Ditto.
Not interested in, or influenced by, any of that stuff about the author. I'm either looking for a specific book or for something that catches my eye - be it the cover, blurb, or opening pages - that's all.
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Basic Writing questions is not a crit forum. All crits belong in Share Your Work
Byline: Your thoughts on using initials or not
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Ditto.
Not interested in, or influenced by, any of that stuff about the author. I'm either looking for a specific book or for something that catches my eye - be it the cover, blurb, or opening pages - that's all.
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See, you're all telling me you "don't care" about the author's gender, but all of these are marketing elements that are often influenced by the author's gender - either deliberately, or because the marketing and publicity people (and often the author themselves) are dealing with their own implicit biases. No published book is ever produced in an environment of perfect neutrality.
And btw, I didn't write the blurbs for my books (well, I kinda did for the third one, because it was clear the person who had written the blurb hadn't actually read the book, and it's a rough one to describe even when you actually know the story). So that's down to marketing as well.
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I have never identified an author by the writing of the blurb or the cover unless they have gone over-the-top in trying to appeal to a specific type of reader (hence why romance covers normally look different than fantasy although Para blurs that line). I've identified the genre but honestly, the difference of art styles between A Baroque Tale and Another Fine Myth vs. the cover to The Dark Company or Those Who Hunt By Night didn't tell me who wrote the book, only that the former two were going to be humorous takes on the Fantasy genre and the later two were going to be definitely dark and moody.
You may see these things in covers and blurbs and I'm not going to tell you you don't -- but do not presume to tell me what I see or do not see in the same.
I don't give a DAMN who writes a book, I only care if it's well-written.
You may see these things in covers and blurbs and I'm not going to tell you you don't -- but do not presume to tell me what I see or do not see in the same.
I don't give a DAMN who writes a book, I only care if it's well-written.
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I am with Liz on this one.
Unfortunately, people are littered with subconscious biases. Part of being human. There are many many psych experiments which prove even well-meaning people act on prejudice - racial, sexual, religious etc.
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Apologies, Richard; I do believe you, and it's not my intent to insult you.
What I'm saying is that a marketing department can visually "code" a book in a way that will say to a reader "this is romance" or "this is hard SF" or "this is fantasy with elves" or "this is literary." If you're looking for a book of Type X, your eyes are going to skip right over a book that has a Type Y cover, before you even look at the author's name. It's not about a specific book buyer being sexist; it's about cultural norms, and how marketing works to tap into those norms based on who they think their audience is.
You are misunderstanding me completely. A pink cover with flowers on it doesn't necessarily say much about the author's gender, but it obviously does say a lot about the book's GENRE, TARGET AUDIENCE and MOOD.
Does the pistol on your avatar make us assume you're male? I don't think so.
My comment was meant to hint that there are ways how a female writer can make her book appealing to male readers if that's what she wants. If all female authors would begin to hide their first names, it would be kind of silly.
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I think I see what you're driving at here, lizmonster. The marketing folk decide what I see in the first place, regardless of how freely I think I interpret what I see.
Can't help wondering what the result or impact would have been on attitudes if Harry Potter had been seen from the outset to be written by one Joanne K Rowling.....
Can't help wondering what the result or impact would have been on attitudes if Harry Potter had been seen from the outset to be written by one Joanne K Rowling.....
The K isn't a part of her name (apologies if you know that already!) The publisher recommending she put it in because two initials (J K ) looks better than one to readers (J Rowling). More specifically:
"Rowling's full name is "Joanne Rowling", not, as is often assumed, "Joanne Kathleen Rowling". Before publishing her first volume, Bloomsbury feared that the target group of young boys might be reluctant to buy books written by a female author. They requested that Rowling use two initials, rather than reveal her first name. As she had no middle name, she chose K from her grandmother's name Kathleen, as the second initial of her pseudonym. "
Wiki citation: "Jo Rowling Interview on Oprah". The Oprah Winfrey Show. 2010-10-01. Event occurs at 1:50. Archived from the original on 19 December 2011. Retrieved 28 January 2012.
Re some of the previous posts above (not Bufty specifically): People absorb a lot of subconscious information. There are loads and loads and LOADS of studies on this. Believing that we are fully aware of everything we process is unscientific and wholly irrational. A vast majority of people believe that they are not affected (or not affected very much) by marketing,and generally speaking they are shown to be wrong.
But the marketing industry are probably happy for that myth to continue existing since it makes their work so much easier.
"Rowling's full name is "Joanne Rowling", not, as is often assumed, "Joanne Kathleen Rowling". Before publishing her first volume, Bloomsbury feared that the target group of young boys might be reluctant to buy books written by a female author. They requested that Rowling use two initials, rather than reveal her first name. As she had no middle name, she chose K from her grandmother's name Kathleen, as the second initial of her pseudonym. "
Wiki citation: "Jo Rowling Interview on Oprah". The Oprah Winfrey Show. 2010-10-01. Event occurs at 1:50. Archived from the original on 19 December 2011. Retrieved 28 January 2012.
Re some of the previous posts above (not Bufty specifically): People absorb a lot of subconscious information. There are loads and loads and LOADS of studies on this. Believing that we are fully aware of everything we process is unscientific and wholly irrational. A vast majority of people believe that they are not affected (or not affected very much) by marketing,and generally speaking they are shown to be wrong.
But the marketing industry are probably happy for that myth to continue existing since it makes their work so much easier.
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As I understand it, I don't think Richard was saying he's free of subconscious bias. I think he was just saying in regard to the thread topic, he doesn't care about the name on the book. Maybe he winds up with a shelf full of dudes thanks to his taste in covers and what marketing says a "male" cover is, but I think his point was that his book selection has nothing to do with the author's name.
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I'd like to remind people that when we're talking about "guys buying/not buying certain books" we are talking about statistics, not individuals. (I'd be curious to know where those statistics come from, BTW.) If you are not a member of that statistical group, good for you. It doesn't change the statistic existing. "The plural of 'Anecdote' is not 'Data'", so the saying goes.
Some misconceptions here.
One, the author almost never has any control over the cover design unless they're self-published (at most they can make suggestions, which are more likely than not to be ignored). That's all on the publisher.
Two, the only books you're likely to find with that extremely "girly" of a cover style are childrens/middle grade/maybe some YA targeted at girls and a few other outliers. You almost definitely won't find it in the genre I'm writing for (SF&F). What you will occasionally find is...ahem...chainmail bikinis and such. But mostly you'll find cover art that isn't explicitly gender coded one way or another (which is not to say they don't contain any coding, but hardly any that announces itself quite so loudly as 'pink and flowery').
Some misconceptions here.
One, the author almost never has any control over the cover design unless they're self-published (at most they can make suggestions, which are more likely than not to be ignored). That's all on the publisher.
Two, the only books you're likely to find with that extremely "girly" of a cover style are childrens/middle grade/maybe some YA targeted at girls and a few other outliers. You almost definitely won't find it in the genre I'm writing for (SF&F). What you will occasionally find is...ahem...chainmail bikinis and such. But mostly you'll find cover art that isn't explicitly gender coded one way or another (which is not to say they don't contain any coding, but hardly any that announces itself quite so loudly as 'pink and flowery').
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Exactly. And because the marketing folk live in the same culture we do, they sometimes bring unconscious bias to the table. Sometimes it's even conscious - they're trying to push the boundaries or make a statement, but they don't recognize when their cover for their Type X book makes it look too much like Type Y.
Mistakes get made. Generally in the name of wanting to differentiate a title from all the rest, but still, sometimes the formula isn't calculated correctly. The more you know about your own market - down to the subgenre - the more you'll be able to calibrate whether or not you think people are shoving the perception of your work in the wrong direction.
Of course, you may not be able to change it once the contract is signed, which is one reason to talk marketing plan before you accept a pub offer.
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Now I'm curious, but I'm gonna suggest we take it to PM as cover design is a bit of a topic derail.
(Also, would it help if I clarify by saying adult SF&F? Sparkly fairies and unicorns did cross my mind.)
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The trouble with unconscious bias is that it's, well, unconscious. It's easy to make assumptions based simply on that publishing already has a sort of bias in who gets published in what genres - women in romances, men in hard SF and military. And if I'm looking for a military action piece, something with the name "Rosalie Throckmorton" displayed as author may get passed over without me making a conscious decision to do so, just as a sweet romance by "Dirk Hunter" might give off a vibe that it's not representative of its genre.
Interesting read. As I read and understand what was written here, there's no financial downside to going with initials. The only downside that has been expressed is that using initials plays into the bias being discussed and debated here, and also that one won't see their own name in print.
(I had a tangential thought along these same lines though - I don't want to derail the thread. Maybe I'm immature, but FWIW I more closely fall into a world if I don't see a picture of the author online or on the book. Doesn't matter what the author looks like - once I see a face, some piece of the magic is gone. It's as though the story had a life of its own, in the realm of 'somewhere else.' I invariably prefer to not know what the author looks like. )
I plan to use a pen surname with my first two initials. I think the story should be as un-impacted as possible from these ridiculous human biases which I freely claim.
(I had a tangential thought along these same lines though - I don't want to derail the thread. Maybe I'm immature, but FWIW I more closely fall into a world if I don't see a picture of the author online or on the book. Doesn't matter what the author looks like - once I see a face, some piece of the magic is gone. It's as though the story had a life of its own, in the realm of 'somewhere else.' I invariably prefer to not know what the author looks like. )
I plan to use a pen surname with my first two initials. I think the story should be as un-impacted as possible from these ridiculous human biases which I freely claim.
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Pretty much, Patty. It only has upsides.
An adult SFF example, since YA/adult was mentioned - an author was advised to alter her name because publishers thought "Caroline Cherry" made her sound like a romance writer.
And so we have C. J. Cherryh, which has a rather more serious and gender neutral ring.
Nota bene; it's likely I'm somewhat biased on the whole issue because, I can't imagine my name being attached to anything other than surrealist comedy. And in all honesty, I've internalised so much of this stuff that I suffer from these biases pretty strongly. I catch myself skimming over asian-sounding names in book stores (yes, I know how much a massive freaking hypocrite that makes me) in favour of western ones. it's a work in progress, eh?
An adult SFF example, since YA/adult was mentioned - an author was advised to alter her name because publishers thought "Caroline Cherry" made her sound like a romance writer.
And so we have C. J. Cherryh, which has a rather more serious and gender neutral ring.
Nota bene; it's likely I'm somewhat biased on the whole issue because, I can't imagine my name being attached to anything other than surrealist comedy. And in all honesty, I've internalised so much of this stuff that I suffer from these biases pretty strongly. I catch myself skimming over asian-sounding names in book stores (yes, I know how much a massive freaking hypocrite that makes me) in favour of western ones. it's a work in progress, eh?
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Re: "seeing your name in print"
I get that this will be a subjective thing for people but just because it's initialed doesn't make it any less "my name" to me. (Maybe it's because it's a personal affect I've taken on my own rather than feeling pushed to do it.)
Re: initialisims being a female thing: There are plenty of prominent male authors who take initialed bylines too. Just in my genre there's C. S. Lewis, J. R. R. Tolkien, H. G. Wells, R. A. Salvatore...
However the reasons for any given author doing it are going to vary.
I get that this will be a subjective thing for people but just because it's initialed doesn't make it any less "my name" to me. (Maybe it's because it's a personal affect I've taken on my own rather than feeling pushed to do it.)
Re: initialisims being a female thing: There are plenty of prominent male authors who take initialed bylines too. Just in my genre there's C. S. Lewis, J. R. R. Tolkien, H. G. Wells, R. A. Salvatore...
However the reasons for any given author doing it are going to vary.