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Writing out of order

DancingMaenid

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I may have bitten off more than I can chew....

I used to be a very linear writer--I had to write in order or it just didn't work. Well, getting a full-time job forced me to be more proactive about fitting in writing, and I discovered that I can get a lot done writing in Google Docs in my phone on my lunch breaks. More so than trying to write when I get home. But it's hard for me to work on an entire manuscript on my phone, so I was writing a little bit here an there of whatever scene I had in mind. Mostly in chronological order but not always.

Now I have a bunch of half-finished scenes that need to be fleshed-out and formed into a whole. About 20,000 words worth. I have a master document in Word that I'm copying and pasting into as needed, but it's kind of overwhelming. I don't know if I should just copy everything over and try to fill in the blanks or what. I think where I'm struggling is 1) remembering what I've already written and 2) figuring out how to feed the beginning (which I'm working on now) into the next chronological scene. (The last two thirds of the story are a little more coherent at the moment. I was having some difficulty establishing the confluct in the first act, and I don't know how to fix this.)

Any advice on organizing everything and piecing it together? I know that some writing software let's you rearrange scenes, and that's something I'd be open to considering in the future (if I could copy/and paste stuff in that I'd written in other programs, due to the phone writing), but I'm going to try sticking with Word for now as I'm hoping to finish my draft in the coming weeks.

I would love to know what strategies people have!
 

Lakey

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You can try the ordering-and-rearranging-scenes thing in Word - you don't need other software for that.

My manuscript is not one giant Word file - it's one file per scene. Each file is named with the scene number and a brief description of what happens in the scene - like 28_eddie_gets_sick.doc or whatever. When I first started working on the novel I had something similar to what you had - some scenes that went together and others that would come in later after some more connective tissue to get from point to point. I gave those files names like 99_orangutan.doc - the 99 told me that they were not yet part of the existing sequence.

As I worked on the novel I stopped from time to time (every few months, but I've been working on this for almost two years) to assess the structure of what I had, make a new scene-by-scene outline to identify the scenes I had and the ones I still needed to write, and renumbered the files as needed. (I save snapshots of all these files from time to time as well, so I can always go back to previous versions if I need to for some reason.)

When I'm finished with what I've been calling my zeroeth draft (I have between 4-6 scenes left to get there), I will go over the outline again, clump scenes into chapters as needed, create a new set of files for those chapters labeled in a similar way, and do my revisions.

Eventually I suppose I'll have to knit all these files together in one manuscript file, but for now it's much easier to manage separate files for each scene.
 

Harlequin

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I always write out of order and do find it easier to use a file organiser.

Ywriter is very simple and free. It keeps everything organised in scenes with wordcounts on the size. Takes about five minutes to get used to.

Only issue is the formatting on it isn't so great but I wrote an entire novel with ywriter and converted ti to Word afterwards so :)
 

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A lot of people recommend Scrivener, though I've heard some say it has a steep learning curve.

I don't know if you'd find this useful, but I know someone who writes whole, huge novels out of order. This comes to her naturally; it's just the way her brain is wired. But one of things she's mentioned is that when she's starting work on a new novel, she digs wherever the ground is soft, so the pieces she writes will be scattered around, disconnected. She keeps doing this until scenes grow larger and then begin to "stick together," forming blocks of story. The larger pieces (collections of scenes) eventually become chunks, and she can start to see what shape the story is going to be (she sees her novels in geometric shapes). Once she knows what the shape is, she can start filling all the empty spaces and eventually she'll have a complete novel.

She keeps herself organized by having a consistent file naming system, with a separate file for each scene starting out, and an index that lists all files in progress so she can find one quickly. I don't think she puts anything together in a master file until near the end.

Anyway, I only mention this in case it would be helpful for you to try letting the scenes grow and stick together in their own way rather than trying to slot everything into a master file.
 
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AW Admin

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I would love to know what strategies people have!

One thing to try is using Outline View in MS Word; you can drag and drop sections fairly easily that way.

Another thing to try is inserting page breaks between "scenes" or fragments, printing them out, and then putting them in some semblance of order that you can then duplicate in the file.

WORK ON A COPY


Scrivener may work for you; it is designed to let you write out of order and shift things around, but it's not something everyone likes.

You can download a free 30 day trial of Scrivener.

You might also find the free Microsoft One Note makes things easier to re-order; I'd suggest copying-and-pasting from the MS Word document, and changing the color or bolding the text you copied in your copy of the the MS Word file, so you'll know you've put it somewhere already.
 

DancingMaenid

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Thanks for the tips (and software recommendations)! I never thought of having different files per scene as something that would appeal to me, but I think taking a loose definition of "scene" and breaking things up by beats in my outline might be helpful. One of my frustrations is that in some instances I have multiple snippets dealing with the same part of the story, and I'm not sure yet if they're all going to wind up in the same scene, what I'll keep, etc. And I worry about not having all those snippets in the same place and "losing" something that I might want to keep. So rounding up all the "Bob and Jim argue over money" snippets into one file, for example, might be a good start. And then, maybe going forward, I'll try the "file per scene" idea to see if it works for me.

I don't know if you'd find this useful, but I know someone who writes whole, huge novels out of order. This comes to her naturally; it's just the way her brain is wired. But one of things she's mentioned is that when she's starting work on a new novel, she digs wherever the ground is soft, so the pieces she writes will be scattered around, disconnected. She keeps doing this until scenes grow larger and then begin to "stick together," forming blocks of story. The larger pieces (collections of scenes) eventually become chunks, and she can start to see what shape the story is going to be (she sees her novels in geometric shapes). Once she knows what the shape is, she can start filling all the empty spaces and eventually she'll have a complete novel.

She keeps herself organized by having a consistent file naming system, with a separate file for each scene starting out, and an index that lists all files in progress so she can find one quickly. I don't think she puts anything together in a master file until near the end.

Anyway, I only mention this in case it would be helpful for you to try letting the scenes grow and stick together in their own way rather than trying to slot everything into a master file.

That is something to think about, thanks. I'm glad you brought it up, because I have sort of thought about that ('What if I just start expanding some of these scenes?'), but I think I've been psyching myself out trying to go from a very non-linear process to a more linear one. I went back to the beginning because I felt like I should have a solid opening, but I feel like this approach has slowed my progress, especially since I cut back on my lunchtime writing because I was trying to focus on starting to write in order. So maybe right now I'll focus on getting the snippets organized so that everything related is together and start looking at piecing those together/expanding them. It has to be done regardless.
 

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:) Hi. This is exactly what I'm dealing with, too, with my WIP.

I just thought I'd offer support by letting you know you're not the only one who's currently struggling with this. At first, I just kept my outline and written scenes on only one document. In the beginning, I liked that I was able to easily reread my outline, while writing a few, short scenes, but it was becoming too large, so I separated most of my outline from my written scenes.

Have you outlined your WIP completely? Do you think that'd help you? I thought I'd attempt to write my WIP more linear, one chapter at a time. Perhaps that'd help you, too.
 

DancingMaenid

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Small update: I've more or less separated the scenes into different files. It's still not as organized as I'd ideally like, but it's a start! I definitely wish I'd kept things a little more organized as I went along, because I know I'm missing a few small snippets (but nothing that I can't redo). But I didn't really plan to start writing like this. But I have to say, I do want to make this technique work. I tend to mull over my ideas a lot and work out the plot before I start writing, but I found that doing it this way allowed me to get more of my ideas down while they were still fresh without a lot of pressure to have a complete story.

Now I just have to start fleshing out those scenes more. *crosses fingers*

I'm going to look into yWriter. I see they have an Android version--has anyone tried that? I'm wondering if that would work on my Android tablet or phone.

:) Hi. This is exactly what I'm dealing with, too, with my WIP.

I just thought I'd offer support by letting you know you're not the only one who's currently struggling with this. At first, I just kept my outline and written scenes on only one document. In the beginning, I liked that I was able to easily reread my outline, while writing a few, short scenes, but it was becoming too large, so I separated most of my outline from my written scenes.

Have you outlined your WIP completely? Do you think that'd help you? I thought I'd attempt to write my WIP more linear, one chapter at a time. Perhaps that'd help you, too.

Thanks! I hope you figure out a good strategy for your WIP.

I tried to switch to a more linear approach now that I have some scenes banked, but I found I was still struggling a bit. So I think I'm going to try to come back to the beginning later.

With regards to outlining, not really. But I kind of started this project without intending to (it was just a fun thing to play around with when I had downtime). It's also fairly short (novella-length) and not very complicated, plot-wise. So I had an idea of where it was going pretty quickly. I think I would want to gain more confidence with this approach before tackling more projects. But I do like it.
 

Aggy B.

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I use Scrivener for long projects because it does make it very easy to reorganize. (As pointed out above the 30 day trial is free and it's not consecutive days - so if you poke around it in for a day, then are away for a week before coming back you still have 29 days left on the trial.) I used to write my chapters in individual files and eventually it reached a point where it was very clunky to use. (But I also write a lot in short periods of time so more steady writers might not have the issues I did.)

You could try the index card method for figuring out what you've got so far and getting it more or less organized. (Take a stack of index cards and write a 1-2 sentence description of each scene you have worked on so far. Then lay them out, put them in the order you think you want them, add cards with more scene descriptions of things you *haven't* written yet, organizing things as you go. Once you have a fairly solid outline on the cards you can number them so you don't lose your work if you drop the stack. You can mark the scenes you've already worked on with a highlighter stripe or use different colored cards to indicate chapters/scenes already in-progress vs the ones you have in mind but haven't started yet, if you feel like getting detailed about it. [Scrivener, by the way, has a function that allows you to do something similar in the program which is why some folks really dig it. I learned to do it by hand while in film school and generally prefer that, but it's a nice organizing/outlining tool whether in digital or tactile format.])

You can also, as you organize your snippets, make a master document where you paste everything in and then just type in notes between the existing pieces. As you go, just delete the notes once you write the corresponding scenes.

I tend to write longer stuff out of order these days, but there is a method to it. I usually work on 1) scenes I already have in mind and 2) scenes that give me the key points of the plot. Then I fill in the gaps as necessary. I don't always write all the key scenes first. Depending on the story I'll work on the first third of the book first or the beginning and then the lead-up to the climax at the end, but I always have some sort of goal or ending point in mind for whichever section I'm working on. It could be as detailed as "The protag finally reaches the house with the object in it and solves three puzzles to get the object so they can stop the villain from doing their villainous thing." Or as vague as "These two characters need to wind up in different places so I need to work on making that happen."

Obviously, YMMV in regard to how well any of these things work for you. The important thing to remember is that if it's working, then don't worry about needing to do something different. And if it stops working, then don't stress about continuing to do exactly what you were doing - adapt new habits as you need them.
 

SKara

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I think where I'm struggling is 1) remembering what I've already written and 2) figuring out how to feed the beginning (which I'm working on now) into the next chronological scene.

I used to be happy with the linear approach as well, but I recently wrote an entire manuscript out of order. I started the whole thing in one MS Word file using headings to navigate between scenes, chapters, etc. It works like an outline and you can easily move the headings around; I named and numbered the scenes and chapters, so basically I had a general map for refreshing my memory.

I had an idea of the scenes that would go early on, in the middle, at the end, etc. - so I divided the MS in three parts and wrote the scenes/chapters at random as I came up with them, then put them in the section where they belonged, moving them around when required. There was a general sense of "this scene goes before this one" which was helpful and gave a direction to the story (which was essentially a huge mess).

As for the missing pieces and not knowing how one scene leads to the next - I ignored these things during the first draft when I was just coming up with random scenes and jotting them down. The second time around I did a lot of re-arranging and filled in the gaps. So I'd say don't worry about how the scenes will connect - just know that they will.

Which reminds me of this memorable quote by Steve Jobs:

“You can't connect the dots looking forward; you can only connect them looking backwards. So you have to trust that the dots will somehow connect in your future."
 
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endford

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I tried Scrivener, too, but then got really anxious about messing something up without noticing as I couldn't see changes from previous versions easily. And I also struggled with remembering what I've done and just seeing an overview. I'd have found being able to comment everywhere (like short summaries, etc.) really helpful. I'm a programmer by day, so I ended up using the tools I used for coding (simple text files), but then you miss the nice interface.

Anyway, I've been thinking about this and thought it'd be great to have a web-based editor for creative projects that can help to write bits and connect them together. And it'd work on a tablet or phone, too, when you're on the move. Could you let me know if it'd be something of interest as then I can spend more on the idea? (I have a little brochure for the idea at http://www.skytypewriter.com/ if you'd like to take a look.)
 

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I second AW Admin's advice. I use Word 2010, and Outline View is awesome. For me, I have two series that takes place in the same setting and time (with different MCs in each group). I have times try-fail cycles interact (between MC groups). Each will be a potential series. I like to outline coinciding books in one outline. In one Outline View document, I have series one and series two, book one layouts only. Book titles with target word and page counts. Chapter titles with target word and page counts. I have scenes plotted as well as entries for new character additions and character deaths. Word 2010 goes 9 levels deep (in an outline), and I use all nine for my work.

One problem with it is saving it to PDF (or an HTML file) loses its structure. Saving as an rtf files seems to work, when reopened in Word, but format is lost in Wordpad.
 

Enlightened

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Harlequin: I'm about to leave on vacation, and won't be back for several days. I will have to read your reply then, if you reply. Does Scrivener allow users to export outline layout to other formats (e.g. PDF, HTML, other)? Thanks.
 

Harlequin

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Yes, and also ebooks. It will also convert your file to MS format, ready to send to agents/editors :)

Definitely books can be done in Word. But the nice features are nice and if your formatting is screwing up in other programs, scrivener might help. It has a free trial.
 

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Harlequin: TY. I'll have to give it a try when I get back next week. It sounds great.
 

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I absolutely adore Scrivener; I've used it since before it was released.

But it's crucial to try it for thirty days before you buy. And watch some of the Literature and Latte (the developer)'s videos on their Web site. Scrivener is a giant toolbox; not everyone needs all the tools or will use them the same way.

ETA: there's an AW affiliate link to Scrivener at the bottom of the forums; AW gets a little of the price if you purchase Scrivener. We won't know who purchased, and it doesn't cost you any extra, and you're buying it from the developer as you would ordinarily.
 
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Lawless

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Any advice on organizing everything and piecing it together? I know that some writing software let's you rearrange scenes

I don't know about Google Docs, but in Word you can have a document map. So you see the text in the main window and the (provisional) scene headlines in the left pane. What I do is when there is anything in a scene that needs work, I put an asterisk before the scene headline. When the scene is ready, I delete the asterisk. So when I look at the document map, I can quickly see which scenes are unfinished.

There is no problem rearranging scenes in Word. Just cut some text and paste it where you want it to be.
 

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I am a big fan of Scrivener.

When I was trying to wrangle text in MS Word to organise my work, I would come unstuck, especially with rewrites. I found visualising the whole story a can't-see-the-wood-for-the-trees thing. Scrivener makes that a doddle.

As someone mentioned upthread you can check it out for a 30 day trial to see if it suits you. My suggestion, however, would be that you try out a barebones Scrivener set up with a blank template to start off with - also provides fewer distractions. That gives you draft, research and trash folders. The thing I love about Scrivener is that if I decide I need to add a new scene to an early chapter, then that is an easy drag an drop fix. Reordering scenes? Again easy. (There is a ton of stuff on the Literature and Latte website, explaining how the App works.)
 

Aggy B.

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There is no problem rearranging scenes in Word. Just cut some text and paste it where you want it to be.

Still not as simple as Scrivener where you click on the scene or chapter in the index and simply move it where you want it to go. No copy, no scrolling, no pasting.

(I do use Word, or rather LibreOffice, when I make revisions for editors or my agent because they like to use the track changes function to quickly see where and what I've changed. But there's a lot about Scrivener that I really prefer for drafting and organizing longer projects. Things I wasn't able to do as easily in Word. [When I wrote my chapters in individual files, I used a Master Doc to compile them, but it tended to glitch and not load current/saved versions of chapters even after reinserting the file names. It was... oh, a decade ago, I'd say, but I've not bothered to try it again since Scrivener makes it so much easier.])

But, it's just a tool. And some folks will find other tools work better for them than the one that works well for me. (I know some folks who prefer Scrivener for revisions rather than first drafts because the corkboard layout helps them move and plan and color code all the things they still need to work on, while I prefer it for any draft that requires a lot of compiling work, and use LibreOffice for more detailed polishing work once I have everything else in place.)
 

MGraybosch

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I do my drafting in plain text, so it's easy for me to keep everything in one file and jump around. But I don't use a phone to write on my lunch breaks. Instead, I've got a secondhand laptop that I carry around for this purpose.
 

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Outlining with a program like Storybook or Ywriter can be helpful at this stage. I fell into a similar issue but I have no self control so when I write out of order I just write the same few scenes over and over again.
 

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I have written out of order before: The Cut of the Clothes was done that way. I think it can be done successfully provided that you already have a clear understanding of the plotline when you begin (that is, you've already mapped out where the story will go.) That way you don't just write a bunch of random stuff that won't fit together. You also have to be up for rereading the story many times in order to decide where the pieces will best fit, and you may have to prepare for tossing a few sequences if they won't work out.

Gone with the Wind was a famous example of a story written out of order; but the last scene was the first one written (so the author definitely knew where the story was headed) and she spent years working on it, doubtless doing plenty of editing to make everything fit together.
 

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My manuscript is not one giant Word file - it's one file per scene.

GAAAAAH!!! I tried this exactly once, and it was an atrocious exercise in wasted time.

Eventually I suppose I'll have to knit all these files together in one manuscript file.

Yes, you certainly will, and you will likely hate it with Satan's own passion.

I now keep all things, short or long, in single files, with embedded flags for chapter breaks or individual scenes I need to work on, and getting to any of those takes about two seconds with the search function.

caw
 

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Oh boy I definitely have to fit writing in to my full time job schedule, and I feel this on another level. Usually what I do is, I find some time to sit down, and finish the half-finished scenes. Once that's done, I "fill in" extra scenes to connect the fully-flushed scenes. After that, I go through a whooole lot of editing. Was the main character 28 or 21? Was his father a single parent, or did his mom run out on them? Make all the small details fit together. That's when all the details really come together, and after that you'll have a whole lot more words. Good luck!