What's the right amount of plot to include in one novel?

ktdude · Jun 10, 2018

I know that's a ridiculously subjective question. But I'm currently around 32,000 words into my first draft of my first novel, and I am realising there is a great deal of plot which I haven't even begun to cover yet. I've always felt that my current idea might stretch to two or even three volumes, but I didn't want to commit to plotting an entire trilogy without first checking I was any good at this writing malarkey, if you know what I mean.

So I guess my query is - how do I know if I've got too much material for one book? How do you cope with leaving lots of loose ends if it turns out to be too much? I think what I mean is, I've already written what I felt would be the ending of this novel, but what if that's the end of the second or even third book? I feel like I'm groping around in the dark here and it's stifling my creativity, I got to 32,000 very quickly and now I'm almost afraid to write because I'll knock out 1,500 words and realise I haven't progressed the plot at all. I have always struggled with being concise anyway, so I do think I'll cut a fair amount of words during the editing process, but still.

Sorry I realise this is probably about 6 separate questions, would love to hear your thoughts though, thanks lovely fellow writers

Elle. · Jun 10, 2018

Purely based on the info provided, if a great deal of the plot hasn't been covered at around 32,000 words I would say it could be more a case that you started your story too early or you are getting distracted with too much details or back story than too much material. You can either stop and review what you've got so far and ask yourself for each scene does it contribute to advancing the plot or is it just flourish or nice to know side info or you can power through to the end and do the reviewing once you've got a first draft. Or you could try to plot your story to see if there are enough material for several books or whether you have weak area at the start that needs trimming or losing. Can't help with the plotting through as I'm more of a panster.

ReeWritesBooks · Jun 10, 2018

For starters, I'd suggest restarting with a chapter-by-chapter outline. Start with the absolute latest beginning you can start with, and detail each chapter with maybe two or three plot points until you reach the end of the story. If you write an average of 2K words per chapter and end up with 45 chapters, you're fine. If you write 5K per chapter on average and end up with 45 chapters, you may be looking at a potential series, in which case you'd have to work hard to ensure book one would be a complete story with sequel potential.

Another thing I wanted to touch on: you said you can write 1500 words and realize you haven't advanced the story. Every word you write should be used to advance the plot. Go over everything that you have and get rid of any irrelevant description and dialogue. Everything needs to relate directly to something else. At least, that's how I keep from letting frivolous additions to the word count get in the way of the actual story. If it's not important, you don't need it. If it is important, it'll contribute to the plot.

blacbird · Jun 10, 2018

Several things:

As this is a first draft, I wouldn't overworry about mathematically excess wordage. First drafts are why God invented editing. I nearly always write long, sometimes way long, and have gotten good at slash-and-burn editing later. Part of that comes, I supposed, from having been a broadcast news reporter for some years, way back. If you have no more than thirty seconds to fill, you learn to be very terse. I wouldn't recommend being that minimal in a novel, but you will need to be able to see what needs to go and what needs to stay, when you get to the editing phase.

Chances are strong that your initial storytelling contains a lot of fluff verbiage. Hard to be certain about that, but it's pretty natural in a first draft. When you get to 50 posts, it might be worthwhile posting your beginning in the Share Your Work forum, and ask for feedback on these questions.

What is the genre?

Are you perhaps suffering from the But-the-reader-needs-to-know-this Syndrome, and wallowing in the Backstory Abyss? Does your story start with something actually happening among characters, or with scene-setting or historical background?

Try to be your reader. You have just picked up this book from a shelf in a bookstore, and opened to the first page to see what it is like. This is not easy for a writer to do, but it is as useful a critical skill as there is.

caw

indianroads · Jun 10, 2018

How do you cope with leaving lots of loose ends if it turns out to be too much?

I tend to be a linear thinker - and therefore find it easier to follow plot lines that are straight, with minimum concurrent stuff going on. I've set aside books by well known authors because the plot bounced around too much. If I get brought back into a scene and have to figure out what's going on, that's a negative mark in my book.

Mind you, I'm speaking only only about my reading preferences so YMMV.

Can you eliminate some plot points that are not relevant to the story arc?

ktdude · Jun 10, 2018

Elle. said:
Purely based on the info provided, if a great deal of the plot hasn't been covered at around 32,000 words I would say it could be more a case that you started your story too early or you are getting distracted with too much details or back story than too much material. You can either stop and review what you've got so far and ask yourself for each scene does it contribute to advancing the plot or is it just flourish or nice to know side info or you can power through to the end and do the reviewing once you've got a first draft. Or you could try to plot your story to see if there are enough material for several books or whether you have weak area at the start that needs trimming or losing. Can't help with the plotting through as I'm more of a panster.

Thanks for your thoughts. I think you're spot on re: the backstory stuff. I have to work out how to deal with this. It's speculative fiction, so back story is required, but I think there's bound to be a smarter way to go about it. First draft issues I guess!

ktdude · Jun 10, 2018

ReeWritesBooks said:
For starters, I'd suggest restarting with a chapter-by-chapter outline. Start with the absolute latest beginning you can start with, and detail each chapter with maybe two or three plot points until you reach the end of the story. If you write an average of 2K words per chapter and end up with 45 chapters, you're fine. If you write 5K per chapter on average and end up with 45 chapters, you may be looking at a potential series, in which case you'd have to work hard to ensure book one would be a complete story with sequel potential.

Another thing I wanted to touch on: you said you can write 1500 words and realize you haven't advanced the story. Every word you write should be used to advance the plot. Go over everything that you have and get rid of any irrelevant description and dialogue. Everything needs to relate directly to something else. At least, that's how I keep from letting frivolous additions to the word count get in the way of the actual story. If it's not important, you don't need it. If it is important, it'll contribute to the plot.

Thanks this is really helpful advice. I think a chapter by chapter outline is probably the most sensible way forward at this stage. Hopefully that way it will become clear if I have too much material.

Re: the word count and plot advancement, I know I have some editing to do that will significantly reduce the word count, but this is always something I struggle with. I need to work on it.

ktdude · Jun 10, 2018

blacbird said:
Several things:

As this is a first draft, I wouldn't overworry about mathematically excess wordage. First drafts are why God invented editing. I nearly always write long, sometimes way long, and have gotten good at slash-and-burn editing later. Part of that comes, I supposed, from having been a broadcast news reporter for some years, way back. If you have no more than thirty seconds to fill, you learn to be very terse. I wouldn't recommend being that minimal in a novel, but you will need to be able to see what needs to go and what needs to stay, when you get to the editing phase.

Chances are strong that your initial storytelling contains a lot of fluff verbiage. Hard to be certain about that, but it's pretty natural in a first draft. When you get to 50 posts, it might be worthwhile posting your beginning in the Share Your Work forum, and ask for feedback on these questions.

What is the genre?

Are you perhaps suffering from the But-the-reader-needs-to-know-this Syndrome, and wallowing in the Backstory Abyss? Does your story start with something actually happening among characters, or with scene-setting or historical background?

Try to be your reader. You have just picked up this book from a shelf in a bookstore, and opened to the first page to see what it is like. This is not easy for a writer to do, but it is as useful a critical skill as there is.

caw

Thanks this is useful. I definitely want to get some crits from here once I reach 50 posts, although I fear the outcome! The story start has a lot of backstory, and I guess that's where I need to tighten up and cut to the chase, or somehow weave backstory in with live action. It's a tricky balance and I'm still finding my way with it.

It's speculative fiction - not quite sci fi or fantasy but skirting around the edges of both.

Actually speaking of being your own reader, I converted the text to speech using an app the other day to hear how it sounded it audio. It was very stilted (satnav style) but it helped me pick out areas that needed cutting and some that needed further explanation so that was really useful.

ktdude · Jun 10, 2018

indianroads said:
I tend to be a linear thinker - and therefore find it easier to follow plot lines that are straight, with minimum concurrent stuff going on. I've set aside books by well known authors because the plot bounced around too much. If I get brought back into a scene and have to figure out what's going on, that's a negative mark in my book.

Mind you, I'm speaking only only about my reading preferences so YMMV.

Can you eliminate some plot points that are not relevant to the story arc?

I definitely need to work on a more solid outline. My plot actually doesn't just around that much - it had two timelines but within each it's very settled, POV wise, so it's merely a case of eliminating unnecessary backstory and figuring out what will advance the plot more quickly, I guess. I'm comfortable with the direction of the plot, just need to figure out how much detail to go into within some areas. It's a minefield!

DarienW · Jun 11, 2018

I say, just write and don't worry yet. I can plot some, but my characters interfere and I'm better off just writing loosely and seeing where it goes.

As to whether it's a trilogy or just one loaded book, you'll know. Word count is one way, and I have written a trilogy. For me, it was the word count that had me in there chopping like mad on all three. Beta readers helped with unnecessary back story, but just write it first. It can even take some distance to readdress what's needed and what isn't. It helps you as a writer to get all the words and story out you want to express. It takes your inner editor to shape it after.

Another thing about trilogies, and yes, they should stand alone, so you'll see when you write it where to end on a part and begin another. I do know trilogies are out there with cliff hangers. Book 2 on "The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo" comes to mind.

I hope this helps. Best of luck with your book, or trilogy!

Carrie in PA · Jun 11, 2018

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Once you've solved that, it's smooth sailing.

Some tips. Write your brief chapter by chapter synopsis before the novel's done. Then you can see what you're at, where you're going, and what you need to cut/add. You can do this for the whole trilogy, and maybe you'll find that you don't have a trilogy, or you have *almost* a trilogy and need more plot. Or whatever. But this can help give you some insight as to plot holes.

Another tip - Just write the first book and see where the natural end is. At that point, you can go back and see where you need to make changes.

Somewhere around 35-40,000 words is where I personally hit the brick wall of suckage that is the middle of every novel. It's possible you're there, where your mind is convinced everything is shit and it all needs reworked RIGHT. NOW. It doesn't. This is your first novel, and it's critical that you FINISH the FIRST DRAFT. I can't overstate the importance of this. There are literally millions of novels that never get finished because the author can't stop messing with the first part. Don't be that guy. Finish the first draft, THEN fix it.

ktdude · Jun 11, 2018

DarienW said:
I say, just write and don't worry yet. I can plot some, but my characters interfere and I'm better off just writing loosely and seeing where it goes.

As to whether it's a trilogy or just one loaded book, you'll know. Word count is one way, and I have written a trilogy. For me, it was the word count that had me in there chopping like mad on all three. Beta readers helped with unnecessary back story, but just write it first. It can even take some distance to readdress what's needed and what isn't. It helps you as a writer to get all the words and story out you want to express. It takes your inner editor to shape it after.

Another thing about trilogies, and yes, they should stand alone, so you'll see when you write it where to end on a part and begin another. I do know trilogies are out there with cliff hangers. Book 2 on "The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo" comes to mind.

I hope this helps. Best of luck with your book, or trilogy!

Thanks for the advice in particular relating to trilogies! Actually after spending all of this morning worrying about plotting and outlines, I got 7 chapters into my outline and realised that I needed to go back and write some more to find out what was going to happen in a certain chapter! That's how it's been with me all the way along, and is why I've largely abandoned most of my original plot brainstorm, as it's grown into something completely different to what I expected. So I'm going to go with this advice for a while and see where I get! As you suggest, the characters will probably decide for me in the end

ktdude · Jun 11, 2018

Carrie in PA said:
Obviously, the correct answer is: [FONT=MathJax_Size1]∫[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]b[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]a[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]f[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main]([/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]x[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main])[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]d[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]x[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main]=[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main][[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Size1]∫[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]f[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main]([/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]x[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main])[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]d[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]x[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main]][/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]b[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]a[/FONT]

Once you've solved that, it's smooth sailing.

Some tips. Write your brief chapter by chapter synopsis before the novel's done. Then you can see what you're at, where you're going, and what you need to cut/add. You can do this for the whole trilogy, and maybe you'll find that you don't have a trilogy, or you have *almost* a trilogy and need more plot. Or whatever. But this can help give you some insight as to plot holes.

Another tip - Just write the first book and see where the natural end is. At that point, you can go back and see where you need to make changes.

Somewhere around 35-40,000 words is where I personally hit the brick wall of suckage that is the middle of every novel. It's possible you're there, where your mind is convinced everything is shit and it all needs reworked RIGHT. NOW. It doesn't. This is your first novel, and it's critical that you FINISH the FIRST DRAFT. I can't overstate the importance of this. There are literally millions of novels that never get finished because the author can't stop messing with the first part. Don't be that guy. Finish the first draft, THEN fix it.

Thanks Carrie I really needed to hear this. Does this also apply to non-linear writing - ie I didn't start at the beginning, I've just been jumping about all over writing scenes and interactions rather than starting at the beginning and moving chronologically. I have swung back to being of the opinion I definitely need to just write - I've given myself enough of a clue having summarised the first few chapters to realise that I've got a lot more writing to do before I can obtain a clear sense of exactly what is happening overall. THANK YOU!

Enlightened · Jun 11, 2018

Carrie in PA said:
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This is fantastic.

OP: If you are writing to sell a book, there are industry standards to follow (acceptable lengths for MG, YA, Adult, and so forth). If your book is heavy on world-building, and you want to sell the book, there might be other issues (e.g. if your learning curve is too steep for MGers). I do not know if you are following a plotting method or not (e.g. hero's journey), but these help you decide when you need to transition your storytelling.

FJaneH · Jun 11, 2018

You've had some great advice above, but I just wanted to add something that works for me. I go into a story with a vague idea of where it will go, and how it will get there. When I draft, I plot out the beats in quarters. So I will figure out what's going to happen at the end of the first quarter and write it, aiming for about 18k words. Then plot the next quarter and write it, etc. This allows me to sort of wing it as I go, but gives me enough structure to keep on topic to get to major beat at the end of the quarter.

Harlequin · Jun 11, 2018

speculative fiction is usually literary-ish fic with light spec elements (these days, anyway). Not that it matters.

I also write all over the board, and yes developmental synopses still help. In fact, they're absolutely critical if you're trying to finish in a nonlinear fashion.

ktdude · Jun 11, 2018

Enlightened said:
This is fantastic.

OP: If you are writing to sell a book, there are industry standards to follow (acceptable lengths for MG, YA, Adult, and so forth). If your book is heavy on world-building, and you want to sell the book, there might be other issues (e.g. if your learning curve is too steep for MGers). I do not know if you are following a plotting method or not (e.g. hero's journey), but these help you decide when you need to transition your storytelling.

I am somewhere in between in terms of world-building. The vast majority of the action is set in the UK in the near future, so not a great deal to worry about there although there is a fair amount of back story to do with political developments and so on. This is where it gets tricky as there is another kind of 'mirror' dream world which I think will become much more important in books 2 and 3 (as I think it's definitely stretching toward a trilogy). So I don't know how much world-building I really need to do now. Probably not too much.

Re: a plotting technique, I'm reading the Hero's Journey but it derailed me somewhat - any other tried and tested formula or should I just go with my gut?

FJaneH said:
You've had some great advice above, but I just wanted to add something that works for me. I go into a story with a vague idea of where it will go, and how it will get there. When I draft, I plot out the beats in quarters. So I will figure out what's going to happen at the end of the first quarter and write it, aiming for about 18k words. Then plot the next quarter and write it, etc. This allows me to sort of wing it as I go, but gives me enough structure to keep on topic to get to major beat at the end of the quarter.

Thanks, good advice. I like the idea of quarters and it might be a better fit than trying to sandwich everything into a Hero's Journey format which is where I got stuck in the first place.

ktdude · Jun 11, 2018

Harlequin said:
speculative fiction is usually literary-ish fic with light spec elements (these days, anyway). Not that it matters.

I also write all over the board, and yes developmental synopses still help. In fact, they're absolutely critical if you're trying to finish in a nonlinear fashion.

I'm a little sketchy as to genre at the moment. It's dreamworld stuff with near future dystopia, my main characters are in their late 20s/early 30s (yet to decide) so I think it's outside of YA, but not 'different' enough to be Fantasy and not 'hard' enough to be sci fi - I don't think. So I'm sticking with speculative for now but tentatively!

OK so you advise synopses - I'm going to try and run with a mixture of just rolling with the writing and keeping track in some kind of master chapter plotter, as I've got a lot of beginning and end at the minute but not a lot of middle so I think it could help me figure out what's missing.

Thanks everyone this is all really helpful! This place is great

Harlequin · Jun 11, 2018

It's outside of YA, yes. Adult books can have children protagonists sometimes, but Ya books can't have adult protagonists.

Def spec fic by the sounds of it. Dreamworld is almost a category unto itself (my current MS is dreamworld) but it's not queryable as such so yeah, spec fic umbrella is good.

Emma Darwin has a good article about writing a synopsis for yourself: http://emmadarwin.typepad.com/thisitchofwriting/2016/07/please-dont-hate-me-for-loving-synopses.html

ktdude · Jun 11, 2018

Harlequin said:
It's outside of YA, yes. Adult books can have children protagonists sometimes, but Ya books can't have adult protagonists.

Def spec fic by the sounds of it. Dreamworld is almost a category unto itself (my current MS is dreamworld) but it's not queryable as such so yeah, spec fic umbrella is good.

Emma Darwin has a good article about writing a synopsis for yourself: http://emmadarwin.typepad.com/thisitchofwriting/2016/07/please-dont-hate-me-for-loving-synopses.html

Great thanks I will check that article out. Yes I think instinctively I felt spec fic was the best. I remember you saying - we talked about Only Forward!

It's fun and definitely where my passion lies, entwined with a healthy dollop of dystopia.

Enlightened · Jun 11, 2018

ktdude said:
Re: a plotting technique, I'm reading the Hero's Journey but it derailed me somewhat - any other tried and tested formula or should I just go with my gut?

There are many three-act formats. Hero's Journey is one. I'd research these. Michael Hauge's six stage plot structure is another three-act alternative. The archplot structure is worth looking at.

Take a look at Plotting with the Eight C's by Lara Willard. There's a graphic here (click Download button).

Look into Try-Fail Cycles (aka Scaling). There are chart examples showing plot and pinch points, such as Star Wars IV: A New Hope. I find these useful and they coincide with getting to different phases of a plotting method you choose.

Look up Iceberg theory and learning curves (if you are worried about too much back story, world-building, or anything that requires a lot of explanation before you can start telling the story). The visible part of the iceberg is all the information the reader gets. This is increased throughout the book. Doing it all, at the start, may get readers disinterested in the book. Depending on age group your book is, it has to be more gradual the younger the readership. A steep learning curve can have a lot of backstory or world-building. These can be dispersed throughout the book instead of all up front.

Just for fun, you may want to Google the Bechdel test, if you have not already.

Harlequin · Jun 11, 2018

Indeed we have, my bad!

Been that kind of a month lol. (How could I forget a dissertation on Only Forward, otherwise!)

I'm currently doing a 5 act structure, which is sort of new for me. I planned 4, but story pacing required extra space for the latter half.

If you're not super plotty, perhaps take a look at what you want and then only refer back to structures to see what can be strengthened or improved. For example, there are not a lot of structures that would have been able to help me organise a story where the protagonist role is split across two different people who merge roles throughout and then swap midway through. I was discussing Save the Cat and some other structures with someone more plot-oriented recently, and that's something which stood out to me; I can apply those theories in hindsight to analyse how I've things fit together, but I would have struggled to start out writing it to a guide.

If you are very plotty or trying to be plottier then ignore all that. in the end you have to write the way that suits.

ktdude · Jun 11, 2018

Enlightened said:
There are many three-act formats. Hero's Journey is one. I'd research these. Michael Hauge's six stage plot structure is another three-act alternative. The archplot structure is worth looking at.

Take a look at Plotting with the Eight C's by Lara Willard. There's a graphic here (click Download button).

Look into Try-Fail Cycles (aka Scaling). There are chart examples showing plot and pinch points, such as Star Wars IV: A New Hope. I find these useful and they coincide with getting to different phases of a plotting method you choose.

Look up Iceberg theory and learning curves (if you are worried about too much back story, world-building, or anything that requires a lot of explanation before you can start telling the story). The visible part of the iceberg is all the information the reader gets. This is increased throughout the book. Doing it all, at the start, may get readers disinterested in the book. Depending on age group your book is, it has to be more gradual the younger the readership. A steep learning curve can have a lot of backstory or world-building. These can be dispersed throughout the book instead of all up front.

Just for fun, you may want to Google the Bechdel test, if you have not already.

Great info thanks, I have some research to do!

No worries here re: the Bechdel test, my protagonist is a kick-ass female and there are two other strong female characters. Plenty of interaction between them and they've barely mentioned a man yet

Enlightened · Jun 12, 2018

Sounds good about the Betchdel test. No problem.

angeliz2k · Jun 12, 2018

Well, think it out, and then write it out.

Sit down, write out the major things you want to happen. It doesn't even need to be an outline, just the points you want to hit. Then give it a really good look and ask yourself if you can contain it all in one book.

At this point, that'll be only a guess, but if you think you can, you'll have to write it out--that is, just start writing and see how it comes out.

If you think there's just too much material, look for good endpoints. If you decide on multiple books, the first will have to stand on its own, so keep that in mind. Then decide, generally, the arc each book will take--where it'll start and end--and the arc of the series. Then . . . write it out and see if it works.

I've gotten pretty good at knowing how long a work is going to turn out to be as I write it, but mostly you don't know for sure until you actually do it. I started a novella and ended up with 93k words, haha. So, yeah.

What's the right amount of plot to include in one novel?

ktdude

Elle.

ReeWritesBooks

blacbird

indianroads

Wherever I go, there I am.

ktdude

ktdude

ktdude

ktdude

DarienW

Carrie in PA

Write All The Words!

ktdude

ktdude

Enlightened

Always Learning

FJaneH

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!

ktdude

ktdude

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!

ktdude

Enlightened

Always Learning

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!

ktdude

Enlightened

Always Learning

angeliz2k

never mind the shorty