Two questions about engaging the reader

Patty said:

Gillhoughly - What if the books that inspired me are old, and unpublishable today?

Click to expand...

Those are the best kind! I love the tempest in a teapot stories of Mapp and Lucia by E.F. Benson, which would be rejected, I'm sure, by today's market. The writing is superb, sneaks up on you. I think suspense romance writer Mary Stewart would be told to make her heroines sexually aggressive and to patch in nookie scenes, but her works are word-art as-is. My favorite Pulitzer winner, A Confederacy of Dunces might get sold in today's market, but some dolt in editing would insist on making the oddball main character "likeable" -- which would destroy the book. He's sort of likeable, but in a train wreck kind of way; you're too fascinated by his antics to put the book down.

The books that inspire you? Hold them close and dip in when you need a battery recharge.

As for your specific issue on making the protag likeable, I had the same issue with my first book. He was in a dire situation, getting into his backstory could come later, and I bled heart's blood making that first chapter shine. But one of the many editors who rejected it was kind enough to scribble "I don't feel any sympathy for this hero."

**I** had plenty of sympathy for him, but forgot that a cold reader can go only by what's on the page, not what's in my head. I added a line to let the reader know he was scared, as in breath-catching terrified. Next time out, it sold. After that, I made sure to have characters share their emotions with the readers. A tweak here and there may be all you need. I'm not "in yer face" with emotions, but it's enough to haul readers in.

Some writers have irritated me by avoiding the exploration of a character's emotions. I love this one guy's work, still do, but time and again he did not explore a character's emotions. Even one line of reaction would have been enough, but he held his distance.

Some writers are afraid to get "emotionally naked" through their characters. It means they'd have to spill their own emotions onto a page and they don't want readers (or family / friends) to know what they've been through in life. They hold it in. They may be unaware of doing it, too.

Others, and I love them, rip off the clothes and go streaking.

I don't have much good to say about many current market writers, either, but now and then there is a gem in the crowd.

This is one more reason self-publish looks good. I suspect I am aiming for something that in the end doesn't matter anyway!)

Click to expand...

Sounds like a plan. I'm doing that for a number of projects that I know most publishers would turn down!

The idea that you have to sacrifice style is a false one, I would argue.

I prefer older books and more classic styles. It's not one or the other; you can borrow from current convention and find ways to fuse it with something that appeals more to you and has your own stamp on it.

Patty said:

Wow.

I keep missing the direct approach. What an interesting idea.

Click to expand...

It's probably a little too on-the-nose, but at least his conflict is there, even if told, and not shown. Now that it's up front, you can add all those details that flesh it out. You might dump those lines later, but at least it's a launching pad.
BTW, giant grains of salt here. I've read on AW that a person who says there's a problem with the writing may be right, but a person who tries to re-write it for you is probably wrong. I shouldn't have done that, but I just don't have the vocabulary to explain what I was thinking.

I'm not sure if this will be helpful or not, but one of the most useful rejections I ever got asked why my MC was noticing the things she was in my descriptions. So it's not just that the second sun is about to set or that the mountain is tall, but that both of these realizations are important to your character in some way and if you help us see that, you invite us in.

Patty said:

1. I thought I had made my protagonist likable, but just got a few comments back ... and he isn't, not yet. Are there simple tips on this? I know the 'pet the dog' trick. Should I make sure, for example, that one of the other characters likes him in some way in order for the reader to like him? (at the moment it's all conflict in chapter 1). I can also add more self reflection, more thought/reaction from my character - I am guessing this is a good way to make him relatable? I thought I had enough, but maybe I need more. Any specific suggestions here on increasing likability would be great...

Click to expand...

Having read your paragraph, the issue isn't likeability but relatability. Granted that it's hard to tell from just a short bit of text, but there's nothing in there that would make me dislike him. But there's nothing to relate to or empathise with. This is to do with the lack of goal thing that everyone else has been discussing.

2. I have comments from a single reader that there is too much going on ... and not enough going on at the same time. The reader understands this is counterintuitive. I'm trying to understand how else to think about the feedback so that I can address it. Here's the situation in the story: The protagonist suffers a number of conflicts up front - first interpersonal with family and others, then physical conflicts with the elements. But my reader thinks that despite all these conflicts and incidents, there is 'not much happening.' So - I'm wondering if this is related to #1. In other words, if the character was more relatable would these events feel like 'more is going on'? Does my thought process make sense?

Click to expand...

I'd have to read a much bigger chunk of text to have an opinion about it. If you've posted it in SYW drop me a message with the link and I'll have a look.

And my reader is encouraging me toward a more literary style. In general, do folks fall into stories with that sort of style more easily? (think: a little more flowery, maybe voicier, longer sentences, beautiful prose) . . . I think I need to be very careful on this one, as I can see botching it horribly. I also really disliked the book that my reader suggested as an inspiration, couldn't finish it, horribly long sentences that I wanted to take a weedwhacker to. But, maybe my brain is the wrong brain here.

Any thoughts?

Click to expand...

Don't try to emulate a style that you don't like. That would be pointless.

You probably can find ways to bring more of your own and/or your main character's voice into your story, but it has to be done in a way that feels right for you and that you like. If it doesn't feel right to you and you don't like it, you can't expect the reader to like it or find it authentic.

Patty said:

I know this isn't share your work, but I really thought I had a goal and some pretty sentences in the first paragraph of the book. (and then kept it going.) His goal as stated here is what he works toward in his first three chapters (until first major emotional marker). Is it not clear enough what his starting goal is? Maybe the reader needs to know more about 'why' beyond the few phrases I have tucked in?


Alphonse di Marc and his mother arrived at City Hall at first sunset. He lingered behind her on the steps to the building, second sun hadn’t yet fallen behind the mountains west of Sengalia, but it would soon. That saw-tooth range. At sixteen thousand feet Mount Tura soared highest, and its distinctive mountaintop pinnacles could be seen throughout the city. For years he’d wanted to scale those spires, get some altitude, a little breathing space, see the world from another vantage point. Tura beckoned, two fingers in the sky.

Click to expand...

I agree that there's no goal evident in this, or anything in particular to identify with. A vague wish to climb a mountain isn't a story problem - and he's felt that way for years. As mentioned by others, we don't know what he wants breathing space from.

Is this a story about mountain climbing? From your later post, you say it is. So you need to emphasise this more. I'd suggest making it clear in the first sentence - state it plainly. Give some idea about how much it means to him. The lines above only show a vague wish. People have vague wishes about all sorts of things, but it's not the same as having a burning ambition to do something. Also, you need to give some indication as to why he hasn't climbed it already. And what's preventing him from just going there right now and climbing it?

Note: it's not clear if he's a child or an adult. He's with his mother, but we don't know if he's grown up and she's elderly and needs him to accompany her, or if, say, he's in his 20s and she's in her 40s and they just happen to be doing some kind of business together, or if he's a little boy and she's got to go to City Hall and he's too young to stay at home on his own. If he's a little boy, then that gives a reason why he hasn't already climbed the mountain. More clarity about things like this may help.


From a worldbuilding point of view, "City Hall" sounds too specifically USA for a place that has two sunsets. It's plausible that many civilisations would have something that's similar to a city hall. In Britain we have borough council offices, county council offices and town halls (it varies from place to place). If you want to give the impression that it's a distinct civilisation/culture on another planet, as opposed to a facsimile of the USA transplanted in space, I'd recommend tweaking the name a little. This may be something that's less of an issue to readers in the USA, as they will probably see "City Hall" as a default term for those kinds of buildings. But for me, if I see "City Hall", it tells me a story's set in the USA.

Patty said:

I know the 'pet the dog' trick.

Click to expand...

As a reader, if I had the feeling that you were trying to use a shortcut to get me to like a character, I'd automatically like him less.

Should I make sure, for example, that one of the other characters likes him in some way in order for the reader to like him?

Click to expand...

Also feels a little obvious. You might get more traction if you had a character outright hate your MC for no good reason.

I'm not good at character likability in my own writing, but I have worked on some techniques to mitigate that.

For example, my antagonists are always so much worse than my protagonists. By putting my MC in opposition to someone so abhorrent, she looks better in comparison. Bonus points if the other characters just love the antagonist!

I felt the excerpt had space for more internal world, but I always say that because I'm obsessed with interiority.

If yo'ure still looking for betas in July I should have cleared enough of my beta plate to take more on, and would be happy to read.

Scattered thoughts: I read Mark Lawrence's novels. I don't like his characters, but I read on.

If literary is not what you enjoy writing, why change your style to suit one reader? If you disliked the book your reader suggested for inspiration, why would you even consider trying to emulate it?

Why not trust your own instincts? Why not write your book and find a beta after it is finished?

Harlequin said:

The idea that you have to sacrifice style is a false one, I would argue.

I prefer older books and more classic styles. It's not one or the other; you can borrow from current convention and find ways to fuse it with something that appeals more to you and has your own stamp on it.

Click to expand...

Ramsey Campbell and Peter Straub are two "horror writers" who are totally old school in this sense and don't give a toss. 90% of their books are nuances, foreboding, atmospherics, landscapes, scene-setting, and internal dialogues. Even if the books are about psychopathic killers or supernatural predators of some sort.

Whereas the "mature" post-1990 Dean Koontz is a good example of someone using the contemporary scaffolding of a mainstream thriller, and hanging on it unashamedly Dickensian/Hawthornian narration, interspaced with modern dialogues and shootouts, chases, telekinesis, mutants, and sinister secret cabals. As in, for example, From the Corner of His Eye. Or his current Jane Hawk series, which is an incredible mix of florid, heavy 19th century style narration with lightning fast action, snappy dialogues, and icy suspense.

But perhaps one has to be absolutely terrific in order to pull this off. The more you write in ways that don't conform to current fashion, IMO, the more every misstep in the MS counts against you, when you're still a newcomer.