Best way to avoid male and female stereotypes

MapleTree889 · Jun 4, 2018

So being that my MC had suffered a dark past as a child, soldier and such, down the line in the story he would eventually meet a female assassin sent to target him but it ultimately fails cause he was able to stop her but then she develops an interest in the MC after she learns from the MC how badly she was affected and trained into a brainwashed killer and how the world does not care about people like her and being a relentless brainwashed killer is like being a tool for that organization as the MC had similar experience in life to her from what he went through. She learns this and at the same time the MC makes her realize what is wrong and right and that he's not the one she should be after and she helps the MC realize it's ok to feel feelings of relationships towards someone else do to how he was badly brainwashed.

Since both of them would be working to help eachothers difficulties and traumas they've been through, would this still come off as stereotyping a male and females prospective?

Brightdreamer · Jun 4, 2018

The best way to avoid stereotypes, IMHO, is to write characters, not stereotypes.

Create solid, well-rounded characters who do (or don't do) things because of who they are, not what they are. It helps to question your first impulses, which can sometimes be based on unconscious bias - do I want the woman to be the healer because "women heal men", or because Lady Linda is someone who would do that, at least for Man Max? How can I create a character who rises above the cliche?

Again, JMHO...

Harlequin · Jun 4, 2018

if you're referring to my comment on the thread that got locked, I'm wary of the woman-saving-damaged-guy trope not because it makes characters inherently stereotyped, but because it feeds into (imo) a problematic narrative.

A cross between the Epiphany Therapy and the Love Redeems tropes, I guess.

And yes, everything is a trope or cliche, and yes you can pull off everything well, but as a general rule of thumb, love doesn't fix things. Trying to "fix" someone you're romantically involved with is frequently a terrible idea, especially for women. Plenty of DV stories on the news if you want to sift some examples.

Maybe just me but I find this to be a damaging culture myth. It puts a burden of social expectation that women (or other romantic partners of any gender) have the capacity to heal someone if they care enough. I can't tell you how many guys I've met who have this attitude--that if only someone cares enough, or will love them enough, or put in enough work, all their deep seated issues will evaporate.

In reality, most people get worse before they get better. it's something you'll see wiht actual therapeutic clients who are in counselling; as issues start to be explored, stuff that's been walled up or pressed down comes tumbling out into a horrible mess. It can take a long time before those issues are sifted through, and then finally having healing start.

Things that can possibly avoid problems in hte narrative (all my own opinion, I'm no one);

scope of the novel. Across the space of many years, I think a dedicated friend or lover could do a world of good for someone who is suffering.
scope of the healing process; in a short space of time you might get someone to start opening up, or start picking at old wounds , but miles of improvement and a reversal of behaviour is... not very realistic
sources of healing other than the romantic interest (so, mentor characters, friends, relatives, etc; other people 'pitching in' so that the burden of healing doesn't fall to a single love interest).

But as I said before, those are just my personal opinions from consuming a variety of media. I'm no expert or authority on anything.

MapleTree889 · Jun 4, 2018

Brightdreamer said:
The best way to avoid stereotypes, IMHO, is to write characters, not stereotypes.

Create solid, well-rounded characters who do (or don't do) things because of who they are, not what they are. It helps to question your first impulses, which can sometimes be based on unconscious bias - do I want the woman to be the healer because "women heal men", or because Lady Linda is someone who would do that, at least for Man Max? How can I create a character who rises above the cliche?

Again, JMHO...

Well would it be different considering they would both be healers for eachother from both their traumatic experiences? I could easily have the female replaced as a male hunter after the MC and the male hunter learns what was wrong from right by the MC, which the MC had to learn himself too before and that male hunter would help in the MC opening up more about his past. Only difference is the male hunter would be female and sometimes it's natural for the opposite sex to fall interested in one another right? So if the female shows interest in the MC later on, which takes a while for the MC to adjust to cause he was trained and brainwashed a certain way himself (there would be reasons why he's never been shown any interests in women or had that opportunity from his lifestyle)

MapleTree889 · Jun 4, 2018

Harlequin said:
if you're referring to my comment on the thread that got locked, I'm wary of the woman-saving-damaged-guy trope not because it makes characters inherently stereotyped, but because it feeds into (imo) a problematic narrative.

A cross between the Epiphany Therapy and the Love Redeems tropes, I guess.

And yes, everything is a trope or cliche, and yes you can pull off everything well, but as a general rule of thumb, love doesn't fix things. Trying to "fix" someone you're romantically involved with is frequently a terrible idea, especially for women. Plenty of DV stories on the news if you want to sift some examples.

Maybe just me but I find this to be a damaging culture myth. It puts a burden of social expectation that women (or other romantic partners of any gender) have the capacity to heal someone if they care enough. I can't tell you how many guys I've met who have this attitude--that if only someone cares enough, or will love them enough, or put in enough work, all their deep seated issues will evaporate.

In reality, most people get worse before they get better. it's something you'll see wiht actual therapeutic clients who are in counselling; as issues start to be explored, stuff that's been walled up or pressed down comes tumbling out into a horrible mess. It can take a long time before those issues are sifted through, and then finally having healing start.

Things that can possibly avoid problems in hte narrative (all my own opinion, I'm no one);

scope of the novel. Across the space of many years, I think a dedicated friend or lover could do a world of good for someone who is suffering.

scope of the healing process; in a short space of time you might get someone to start opening up, or start picking at old wounds , but miles of improvement and a reversal of behaviour is... not very realistic

sources of healing other than the romantic interest (so, mentor characters, friends, relatives, etc; other people 'pitching in' so that the burden of healing doesn't fall to a single love interest).

But as I said before, those are just my personal opinions from consuming a variety of media. I'm no expert or authority on anything.

I understand that, those are some good points. And no he would not just open up to her and fall in love and be all healed up from her compassion towards him. It may take a long time if ever for him to heal so she may only be able to help a little, enough to have him not fully consumed from his horrible past.

At the same time he would be doing things to heal her as they would of both been through lot's of trauma and abuse, although not the same they begin to help eachother out and relate to supporting eachothers problems without even fully realizing it. If both of them help heal eachother is it still fall into the stereotype of woman healing damaged guy?

What are some good examples from movies and media that show this stereotype?

veinglory · Jun 4, 2018

You could always just randomly flip the genders of 45% of your characters and genderqueer another 5%.

MapleTree889 · Jun 4, 2018

veinglory said:
You could always just randomly flip the genders of 45% of your characters and genderqueer another 5%.

You mean interchanging genders for each characters? Is this the only way I can avoid stereotyping?

AW Admin · Jun 4, 2018

Start writing your characters. Make them as real to us as they are real to you.

Harlequin · Jun 4, 2018

It's all in execution. I know that sounds trite but it's true.

A cliche is usually just a good idea done lazily.

MapleTree889 · Jun 4, 2018

AW Admin said:
Start writing your characters. Make them as real to us as they are real to you.

You're right. What I could do is write them as just characters and maybe they gain interest of eachother by being skilled at different things thst help eachother like many of us do daily.

BethS · Jun 4, 2018

MapleTree889 said:
Since both of them would be working to help eachothers difficulties and traumas they've been through, would this still come off as stereotyping a male and females prospective?

I don't see how it would. Nothing wrong with two damaged people finding ways to help each other. I think what Harlequin is referring to is when you have someone who believes that loving someone is enough to fix their problems. Or more actively, when loving someone becomes a mission to fix them.

Change must come from within. Many factors can influence it, but no one can change someone else if that person doesn't want to change. I think that's the damaging trope Harlequin was referring to. But it doesn't sound like that's what you're doing, or planning to do.

IMO, you need to worry less and write more.

veinglory · Jun 5, 2018

MapleTree889 said:
You mean interchanging genders for each characters? Is this the only way I can avoid stereotyping?

I mean swapping the gender for a random 50% of the characters. Its not the only way to avoid stereotyping but its certainly one way.

MapleTree889 · Jun 5, 2018

BethS said:
I don't see how it would. Nothing wrong with two damaged people finding ways to help each other. I think what Harlequin is referring to is when you have someone who believes that loving someone is enough to fix their problems. Or more actively, when loving someone becomes a mission to fix them.

Change must come from within. Many factors can influence it, but no one can change someone else if that person doesn't want to change. I think that's the damaging trope Harlequin was referring to. But it doesn't sound like that's what you're doing, or planning to do.

IMO, you need to worry less and write more.

You're right and yes Harlequin makes a very good point and since it's not going to be about her trying to use love to change the MC, it shouldn't be a problem.

However readers might find this in disbelief if the female assassin is tricked by the villain to kill the MC cause she's told the MC killed her family (when it was really the villain himself) or that she is the actual daughter of the villain and she's not aware of it yet but told to follow orders to kill MC. Is either believable?

BenPanced · Jun 5, 2018

MapleTree889 said:
You're right and yes Harlequin makes a very good point and since it's not going to be about her trying to use love to change the MC, it shouldn't be a problem.

However readers might find this in disbelief if the female assassin is tricked by the villain to kill the MC cause she's told the MC killed her family (when it was really the villain himself) or that she is the actual daughter of the villain and she's not aware of it yet but told to follow orders to kill MC. Is either believable?

MapleTree889 said:
You're right. What I could do is write them ~~as just characters and maybe they gain interest of eachother by being skilled at different things thst help eachother like many of us do daily.~~

Have you tried...y'know...writing? Actually sitting down, BICFOK, and writing? It's the only way you'll know if it works or not. Stop questioning what the readers are going to question and find believable. Sit down. Write. Go. NOW.

MapleTree889 · Jun 5, 2018

BenPanced said:
Have you tried...y'know...writing? Actually sitting down, BICFOK, and writing? It's the only way you'll know if it works or not. Stop questioning what the readers are going to question and find believable. Sit down. Write. Go. NOW.

I did start! I just haven'tfinished much cause I keep getting stuck. I'm sorry

I'm trying my best to do this right. I'll finish up the first two chapters asap as I can put up for critique.

Which forum do I go on to post my chapters for critique? Thank you.

Layla Nahar · Jun 5, 2018

Maybe someone has made this point but - one way is to write *people* as opposed to Men or Women.

BenPanced · Jun 5, 2018

MapleTree889 said:
I did start! I just haven'tfinished much cause I keep getting stuck. I'm sorry I'm trying my best to do this right. I'll finish up the first two chapters asap as I can put up for critique.

Which forum do I go on to post my chapters for critique? Thank you.

You'll want to go to Share Your Work to the appropriate genre (password: vista). After you reach 50 posts, you can begin to post there.

We all get hung up on something when we're working. Sometimes it's helpful to come over here and piece through things; sometimes it starts to look like procrastination. We are here to help but sometimes you have to muddle through these things alone. I see a lot of helpful advice in many of the replies in the threads you've started here. Wade through them some more and give yourself the opportunity to sit down, write, and just let the words come. Finish a piece and let it age a bit; you might find you've settled the issue with some help or you might have done it on your own. Just give it a shot.

BethS · Jun 5, 2018

MapleTree889 said:
However readers might find this in disbelief if the female assassin is tricked by the villain to kill the MC cause she's told the MC killed her family (when it was really the villain himself) or that she is the actual daughter of the villain and she's not aware of it yet but told to follow orders to kill MC. Is either believable?

It's your job to make it believable. Credibility is not in the idea itself; it's in the execution.

MapleTree889 · Jun 6, 2018

Layla Nahar said:
Maybe someone has made this point but - one way is to write *people* as opposed to Men or Women.

Which is exactly what I plan on doing, thanks.

MapleTree889 · Jun 6, 2018

@ BenPanced @BethS You're right, I'm just worried this story is going to be one big fail, and I've worked so hard and long on this story that I really don't want it to go downhill

Ari Meermans · Jun 6, 2018

MapleTree889 said:
@ BenPanced @BethS You're right, I'm just worried this story is going to be one big fail, and I've worked so hard and long on this story that I really don't want it to go downhill

Everyone who has ever put pen to paper or pixel to screen with serious intent has felt the same way. All you can do is your best.

We're all here to help but we can't do it for you. Just. do. your. best.

AW Admin · Jun 6, 2018

MapleTree889 said:
@ BenPanced @BethS You're right, I'm just worried this story is going to be one big fail, and I've worked so hard and long on this story that I really don't want it to go downhill

You get free, unlimited do-overs.

Old Hack · Jun 6, 2018

MapleTree889 said:
Which forum do I go on to post my chapters for critique? Thank you.

Don't post any work for critique yet. Write your chapters, get the words down; but before asking us to help you improve them, spend a few weeks giving critiques to others. Tell other people what works and what doesn't. I know it sounds wrong, but giving critiques is the single quickest way I know to improve your own writing--and it means that when you do put your own work up, you'll have made a few critiquing friends, who are likely to be keen to help you.

DanielSTJ · Jun 10, 2018

I agree with what others have said here.

Write your characters out and flesh them to the utmost of your ability. That is how you remain true to them and, in turn, they will reveal themselves to be true to you.

Additionally, you need to write. You are procrastinating and worrying FAR too much about things that do not concern you. These are not things that should be discussed, or even really mentioned, before you have a full first draft. Then, you can go about tinkering and meddling to your heart's content. Until then, don't dilly-dally and twiddle your thumbs: be proactive and write.

Just my two cents!

WriteMinded · Jun 12, 2018

I never think about or worry about stereotypes. I just write what I want to write. I guess I pant my characters.

Best way to avoid male and female stereotypes

MapleTree889

Brightdreamer

Just Another Lazy Perfectionist

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!

MapleTree889

MapleTree889

veinglory

volitare nequeo

MapleTree889

AW Admin

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!

MapleTree889

BethS

veinglory

volitare nequeo

MapleTree889

BenPanced

THE BLUEBERRY QUEEN OF HADES (he/him)

MapleTree889

Layla Nahar

Seashell Seller

BenPanced

THE BLUEBERRY QUEEN OF HADES (he/him)

BethS

MapleTree889

MapleTree889

Ari Meermans

MacAllister's Official Minion & Greeter

AW Admin

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

DanielSTJ

The Wandering Bard

WriteMinded

Derailed