Two questions about engaging the reader

It's really impossible to know without actually reading the work.

But in general--

1. If you have a character who's not likeable (but you want him to be), then he needs to behave in a likeable way and show likeable character traits. If there's a reason he's not likeable (maybe he starts out unlikeable but will end up in a better place), then something about him needs to be intriguing enough that the reader will want to stick with him. So giving him more internals so that the reader can see his (hopefully at least somewhat sympathetic) thought processes would be a start.

2. It's possible to have things happening but no sense that the story is actually headed anywhere. No goals. Nothing that the character wants badly enough to pursue it.

3. Style. Is the reader actually wanting you to adopt a different style, or is the reader just wanting improvement in the writing? Improvement could simply mean writing that flows better (maybe there are too many short, choppy sentences?) and fresher, more original phrasing (not necessarily "flowery"). Ultimately, your voice is your own. Style can evolve, but it's linked to voice and if your voice is not literary, don't try to change it. Be who you are. Which leaves room for improvement and gaining new skills, but doesn't demand that you change to suit a reader's taste.

Hi Patty. I understand your struggle. Here are my two cents plus a grain of salt.

We need to understand what your character wants right away, so we can root for him. We need to connect with the main character immediately, and one way to do that is to let us know his goal so we can get behind him. This relates to your question #2, I think. If we can understand your MC's goal, that will be the main thread that drives through all the conflicts you describe in your first chapter. It might seem like there is a lot going on because there's nothing tying it together right now. And it might feel a little empty because we don't know WHY the MC is going through all this stuff.

Not for nothing, everyone loves an underdog. A little sympathy might help us get on board with your MC's goals.

I hope this is helpful! Good luck!

Is this the only feedback you've gotten? I dunno if the few comments are from one person or several.

Patty said:

1. I thought I had made my protagonist likable, but just got a few comments back ... and he isn't, not yet. Are there simple tips on this? I know the 'pet the dog' trick. Should I make sure, for example, that one of the other characters likes him in some way in order for the reader to like him? (at the moment it's all conflict in chapter 1). I can also add more self reflection, more thought/reaction from my character - I am guessing this is a good way to make him relatable? I thought I had enough, but maybe I need more. Any discrete suggestions here on increasing likability would be great...

WHY, or how, in what particular way, if known, isn't he likable (to them)?

2. I have comments from a single reader that there is too much going on ... and not enough going on at the same time. The reader understands this is counterintuitive. I'm trying to understand how else to think about the feedback so that I can address it. Here's the situation in the story: The protagonist suffers a number of conflicts up front - first interpersonal with family and others, then physical conflicts with the elements. But my reader thinks that despite all these conflicts and incidents, there is 'not much happening.' So - I'm wondering if this is related to #1. In other words, if the character was more relatable would these events feel like 'more is going on'? Does my thought process make sense?

That sounds like possibly (grain of salt, I have no idea past what's here so very thin info) there's no overarching thing clear, and it's a series of things that don't seem to connect to a whole. Like, if you'd missed the first half hour of Ocean's 11 and come in cold to just see random people all doing these different tasks, and talking to each other, but had no idea of the connected nature and the relation to the heist -- it'd seem like there was a lot of shit going on, but nothing actually going on, because all the fairly fast-cut prep tasks when each member is doing stuff like setting up cameras, testing balloons, watching Andy Garcia, meeting with ppl, talking to the gaming commission guy (if you haven't seen Ocean's 11, this is a really incomprehensible example, sorry), don't have any import beyond the moment unless you understand their relation to the grand scheme.

And my reader is encouraging me toward a more literary style. In general, do folks fall into stories with that sort of style more easily? (think: a little more flowery, maybe voicier, longer sentences, beautiful prose) . . . I think I need to be very careful on this one, as I can see botching it horribly. I also really disliked the book that my reader suggested as an inspiration, couldn't finish it, horribly long sentences that I wanted to take a weedwhacker to. But, maybe my brain is the wrong brain here.

Any thoughts?

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If that's not your style, that's not your style.

But since we don't know what he needs breathing space from, the pretty sentences don't really mean much.

(Oh, and watch for comma splices. )

Patty said:

I know this isn't share your work, but I really thought I had a goal and some pretty sentences in the first paragraph of the book. (and then kept it going.) His goal as stated here is what he works toward in his first three chapters (until first major emotional marker). Is it not clear enough what his starting goal is? Maybe the reader needs to know more about 'why' beyond the few phrases I have tucked in?


Alphonse di Marc and his mother arrived at City Hall at first sunset. He lingered behind her on the steps to the building, second sun hadn’t yet fallen behind the mountains west of Sengalia, but it would soon. That saw-tooth range. At sixteen thousand feet Mount Tura soared highest, and its distinctive mountaintop pinnacles could be seen throughout the city. For years he’d wanted to scale those spires, get some altitude, a little breathing space, see the world from another vantage point. Tura beckoned, two fingers in the sky.

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I don't get any goal from that, unless he becomes a rock climber or something, but that all just reads as an aside.

In addition, and not that you asked, but there are some grammar/punctuation issues that make that hard to parse.

I wouldn't focus on them at all in the initial paragraph. I'd mention them in passing, but I'd concentrate on the matter at hand: why are they arriving at City Hall? Then, assuming what happens in City Hall introduces the story's conflict (or at least some of it) then on the way out he can again see the mountains and think about what they represent, and then his need to get away will have context.

But that's just me.

Agree with Marissa.

I didn't read it the way you intend, as it starts off with City Hall and then it reads like he's just musing about wanting space, to be out of the city, feel the breeze. I don't get literal mountain climbing as any kind of driving goal, though I don't need a book-level driving goal from the first few sentences.

Do I know Clooney wants to get Garcia by robbing his casino in the first five minutes? Nope.

It occurred to me after responding above that part of the problem with Alphonse's perceived unlikeability might stem from that opening paragraph: all we see is him wanting to escape, without knowing why--which doesn't make him seem very heroic.

It's really hard to get a feel for a character and their goal in one paragraph. I know some do manage it, and it's an interesting writing exercise, but I've read plenty of great books that don't. I would need to read more and would be happy to, I expect to need to read at least a chapter before I'm sucked in. So don't put too much pressure on the opener.

What I would say is that the stuff about the mountains is easy to skim over, I just see description that I have no connection to yet (especially as they are at City Hall, rather than, I don't know, the base of the mountain ready to climb it, in which case I'd be more invested in what it looked like). I reckon once I know him more and know it's his goal that I will be happier to linger over the description. It might be that your reader skimmed it too?

When I read it, I assumed it was about he and his mother doing something at City Hall. On a foreign planet (two suns), so can't even assume that it's the kind of thing that we would go to City Hall for.

From that description, I can't tell if it's a climbing mountain, or a looking-at mountain. Somehow, 'Mount Tura' sounds like a single peak, not twins. Surely whoever named it would have made some reference to it. 'The Spires', 'the Sisters', 'Fred and Ethel'. Check out the meaning of 'The Tetons'. Even foreign or alien names have meanings.

And, there's no sign of personality. Not likeable, not dislikeable. He's not following his mother 'eagerly' or 'reluctantly' or even 'thoughtfully'. He seems to have a vague desire to get out of the city. Much as we might talk about 'getting away from it all'. That's about it.

How about cutting to the chase?
'If it weren't for his mother's pointless visit to City Hall, Alphonse would be up on Mount Tula now. He was trained, his gear was packed, his crew was ready. Every minute of nodding and smiling was delaying his dream.'
Then, up the stairs to City Hall.

Go with your gut.

Patty said:

1. I thought I had made my protagonist likable, but just got a few comments back ... and he isn't, not yet. Are there simple tips on this?

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The simplest: go to a library or bookstore, go to the aisle with books like yours, open the first pages of at least 20 books by different writers and read those. Then figure out what the writers did to hook you on their characters.

Also, go to aisles with books NOT like yours. Are those writers able to engage you with their characters? You can learn a lot from them.

Any discrete suggestions here on increasing likability would be great...

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First of all, ignore MS spell check correcting "discreet" to "discrete" -- which is a math term. Mine screws up that way all the time, curse it. For a time I thought it was Brit vs US spelling. Argh.

2. I have comments from a single reader that there is too much going on ... and not enough going on at the same time. The reader understands this is counter-intuitive.

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This reader, being conflicted, needs to be thanked for their time and you seek out other readers, preferably here on AW.

If this reader is not a writer, he/she will give an opinion, but no useful suggestions on how to fix things and muddle you up. I ran into that with my first beta readers. They knew something was something wrong with my opening, but waffled on just what it was. I finally figured out it was boring as cardboard and cut the first five pages. THAT worked!

And my reader is encouraging me toward a more literary style.

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I encourage you to not hang so much on the opinion of one person, however much you respect them. I had an editor -- the senior one at a big five house no less -- tell me to make a specific change to the climax of a book and include a character she really liked. I tried. The narrative came to a grinding halt. The fact stood that the other characters didn't want him there. (Weird how that happens!) I thought that editor knew more than I did about writing books. Maybe so, but not about writing MY books. I chucked her idea into the trash and moved on with the book.

Follow your own voice and inclinations, AKA listen to your gut. It's always going to be right.

I also really disliked the book that my reader suggested as an inspiration, couldn't finish it, horribly long sentences that I wanted to take a weedwhacker to. But, maybe my brain is the wrong brain here.

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Your brain is on target with such a reaction. (And your gut.) I've had many books pressed on me over time, with the readers singing the praises of this or that writer. Most of those books were -- um -- not to my taste. The ones intended as inspiration were usually flung across the room, bestsellers, too! The good thing from that is I learned what NOT to write!

Tell you what: take a break from your book. It need not be long, but take a break. You sound like you need it. Sticking stubbornly with the problem and tinkering with the words can lead you into overworking the writing. After you knead bread, you cover it, walk off and let the dough rise. Your subconscious may want a time out. Trust it to figure things in its own way.

Go re-read the books that originally inspired you that you found on your own. What did those writers do to get your enthusiasm going? What do you like about the characters? How did the writer introduce them?

You've been working hard, it's okay to blow out the cobwebs. When you're ready to tackle it, you'll know.

A character need only be compelling.

They won't be likeable to everyone. I mean, they won't be compelling to everyone, either, but it's easier to make them compelling to lots of people than likeable (I think, anyway).

If your readers like them, as well, then that's a bonus imo.

Patty, I think a lot of getting readers to like a character more -can- come from cutting out the filtering words. Just from a few I've beta'ed myself, I know it reall can make things feel a bit stilted and I'm not so engaged with the character. I read an amazing book 'Putting the fire into fiction' by Donald Maas which had some fanatastic techqniues for getting the reader hooked to the character. I don't know if I'm yielding the advice well myselfbut it was eye opening for me.

(I didn't read other comments, so may be repeating.)
First off, not every reader is your reader, kwim? People have different tastes. Maybe you like raisins, I think they are equivalent to goat droppings. The same is true for fiction. We can often get something out of having someone who isn't "our" reader beta our stories--I find writers/readers of different genres will pick up on different things, have different strengths, but that isn't going to make it to their taste.

I can't tell you whether or not your character is likable--and honestly, I'm a fan of unlikable characters, but I do need compelling. Compelling = interesting.

I definitely can't tell you whether or not you have too much/not enough going on in your story, but it does make me wonder if your MC's inner life and goals are rich. Sometimes I've read stories that are heavy on action, but they feel more like a laundry list of plot points than a gripping story.

Literary does not necessarily mean flowery. It can, but not always. I love literary fiction. Beautiful, meaningful, heavy on character development and themes, but Alice Munro is literary. Not flowery. Toni Morrison is literary, not flowery. Ursula K Le Guin is both literary and "genre," as is Margaret Atwood. Stephen King is not someone I think of as literary, but I do think he's a brilliant freaking writer. Regardless, you answered your own question when you said you disliked the book your reader used as a measuring stick. Your voice as a writer should be yours. Does it change, develop, deepen as you write more? Yup. But still yours, not Author X because you think this is what you should sound like.