Editing books that aren't readable

Gillhoughly · May 24, 2018

ipsbishop said:
I have no doubts a lot of writing is odorous. Are there common traits in these stinkers that you see? Grammar? Construction? Dialog? Story?....

ALL of the above. I have read better fanfic from middle schoolers.

I can guess the writers tapped away at a scene until they got bored, then started again in the morning with some other scene until they got bored, rinse, repeat. Again, flat out stinky writing. Opening pages were merely mediocre and I thought I could do it and still get paid with some self-respect, but it kept getting worse. They were throwing everything they could take from Game of Thrones, zombie shows, and all of Marvel and DC movies into a pot of sh**stew and dumped it all over my laptop screen. Body counts ranged from several thousand as bloodily as possible to wiping out the entire universe. How that writer planned for sequels was beyond me, since he'd killed *everything.*

The bad punchline is they were honestly clueless as to just how awful they were.

ipsbishop · May 24, 2018

It's the Dunning Kruger effect.

WGough · May 29, 2018

This is an "I Feel Your Pain" post, so nothing helpful, really.

First, kudos for sticking with it. I was an editor for an academic press and ran into the thesis-into-book many times. One book was so bad (there-should-be-a-law bad), it took three of us months to shape it, and then the author rejected 80% of our edits. Unfortunately, despite my pleas, my boss wouldn't take my name out of the acknowledgments. The Amazon reviews consistently read, "This book needed an editor." Despite the books I'm proud of having edited, that one sticks in my craw. The job didn't pay the bills, so I had to quit. I thought I'd give anything, except the means to feed myself, to work in editing again.

And then an author I'd worked with at the press, whose work was stellar, referred a friend, and as a favor, I took on his "stories." Basically, 200-300 word anecdotes he thought were mighty impressive. The most misogynist, gorge-raising, self-pitying crap I'd ever read. Truly offensive stuff, and utterly unreadable on the sentence level, but...favor. He scoffed at any suggestions to improve the writing, called me "little lady," and told me to just fix "the grammar and commas." Granted, I charged the living crap out of him, but I felt like I needed a shower every time I thought about his writing. A few months after I cashed his check, he asked if I would ghost write his memoir. After I'd finished gagging, I politely declined. So, you're a better person than I.

I applaud all the efforts of all the editors on this thread and look forward to you telling me, "Your work made me gag."

Chase · Jun 2, 2018

Gill, like you, most of my clients self-publish, though several books on my trophy shelf are trade published.

I, too, go through a mandatory evaluation process where I edit the first 3,000 words for free. It's a tremendous tool to weed out truly bad writers, and it likewise affords some writers the chance to realize I don't fit as an editor for them. Except for one disgruntled fellow who called names, we mostly part civilly, if not friends.

On occasion, I also get a good first chapter or two and find the rest of the manuscript takes an unmanageable nosedive. I don't have to refund, because I don't charge until my clients are satisfied with their edits-to-date.

First-time clients and I have evaluation benchmarks where either of us can quit with no financial or great work burden to discover it's not working. However, most of my current clients are return authors who pay at THE END. We're all good with the system of a payday after work is approved.

Some editors who demand payment up front say my system is crazy, but I haven't been burned once--not one single time--in eight years of editing trade and self-published novels and anthologies.

Gillhoughly · Jun 2, 2018

Chase : Gill, like you, most of my clients self-publish, though several books on my trophy shelf are trade published.

I could use with more experiences like yours!

I have a number of pro-pubbed titles and except for two standouts (in a bad way), those writers were gold standard for professionalism.

The two stinkers:

One rejected all edits (11 hours of my hard work down the pan) so her sloppy how-the-heck-did-she-ever-get-published word poop went to print as-is, typos, continuity errors, and all. I approved of this writer being in the collection because she was a mega bestseller and would help our numbers. Had I read any of her books I'd have turned the name down. She's a prime example that bestselling doesn't automatically mean good writing. I later flipped through her back list. She's written the same book a dozen times, just changed the names and settings.

The other wound up screaming -- seriously, she was screaming through the phone -- because I asked for 11K words, and she gave me 22K, messing up the word count for the rest of the book and its writers. She had 3-4 fight scenes and at least 2 nookie scenes that added nothing to the plot, but she argued her fans would be "up in arms" if she cut a single golden word. (Um...sure they will.) She actually cited statistics of her readers, broken down by age and gender. My chat with the editor for that house was enlightening. They were letting her go after two books. Too Much Trouble.

Ms. Sloppy and Ms. Batcrap Crazy Ego were dropped from my list of writers to contact for new stuff. Life's too short!

On the other end of things, a NYT bestseller with a couple of TV series based on her books didn't bat an eye when I mentioned she needed another 2K words to conform to the minimum count in her contract. I suggested a good spot for a scene that would make it happen and by golly, she delivered. I thanked her a LOT.

I will hope for better quality indie clients to come. I'm tinkering with a new website and upping the prices, making myself more competitive with other editors with a similar resume. Screening will be more stringent should I take an editing job, but I think I will be a better fit as an advisor.

Thomas Vail · Jun 5, 2018

Gillhoughly said:
On the other end of things, a NYT bestseller with a couple of TV series based on her books didn't bat an eye when I mentioned she needed another 2K words to conform to the minimum count in her contract. I suggested a good spot for a scene that would make it happen and by golly, she delivered. I thanked her a LOT.

What, listening to the person who knows how to do their jobs and do it well leads to positive results? MADNESS!

CatherineDunn · Jun 9, 2018

I'm a copy-editor - not developmental - and I'm always as clear as possible with authors upfront about exactly what I'll do. I do them a sample edit, as well. I use this to price up the full job based on an hourly rate - but I insist on having sight of the full manuscript before doing the sample edit. This is so that I can have a look through and check that the quality/standard is roughly the same throughout. If it is, I'll pick half a dozen pages at random for the sample. This avoids the problem of the author sending me their 'best' pages, or just the first chapter where they were concentrating properly ;-), or a bit that they've already had edited. I've had some books that weren't the greatest, admittedly, but never any real doozies that way. I like to think I'd do the ethical thing and suggest beta readers/a developmental edit/whatever they really need.

Versailles · Sep 19, 2018

Something that unfortunately doesn't get talked about too often on AbsoluteWrite = too many people simply can't write. Period. Sure, you could go away and practice craft for 100+ hours but I'm still not sure if that would improve your "ear" for how your writing is. And to those who have to - or feel they should - edit those manuscripts, I feel nothing but the utmost sympathy and sometimes feel that a good, hard, cold serving of "I'm sorry but you can't write" might be helpful.

Why do we think we can all write? I would LOVE to be a professional singer - I LOVE singing in the shower - but pretty much 5 seconds in front of a professional singer will tell me that no, sorry, being a professional singer is not in my future. And from reading Share Your Work I think it's something we could say about the majority of writers - but why don't we?

I'm strictly in the camp of if you're tearing out your hair - quit while you're ahead. You're an editor for WRITERS, not for everybody.

Harlequin · Sep 20, 2018

Because I do think it is a skill that can be learned and where most people fall short, in my limited experience, is a) failing to read, b) failing to critique others, and c) failing to accept critique themselves.

I have seen so many people come through syw who improve incredible amounts over the course of months or a year. I'd hope I have been one of them, too. I am bad at every aspect of writing except revision; I am always willing to revise.

I do not think syw should be used to judge as a measure of anything other than what it is; learning writers trying to learn. Not unless you are keeping tabs on how people improve, or don't, as part kd that.

Yes, some will come through who don't critique others, insist they don't need to read, and react badly to crits or not take advice on. And they won't get far. But that is a matter of poor decision making IMO.

Tldr; I think there is absolutely no benefit in telling someone they can't write. Because there is nothing they can do with that feedback except ignore it or quit, and they don't need help to quit. All we can do is advise as best we can and leave it to writers to learn what's on offer, or walk away.

Maryn · Sep 20, 2018

I'm with Harlequin. I think singing at a professional level requires a basic talent which is then developed, while writing competence can be a learned skill. People can (and those who work at it do) master sentence construction, word choice, punctuation, grammar, and all that goes into basic writing mechanics.

It's worth noting that one's education, reading habits, and openness to feedback figure in. People who received a poor education, for whatever reason, start at a huge disadvantage. Often they do not realize they don't yet write with competence, and learning they aren't as good as they believed themselves to be is a substantial blow. Not everybody recovers. Many don't have the time and will to do the hard work of catching up. It takes some serious dedication to the craft to master written English if you didn't arrive at adulthood with that already in place.

I admire the hell out of people who start from such a level and continue to take criticism to heart and improve over the course of years.

Maryn, lucky in education

Editing books that aren't readable

Gillhoughly

Grumpy writer and editor

ipsbishop

WGough

Chase

It Takes All of Us to End Racism

Gillhoughly

Grumpy writer and editor

Thomas Vail

What?

CatherineDunn

Versailles

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!

Maryn

Baaa!