Dialogue modes?

Status
Not open for further replies.

sideshowdarb

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 15, 2017
Messages
352
Reaction score
73
Don't want to derail this thread with thirty year old Star Trek debates but -

Of course it advances the plot -- the films are connected. They know to save Spock because he left his soul; they go to save Spock because he's their friend, and human; Vulcan logic does not apply, as noted at the end of III, twice --

The impetus for saving Spock in III is not Kirk's statement or any realization he has at the end II - he has accepted death as a part of life, and let Spock go. Sarek arrives in III with the information that Spock may have gamed the system by placing his katra in someone - something Kirk and no one else could have anticipated.

The dialogue you reference all ties thematically back to the overall thread which does run through the entire film series. None of it advances the plot - the A,B,C of the story.

Regarding the rest of the thread, I always encourage people to write, and certainly to read. Absorb as much as you can. Write as much as you can. Suck. Try not to suck. Get better. Only way to ride a bike is to ride a bike. Same thing with writing books. Every book is a new learning experience. Every story.
 

cornflake

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Messages
16,171
Reaction score
3,734
Don't want to derail this thread with thirty year old Star Trek debates but -

The impetus for saving Spock in III is not Kirk's statement or any realization he has at the end II - he has accepted death as a part of life, and let Spock go. Sarek arrives in III with the information that Spock may have gamed the system by placing his katra in someone - something Kirk and no one else could have anticipated.

The dialogue you reference all ties thematically back to the overall thread which does run through the entire film series. None of it advances the plot - the A,B,C of the story.

Regarding the rest of the thread, I always encourage people to write, and certainly to read. Absorb as much as you can. Write as much as you can. Suck. Try not to suck. Get better. Only way to ride a bike is to ride a bike. Same thing with writing books. Every book is a new learning experience. Every story.

Oy vey. The impetus for saving Spock is actually finding Spock on Genesis and realizing they can reunite the body and soul.

However, yeah that line advances the plot. Again, to advance the plot dialogue does not have to be someone saying 'Spock is really alive -- over there!' Nor does driving the plot forward mean one thing, one line of dialogue, or one scene, is responsible for one other thing, like X-->Y in a specific, causative relationship.

If it's not driving the plot forward, it's pointless filler. Kirk feeling Spock's soul was the most human he's known and that Spock was his friend is what drives him to risk everything to get Spock back. He's not doing it because Spock has the eternal ring, or the names of all the agents in MI6. Driving the plot does not mean only 'go here!' 'tell him this,' 'I accept the job that will...' it means it propels the narrative.
 

sideshowdarb

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 15, 2017
Messages
352
Reaction score
73
So I'm going to use this discussion of Trek to discuss the topic of the thread in general, but first:

Oy vey. The impetus for saving Spock is actually finding Spock on Genesis and realizing they can reunite the body and soul.

It may serve you to rewatch the films - they're outstanding, I highly recommend doing so - Kirk is not aware of Spock's resurrection in body on Genesis when Sarek confronts him. Kirk plots and executes a plan to return to Genesis to retrieve a body he still thinks is cold before ever realizing Spock is alive or has been found by David and Savik. The impetus for Kirk to go to Genesis is the arrival of Sarek at space dock and realization that Spock may have transferred his katra to McCoy.

Since we're discussing film, it may help to consider differences between plot / story in film so we can have a better understanding of how those differences inform dialogue.

PLOT - is what happens in the film.

STORY - is why it happens. How.

THEME - is what the story is about, i.e. WoK is about a madman who seeks revenge against Kirk, but on a deeper level it's about aging, death and letting go.

All of this applies in novels as well; E.M. Forster described the difference between plot and story as "The king died and then the queen died is a story. The king died, and then queen died of grief is a plot." Dialogue will serve these different aspects of the overall narrative in different ways at different times. To use another example from another famous film franchise, consider this exchange between Luke and Obi-Wan in the original Star Wars:

Luke Skywalker: You fought in the Clone Wars?

Obi-Wan Kenobi: Yes. I was once a Jedi Knight, the same as your father.

Luke Skywalker: I wish I'd known him.

Obi-Wan Kenobi: He was the best star pilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior. I understand you've become quite a good pilot yourself. And he was a good friend.

None of this serves the plot of A New Hope; this all serves the story of the film/series, and what a story it is. It also, ultimately, goes to theme; eventually we will discover that what we hold true depends upon our point of view.

When we're considering modes of dialogue, or how dialogue functions, it's important to understand the different aspects of narrative. Any dialogue that serves only plot will neglect vast swaths of story and character and theme, and consequently limit a story's effectiveness.
 

nastyjman

not nasty at all
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 13, 2014
Messages
280
Reaction score
29
Location
NY
I'm just practicing here:

Luke Skywalker: You fought in the Clone Wars? (compel Kenobi to give information about himself. convey emotion of wonder.)

Obi-Wan Kenobi: Yes. I was once a Jedi Knight, the same as your father. (convey information. partial information; Kenobi does not go in detail of who his father truly is.)

Luke Skywalker: I wish I'd known him. (hmmm... not sure about this. convey emotion of adoration? hope? this might be transitional dialogue.)

Obi-Wan Kenobi: He was the best star pilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior. I understand you've become quite a good pilot yourself. And he was a good friend. (convey information. partial information; Kenobi does not go in detail of who his father truly is. also convey information; Luke as a good pilot.)
 

Ari Meermans

MacAllister's Official Minion & Greeter
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
12,852
Reaction score
3,041
Location
Not where you last saw me.
Alrighty, I've stayed out of the discussion of ST:TWOK and ST:TSFS for two reasons: 1.) I was hoping certain elements would be gleaned to support the thread; and, 2.) I have what might be called an unfair advantage in knowing what went down from pre-production through testing of TWOK. So, short of a Vulcan mind meld, I offer this article which most closely matches my recollection of the making of TWOK for anyone who may be interested.

It's not always about what a character knows or says or does that guides your reader's involvement in the story. Very often, it's about the subtleties, the seeds the writer plants all unknowing to the reader. The right word(s) at the right time, and all that jazz.

Let's move back to the topic, okay?
 
Last edited:

cornflake

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Messages
16,171
Reaction score
3,734
So I'm going to use this discussion of Trek to discuss the topic of the thread in general, but first:



It may serve you to rewatch the films - they're outstanding, I highly recommend doing so - Kirk is not aware of Spock's resurrection in body on Genesis when Sarek confronts him. Kirk plots and executes a plan to return to Genesis to retrieve a body he still thinks is cold before ever realizing Spock is alive or has been found by David and Savik. The impetus for Kirk to go to Genesis is the arrival of Sarek at space dock and realization that Spock may have transferred his katra to McCoy.

Since we're discussing film, it may help to consider differences between plot / story in film so we can have a better understanding of how those differences inform dialogue.

PLOT - is what happens in the film.

STORY - is why it happens. How.

THEME - is what the story is about, i.e. WoK is about a madman who seeks revenge against Kirk, but on a deeper level it's about aging, death and letting go.

All of this applies in novels as well; E.M. Forster described the difference between plot and story as "The king died and then the queen died is a story. The king died, and then queen died of grief is a plot." Dialogue will serve these different aspects of the overall narrative in different ways at different times. To use another example from another famous film franchise, consider this exchange between Luke and Obi-Wan in the original Star Wars:



None of this serves the plot of A New Hope; this all serves the story of the film/series, and what a story it is. It also, ultimately, goes to theme; eventually we will discover that what we hold true depends upon our point of view.

When we're considering modes of dialogue, or how dialogue functions, it's important to understand the different aspects of narrative. Any dialogue that serves only plot will neglect vast swaths of story and character and theme, and consequently limit a story's effectiveness.

It might help us if we read carefully enough to notice we said 'for saving Spock,' not for heading to Genesis.

We can quote Forster's endlessly quoted little thing; doesn't change that everything must drive the plot forward.
 

cornflake

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Messages
16,171
Reaction score
3,734
Alrighty, I've stayed out of the discussion of ST:TWOK and ST:TSFS for two reasons: 1.) I was hoping certain elements would be gleaned to support the thread; and, 2.) I have what might be called an unfair advantage in knowing what went down from pre-production through testing of TWOK. So, short of a Vulcan mind meld, I offer this article which most closely matches my recollection of the making of TWOK for anyone who may be interested.

It's not always about what a character knows or says or does that guides your reader's involvement in the story. Very often, it's about the subtleties, the seeds the writer plants all unknowing to the reader. The right word(s) at the right time, and all that jazz.

Let's move back to the topic, okay?

Interesting as to ST:II. Hmm.

As to the bolded, that exactly.
 

sideshowdarb

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 15, 2017
Messages
352
Reaction score
73
We can quote Forster's endlessly quoted little thing; doesn't change that everything must drive the plot forward.

I encourage you to go back to the films, and some books on the craft of writing. Forster's is worth examining, but there are many that offer a lot of varying and educated perspectives on a vast process. There's always something to be found in them, even when you think you have it all figured out.

Good luck with your writing.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.