A link between Creativity and Schizophenia? Of course!

Sarahani said:

Going back to the main topic of the thread, I personally believe that it's logical that artists (writers in particular) are highly prone to develop mental illnesses like Schizophrenia and Bipolar Disorder since the process of creation impose imagination. Imagination is the stretching of your mind and of your emotion to depth and width of humanity and existence. And the going back and forth between the inner reality and the external realm is very similar to the schizophrenic and the bipolar struggles the mentally ill experience on a daily basis.

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There are differences between mental disorder and disease (illness). Many creative people take mind-altering substances (such as alcohol, drugs, high levels of caffeine, other) to be creative. What makes you sure these substances are not the culprits to any mental disorders developed over time? What makes you think that one thing (the process of creativity) is the sole culprit to mental disorders? Too many metals in one's diet (from things like antacids) has been linked to Alzheimer's disease.

You make a lot of assumptions and they are illogical.

Sarahani said:

I have created another thread in this forum few months ago, entitled "Does writing (or Art in general) require a certain level of misery?" It is instructive I think but if you go to the post #36 I claim that writing is actually linked to Schizophrenia and Bipolar Disorder. Following my statement I was asked to give my sources, links to the studies, and worse I was temporarily blocked by a moderator as if I said an aberration. And then this came out few days ago:

https://unhingedgroup.wordpress.com...chance-of-being-diagnosed-with-schizophrenia/


The study has been reused and confirmed by major newspapers and websites including New Scientist, BBC, Big Think, Psychology today, IFL science, Telegraph etc. I am not trying to brag about how right I was, I just need to explain a particular point. Since I left the academic system, I have decided to break myself free from some of its absurd rules. One of them is to provide sources for every single idea, word I am claiming. One reason is that when people cannot disprove your statement they will try to discredit your source (classic strategy used in a debate). This means that I feel tied down and unable to let my mind freely wander and search for truth and ideas... anyway.

The reason why I didn't and usually don't give my sources is because, any one can just type the words "writing and mental illness" in the google search bar and find every info about it. Some studies are as old as 50 or 60 years old. The link between Art and mental illnesses is not new.

Going back to the main topic of the thread, I personally believe that it's logical that artists (writers in particular) are highly prone to develop mental illnesses like Schizophrenia and Bipolar Disorder since the process of creation impose imagination. Imagination is the stretching of your mind and of your emotion to depth and width of humanity and existence. And the going back and forth between the inner reality and the external realm is very similar to the schizophrenic and the bipolar struggles the mentally ill experience on a daily basis.

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The study in question suggests a correlation between art degrees and hospital admissions for certain diagnoses. There's a lot to unpack there, but correlation of art degrees and hospitalizations in Sweden is layered and specific.

this thread feels like a massive TI (transfer of issues).

from the title and tone of your posts, you've made up your mind and see the issue as clear-cut, and you're not actually seeking opinions. so where is this discussion going, and what are you wanting to prove?

Sooo much to unpack here. I will have a swing at it

Sarahani said:

The study has been reused and confirmed by major newspapers and websites including New Scientist, BBC, Big Think, Psychology today, IFL science, Telegraph etc. I am not trying to brag about how right I was, I just need to explain a particular point. Since I left the academic system, I have decided to break myself free from some of its absurd rules. One of them is to provide sources for every single idea, word I am claiming. One reason is that when people cannot disprove your statement they will try to discredit your source (classic strategy used in a debate). This means that I feel tied down and unable to let my mind freely wander and search for truth and ideas... anyway.

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The fact a study gets reused by newspapers and magazines doesn't mean jack. Never has. Never will. The best studies don't get quoted and it's usually the "WE HAVE CURED CANCER" crap that gets quoted and taken out of context.

I am not sure what area of academia you were in but "decided to break myself free from some of its absurd rules. One of them is to provide sources for every single idea" makes it sound like you weren't in science. The question you pose, "Is creativity linked to mental illness?" is a strictly scientific question, falling under the discipline of epidemiology. If you are going to answer it accurately, you need to provide scientific evidence. Otherwise it's your opinion and you haven't proven anything. Also, if you are going to make major hypothesis, the onus is on you to provide proof, not on us to disprove it. That's how science works. That's what got us into space, gave us modern medicine and, pretty much, makes the world go round.

Sarahani said:

The reason why I didn't and usually don't give my sources is because, any one can just type the words "writing and mental illness" in the google search bar and find every info about it. Some studies are as old as 50 or 60 years old. The link between Art and mental illnesses is not new.

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Yep... you don't sound like a scientist. Science doesn't depend on google searches. You need rigorous scientific evidence, verified in multiple studies, by multiple groups, across multiple populations (especially if you are going to generalize it to everyone). That is the ideal, of course. Sometimes, you can cut corners but it all depends on the type of study. Case-control studies in a population known to have some of the highest rates of depression in the world (thought to be Vitamin-D linked) doesn't count.

Sarahani said:

Going back to the main topic of the thread, I personally believe that it's logical that artists (writers in particular) are highly prone to develop mental illnesses like Schizophrenia and Bipolar Disorder since the process of creation impose imagination. Imagination is the stretching of your mind and of your emotion to depth and width of humanity and existence. And the going back and forth between the inner reality and the external realm is very similar to the schizophrenic and the bipolar struggles the mentally ill experience on a daily basis.

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Hmmm... I dunno about this. Do you suffer from either of these disorders? I write and I've also treated people with mental illnesses, and I can't see any parallels between the two. If you asked: can experiencing mental illness enrich someone's writing? Then the answer would, no doubt, be yes. But you are saying that artists are prone to developing mental illness - this is where your statements get iffy... scientifically speaking. Opinions aside.

There is no good biopsychosocial model that leads from creativity to psychotic and mood disorders. And there is AMPLE evidence regarding the effect of genetics. Substance abuse can contribute but I think it's stigmatizing to quote this as a primary cause. Plus, it is difficult to determine the direction of causality between substance abuse and psychotic and mood disorders.


Now, getting to the study that you think "proves" your hypothesis that creativity -> mental disorders. I downloaded a pdf of the full thing.

First, the population is restricted to Sweden. A high-income country with a known high prevalence of mood disorders. All participants were University-educated. This makes generalisability poor.

What really buggers up this study is that they don't provide absolute values, only odds ratios. Gah. Studies tend to do this when the association is weak and they want to publish anyway. If the association was strong, they'd be providing absolute values, no doubt.

The difficulty, for you, arises in the first line of "Aims". I quote: "we sought to test the hypothesis that creativity is associated with severe adult mental disorders in a national population."
They are trying to test association NOT causality. Those two things are very different.

I.e. this study does not prove your hypothesis. Not even close.

It's also specifically noting hospitalizations and higher-level arts schooling, no? I could easily make an argument based around the standard age of onset of schizophrenia disrupting more traditional schooling and Sweden's long history with art therapy to link those two things without any organic connection.

Hence the problem with trying to 'prove' some kind of causative link from a narrow correlation-based study.

cornflake said:

It's also specifically noting hospitalizations and higher-level arts schooling, no? I could easily make an argument based around the standard age of onset of schizophrenia disrupting more traditional schooling and Sweden's long history with art therapy to link those two things without any organic connection.

Hence the problem with trying to 'prove' some kind of causative link from a narrow correlation-based study.

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Yeah, absolutely.

Sarahani said:

I have created another thread in this forum few months ago, entitled "Does writing (or Art in general) require a certain level of misery?" It is instructive I think but if you go to the post #36 I claim that writing is actually linked to Schizophrenia and Bipolar Disorder. Following my statement I was asked to give my sources, links to the studies, and worse I was temporarily blocked by a moderator as if I said an aberration. And then this came out few days ago:

https://unhingedgroup.wordpress.com...chance-of-being-diagnosed-with-schizophrenia/


The study has been reused and confirmed by major newspapers and websites including New Scientist, BBC, Big Think, Psychology today, IFL science, Telegraph etc. I am not trying to brag about how right I was, I just need to explain a particular point. Since I left the academic system, I have decided to break myself free from some of its absurd rules. One of them is to provide sources for every single idea, word I am claiming. One reason is that when people cannot disprove your statement they will try to discredit your source (classic strategy used in a debate). This means that I feel tied down and unable to let my mind freely wander and search for truth and ideas... anyway.

The reason why I didn't and usually don't give my sources is because, any one can just type the words "writing and mental illness" in the google search bar and find every info about it. Some studies are as old as 50 or 60 years old. The link between Art and mental illnesses is not new.

Going back to the main topic of the thread, I personally believe that it's logical that artists (writers in particular) are highly prone to develop mental illnesses like Schizophrenia and Bipolar Disorder since the process of creation impose imagination. Imagination is the stretching of your mind and of your emotion to depth and width of humanity and existence. And the going back and forth between the inner reality and the external realm is very similar to the schizophrenic and the bipolar struggles the mentally ill experience on a daily basis.

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[Emphasis is mine.]

Sarahani, that is NOT at all what happened.

You originally posted that thread, "Does writing (or Art in general) require a certain level of misery?", in another room and made assumptions and generalizations (as you do here in this thread).

You were called on those generalizations and I made a request for source citations to which you did not respond.

Ari Meermans said:

Cite your sources, please. You're stating "facts" not in evidence in this thread.

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The room mod closed the thread, then asked for volunteers for hosting your thread—and I, being the fool I am, volunteered.

The thread was moved to Roundtable and I posted the following:

Ari Meermans said:

I think this is can be an interesting and informative topic simply because certain ideas about the writer's life do crop up from time to time.

So.


General PSA: When the thread reopens the usual "rules of the road" in RT will be followed:

• Citations are required for references to studies, statistics, or other "facts".
• Personal experiences are allowed as long as it is clear the references ARE from personal experience. (We can learn from each other as long as we're respectful.)
• Posts deviating (overly much) from the original topic will be deleted and PM(s) will be sent.
• No snarking at each other.

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That thread has remained open in Roundtable, yet you have not returned to the thread to cite your sources.

Mod Note: So, here's a thing: If you have an issue with a mod decision in any room, take it up with the room mod(s) via PM.

I now return you to this thread's topic.

Sarahani said:

I have created another thread in this forum few months ago, entitled "Does writing (or Art in general) require a certain level of misery?" It is instructive I think but if you go to the post #36 I claim that writing is actually linked to Schizophrenia and Bipolar Disorder. Following my statement I was asked to give my sources, links to the studies, and worse I was temporarily blocked by a moderator as if I said an aberration. And then this came out few days ago:

https://unhingedgroup.wordpress.com...chance-of-being-diagnosed-with-schizophrenia/


The study has been reused and confirmed by major newspapers and websites including New Scientist, BBC, Big Think, Psychology today, IFL science, Telegraph etc. I am not trying to brag about how right I was, I just need to explain a particular point. Since I left the academic system, I have decided to break myself free from some of its absurd rules. One of them is to provide sources for every single idea, word I am claiming. One reason is that when people cannot disprove your statement they will try to discredit your source (classic strategy used in a debate). This means that I feel tied down and unable to let my mind freely wander and search for truth and ideas... anyway.

The reason why I didn't and usually don't give my sources is because, any one can just type the words "writing and mental illness" in the google search bar and find every info about it. Some studies are as old as 50 or 60 years old. The link between Art and mental illnesses is not new.

Going back to the main topic of the thread, I personally believe that it's logical that artists (writers in particular) are highly prone to develop mental illnesses like Schizophrenia and Bipolar Disorder since the process of creation impose imagination. Imagination is the stretching of your mind and of your emotion to depth and width of humanity and existence. And the going back and forth between the inner reality and the external realm is very similar to the schizophrenic and the bipolar struggles the mentally ill experience on a daily basis.

Click to expand...

Well, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but you did provide a reference, albeit inadvertently. There's a link to the paper in the blog article you cited. It looks as though they didn't compare like with like to arrive at their conclusions, so that's a problem. But I expect that's of little importance to you.

So what if I'm a little bit crazy? It's better than being boring.

Girlsgottawrite said:

So what if I'm a little bit crazy? It's better than being boring.

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Nice.

This is incredibly debatable and I would more say it depends on a person-to-person basis. If you look at statistics, I'm sure there are MANY people with both disorders (and schizophrenia is especially debilitating) who are not successful, or even competent, writers.

I would not accept the assumption that it is inherently linked. Sure, there have been standouts, but hasn't there been with everything?