All right, someone please convince me not to quit.

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RemusShepherd

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First, sorry if I misread what you wrote. It's just this:
...rather gave me the impression you'd sent out (at least these most recent 9) queries without doing "in-depth research."

Sorry, I'm the one who isn't being clear. I did some research. I don't know if the research I'm doing is in-depth enough. I only found 29 possible agents in the entire industry who have open subs and who want science fiction. For this novel, I started to submit and got disillusioned after 9.

3. MSWL. I've found plenty of agents I'd never previously heard of that way.

Never heard of MSWishlist before -- just found and bookmarked it. I'll add it to my research methodology. Thanks.

And yes, this is all time-consuming. But it's part of the process. Whenever I wasn't in the mood to write, I'd do a bit more agent research. I made a spreadsheet. Made a column for whether an agency would let you submit to more than one agent there.

Got that, and I can show it to you. It's depressing.

Heh. Yeah, I feel you. But if you reread what I wrote, I said patience on each MS. Twenty years is a hellishly long time to do this for no reward. But when you look at each MS individually, you've quit on it pretty soon in the process (acknowledging that you've thought you'd exhausted your querying options). It's like wanting to be a pro tennis player, but walking away to join another tournament each time you win a set then getting annoyed you haven't won a title.

Oh, there is truth here. Submitting and failing is so depressing that I want to get back to writing as soon as I can. I need a win, and finishing a novel is at least a partial win.
 

lizmonster

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Doing that, I found 39 possible agents. 10 of them are not open, despite what those sites said, or have since retired from the business. (One disappeared and is listed as a missing person!) That leaves me a total of 29 agents, some of them at the same agency so I can't submit to both. That's it, that's all there is in the industry available to me. How can I find more? How do you find more?

querytracker.net lists 180 science fiction agents. Even if 2/3 of them don't qualify (same agency, wrong subgenre, etc.) that's 60 right there.

I also found listings in those fat "how to find an agent" paperbacks. You have to verify the info, because it might be a bit out of date, but I did see names there that weren't in querytracker.

I did both of those for one novel, years ago.

Maybe time to dust off the keyboard and try again?

I feel I've had enough patience, and am allowing myself a moment of fury.

You're absolutely entitled to your emotions.

What I (and maybe a few other people) am saying is that you seem to be assuming facts not in evidence when analyzing the situation, and I wonder if reframing might help you get past some of the rage.

I also want to say, as gently as I can, that most of us on this board have been told we're good, many by people with just as many qualifications as your Hugo-winning editor. A good writer doesn't always produce a publishable novel. An outstanding writer doesn't always produce a publishable novel. And please understand, I'm not implying your novel isn't well written. There are niches and approaches that get saturated and/or fall out of favor. There are a million reasons a brilliant book might not get picked up.

I'm aware you know everything I'm telling you. I'm aware it probably doesn't help. Some of what I'm doing is sharing thoughts that have helped me during dark times. My hope for you is that you can process some of this less destructively, whether that means continuing to write or not. But you really are among people who get how you're feeling.
 

lizmonster

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It's social skills that count, because only people with social skills can get other people to help them. I'm unable to do that, even here.

It's short notice, but consider Sage's beta project. Subs are going on right now. Your personality isn't going to be on display, just the first 750 words of your novel, posted anonymously. You're not guaranteed a beta reader, but people are offering based on your work alone, not who you are (because they won't know).

I've found beta to be really hit or miss. It's taken me years to acquire two good crit partners, and they have their own lives and schedules and are sometimes tied up and can't help me out. It's hard to get a good reader.

But if you keep doing the same things, you're likely to get the same results. Rage if you need, but maybe also put some of that energy into change, even if that change is uncomfortable. Is uncomfortable really worse than your 20 years of frustration?
 

be frank

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Submitting and failing is so depressing that I want to get back to writing as soon as I can. I need a win, and finishing a novel is at least a partial win.

Yep. :) I know it's an overused platitude, and it probably won't help much to hear, but just by finishing a book (let alone 5!) you're doing better than most people.

Have you ever revisited your older novels and read them with fresh eyes? Given how markets change, and with new agents constantly cropping up, those older MSs could still be queryable. That is, maybe consider them temporarily shelved rather than trunked.
 

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In terms of finding agents, in the UK we have The Writers & Artists Yearbook, a handbook that is released yearly with up to date info and listings on agents (and publishers FWIW). That's always bee my first port of call when querying (there are agents not listed, and those can be found on Google).

Is there a US equivalent?
 

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Hi, folks. Haven't been on these boards much but I wandered back here. Let me give you a quick C.V. of me as a writer:

First published a short story 20 years ago.
Published one more short since then.
Was told by a famous editor to write novels.
Have since written five novels.
I get accolades from everyone. No less than four Hugo award-winning writers have told me I'm a "great writer" and "on the cusp".

Haven't gotten published.
Haven't gotten an agent.



Help me out here. Anyone?


I can better you by 10 years young lad, I published my first short story nearly thirty years ago, told to write novels, written at LEAST 10, drafted another 20.

I've had FOUR agents, have NEVER sold a novel. Not ever.

But by my reckoning, I NEED newer, less experienced people like you to quit (sly grin). Because if everyone who is younger or newer than me at the game quits, eventually I will outlast everyone. It's the long haul. And people behind me in the game are expecting me to quit, but I won't.

That's how you do it... sheer persistence.

(PS: I didn't get my first agent until I'd been writing 21 years)
 
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RemusShepherd

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Have you ever revisited your older novels and read them with fresh eyes? Given how markets change, and with new agents constantly cropping up, those older MSs could still be queryable. That is, maybe consider them temporarily shelved rather than trunked.

I consider one trunked (my first!) because after looking back on it I can see some severe flaws and I don't think it's publishable. I can't see glaring flaws in any of the others, so they're still live.
 

TinaG

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I will never give up on mine ever it will be published one day. My characters will find life within the written world because I know other people will love them as I do. This I’m sure helped you zero but I’m hoping my vibe is contagious and you catch it!! :tongue otherwise I see you already have some great advise going here so I'll leave you to it.

P.S welcome back it's very nice to meet you :hi:
 

KMTolan

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Stories like this are why I like the small press. Modeled after the large houses, but often with smaller staff, the small press outfits tend to be more open to new submissions. Agents not required in many cases. Most deal with e-books and print-on-demand instead of print runs. The upside is that you have a higher chance of being picked up by these folks assuming you can indeed right gud (grin). It's not the bucket-into-thimble issue I suspect folks face with the Big Five.

Always two sides to this story, of course.

On the positive side you'll see your book out in print while you're still alive. Often within a year of submission. You will be genuinely published, having been vetted and then assigned an editor (copy editor too in my case). You will get royalties. You may have some say in the cover art, and receive more personalized service. You'll get on writing panels and such, having proved that someone else thinks you're good enough to make money off of.

On the negative side, yeah, you don't see a bookstore and the higher brag rights a Big Five author might get. No hefty advances, or any advance at all for that matter. Doubt you'll get rich or well known, but these days one never knows.

You at least get your worlds "out there".
 

cool pop

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Hi Remus,

I remember you! I have been lurking on these boards since at least 2002 and but only recently started posting now and then. I remember you talking about your journey through the years. I'm sorry you have found things so difficult. Forgive me if you already mentioned this but what types of books do you write? Many times it's not the writing that's the issue, it's the story or genre. So your writing can be fantastic but if agents or pubs feel that the audience is too small they won't want it no matter how well-written it is.

Good writing is only part of it. The rest is the storytelling and the genre that's important. If the story sucks (not saying yours does) then they won't want it. They would rather have a book that's interesting and they feel readers want to read than something with great writing. That's just the truth. Getting published is about more than the writing. It's proof of this when you see so many books (that by some people's standards aren't good writing) but they are huge sellers. Why? They can tell a good story and readers become connected to their voice. Many authors aren't great writers but fantastic storytellers and in today's world, that's what a large group of readers want above all else.

Pubs and agents want books that hook people right off the gate. That first five pages thing is not a myth. It's true because this is also how readers judge a book. In today's quick world, readers don't often have the patience to dive into a book that takes too long to get started. Some do but many live such fast-paced lives now and have so many books at their disposal they check the look inside at Amazon or if still buying print, flip through one or two pages and if they aren't hooked, they don't buy.

That's why agents and pubs are so obsessed with the first few pages. Because this is what determines if a reader will continue or not. If a story is greatly written but agents or editors find it boring, it's not going to sell.

It's great that Hugo people love your work but they might not mirror the interests that everyday readers have for a book. To get an agent or publisher, your book has to have a large enough audience where they figure they can sell it and make some money.

I'm wondering since you said you get such glowing things said about your writing if it is WHAT you are writing that agents and pubs aren't interested in.

Also, if you are getting a lot of form rejections or no response rejections that is a big issue. If many don't even take the time to share thoughts it sounds like your book isn't holding their interest enough to even finish reading unfortunately. There is some disconnect there that you need to try to weed out. Something is stopping them from even replying.

Self-publishing might be a disappointment as well if your audience is too small or you write in a very small niche. I was with a big house, then small houses and now I self-publish so I understand how the methods differ. Self-publishing the right way is HARD and it is even harder if you are writing books that are hard to sell. In that regard, trade publishing
and self-publishing is the same.

You're still going to have to attract the same pool of readers self-publishing that you would with a trade book meaning if the audience is too tiny for a publisher
it will be just as difficult if you self-published. But, if you can get a handle on marketing to your core audience you might can connect.

Another thing, we all can improve no matter what stage we get into. No one is perfect and no book is perfect. It doesn't matter who is telling you your writing is wonderful if agents
and editors aren't interested in it.

Good luck!
 
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RemusShepherd

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Forgive me if you already mentioned this but what types of books do you write?

Science fiction. Always weird, generally humorous.

Many times it's not the writing that's the issue, it's the story or genre. So your writing can be fantastic but if agents or pubs feel that the audience is too small they won't want it no matter how well-written it is.

Yes, but that goes back to my being 'not pretty enough'. If my interests do not align with society, they'll ignore me. I can't help that.

I know that I have a problem with protagonists who aren't sympathetic, so I've put extra work into making them approachable and interesting. I know that I have a problem with putting absurd satire into everything -- that's a hard habit to break, because my life is absurd to the point of being surreal and I just have no experience of a world that isn't. So I've been alternating novels. I write one novel where I lean into the absurdity and make it as entertaining as possible. Then I write a novel where I fight myself and try to write like a normal person would write. When they're finished, I love the absurd novels and I hate the mundane ones.

That's the best I can do. I can't write to market because I don't understand it and it doesn't appeal to me. I can't write vampire romance like a 'normal' person, I just can't do it.

I'm wondering since you said you get such glowing things said about your writing if it is WHAT you are writing that agents and pubs aren't interested in.

I'm sure it is. That's part of being social. I'm so removed from the human race, I don't know what they like. So I write what *I* like and hope other people can enjoy it too. That's all I can do. I'm an alien (emotionally speaking) trying to break into a human industry. I can only emulate you fleshy meatsicles so well, and it shows.

Another thing, we all can improve no matter what stage we get into. No one is perfect and no book is perfect. It doesn't matter who is telling you your writing is wonderful if agents and editors aren't interested in it.

I agree completely. I absolutely believe that I can improve. I just included those comments from authors and editors because they're a source of frustration to me, and because it's an indication that my skill level is not the problem. I don't know how to improve -- crit groups are difficult to get into and often worthless, in my experience -- but I'd love to, if it were possible.
 

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For what it's worth, Remus:

My protagonist was unlikable and I didn't realize it until about the sixth draft. Because I liked him a lot.

I made two tweaks to him and voila, he's likable to everyone else now too.

Tweak one: An athletic ability. It seemed stupid to me to add that at the time, but I can't argue with the effect on his likability. I carried it through the novel as a sort of theme.

Tweak two: Everybody wanted him to get the girl. The feminist in me wondered why nobody cared what the girl thought about all that, and I was rather put off (lol).

But, I gave them a nice kiss, after which she rather brutally made a point that she wasn't that into him. Poor guy. Now the kiss is there and we feel bad for him for being rejected and the story goes merrily along.

I think there are some good tips out there in cyberspace for increasing likability ('pet the cat' for example.) I think it can be simple tweaks that feel artificial to us as aliens/writers but could work without disrupting the story too much. And ironically makes the characters feel less artificial to the readers.
 
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Maryn

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AbWrite is about as helpful as other online accumulations of random strangers. Only people who can make friends get help, and I am terrible at making friends. I'm abrasive and ugly, even online. I can't get a better crit group; I'm lucky if people talk to me at all. It's social skills that count, because only people with social skills can get other people to help them. I'm unable to do that, even here.
I cannot agree. You are among a self-selected group that includes a great many introverts and loners with poor social skills, myself among them. What are they doing at AW that you're not doing?

What I see them doing is something you're fully capable of doing, which is talking about writing and books with other writers. But you don't. I imagine you could answer many beginners' questions, give thoughtful critique, do beta reads with more useful input than the one you received, share the title of a recent read you enjoyed and why, and so on. But again, you don't. Instead, you blame you lack of social skills, knowing that you're "abrasive and ugly," because that's easier.

I don't see it as you unable to make friends here. I see it as unwilling to put forth the effort to be part of the greater community.

Maryn, blunt at times
 

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Remus you posted about these issues before.

In 2010 you posted about your terrible crit group and taking critiques.

The same year you posted about What to do when the problem is you

In 2012. It's all about socializing, and I can't do that.

You're still asking the same questions eight years later. You're still pointing at other people, and an inability to socialize as the root cause for not being published as you want.

You're not on submission; your book is. No one really cares how socialized you are. They care about your writing. Any kind of outward socializing you're likely to be pressured to engage in is going to be in writing.
 
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