it's this thread or just coincidence as I haven't actively followed any of the suggestions yet other than to turn them over in my mind - but I've had an absolute flood of plot connections come to me over the past 24 hours, I think something someone has said has cleared some sort of blockage in my writing process, so I thank you profusely for the advice!

Actually I guess it was everyone who said 'just write' as I wrote out a conversation between my protagonist and a character she hadn't interacted with yet and she gave me the rest.

FlameMaster5 · Jun 17, 2018

ktdude said:
I just wanted to stop by and say thanks to everyone for your really valuable insights and suggestions. I don't know what's happened - if it's this thread or just coincidence as I haven't actively followed any of the suggestions yet other than to turn them over in my mind - but I've had an absolute flood of plot connections come to me over the past 24 hours, I think something someone has said has cleared some sort of blockage in my writing process, so I thank you profusely for the advice!

Actually I guess it was everyone who said 'just write' as I wrote out a conversation between my protagonist and a character she hadn't interacted with yet and she gave me the rest.

That's wonderful to hear!

And through your writing and questions, I've also started just writing a Prologue.
I really don't care how it flows yet, or what all to detail, or how it sounds...
I'm just happy to write! And have fun doing so! ^^

The rest will come later. The hard part of editing.
But for now... I just gotta word vomit and get it out because it's making me sick!
(Like, really, it was making me depressed, but yeah... Have fun with that mental image! Lol)

Scythian · Jun 17, 2018

I think the ratio of plot to pages depends to a very large extent on the prose style of the writer.

If there are lots of descriptions and inner dialogues and psychology and stuff, then less plot is OK. If it’s all about action and intrigue, with the bare minimum of descriptions and human condition stuff—then stuff needs to happen constantly.

Thus if two writers work in the same genre—fantasy, thriller, horror, space opera—and write novels of the same length—say 100K—one will need about five major action scenes and one central concept to carry the story, while the other will need twenty major action scenes and ten central concepts to carry the story.

For one writer, the baddie suddenly starting to levitate and be all telekinetic and crap will be a bombastic climax of a book-long buildup, while for another writer this will happen in chapter 1 and will be just the start of a long string of exploding windows and mind controlled multitudes and energy beams shooting out of eyes.

What's the right amount of plot to include in one novel?

FlameMaster5

Shadow_Ferret

Court Jester

DanielSTJ

The Wandering Bard

ktdude

ktdude

CathleenT

I write

Vhb_Rocketman

blacbird

ktdude

ktdude

FlameMaster5

Scythian