"Why to write one way or another" - Italicized thoughts?

Woollybear · May 11, 2018

I am writing in limited third, alternating between two protagonists.

Some people in real life dislike the direct italicized thoughts in my story. Others say those are fine. To my way of thinking, italicized thought is about as close as you can get to the PoV character as possible - you are definitely in their head and there is no (real) room for intentional lying. It's a neat trick. The thoughts are absolutely reliable. Yet, these critique partners dislike direct italicized thought. Popular authors seem to use italicized thought, so I think it's still a thing in fantasy/science fiction

I wonder how I should resolve this?

I definitely want to be consistent throughout my story - I could have very few such thoughts, only in certain types of situations, like emotionally fraught scenes.

I could bow to the critiques and convert them to indirect narrative.

(Patty wondered how to resolve this).

I could check with the people at AW. This might help me figure it out.

What are your thoughts on italicized direct thought?

benbenberi · May 11, 2018

The problems I have with "direct italicized thought" are generally around the italics, not the direct thought. Basically, italics are always intrusive. Used very sparingly -- the occasional word, or a line every few pages -- no problem. Long passages in italics, or italics used very frequently, are distracting and quickly become annoying to me. When you're in deep POV, it's often unnecessary to italicize thoughts at all. You're already inside their head.

Jason · May 11, 2018

I think it’s definitely the standard but I read SF/Fantasy almost exclusively, so I could be biased...

DanielSTJ · May 11, 2018

Interesting idea and one that will be incorporated in my oeuvre!

Thanks for the idea. I'm also very curious as to what others will say.

Lakey · May 11, 2018

Patty said:
I am writing in limited third, alternating between two protagonists.

Some people in real life dislike the direct italicized thoughts in my story. Others say those are fine. To my way of thinking, italicized thought is about as close as you can get to the PoV character as possible - you are definitely in their head and there is no (real) room for intentional lying. It's a neat trick. The thoughts are absolutely reliable. Yet, these critique partners dislike direct italicized thought. Popular authors seem to use italicized thought, so I think it's still a thing in fantasy/science fiction

I wonder how I should resolve this?

I definitely want to be consistent throughout my story - I could have very few such thoughts, only in certain types of situations, like emotionally fraught scenes.

I could bow to the critiques and convert them to indirect narrative.

(Patty wondered how to resolve this).

I could check with the people at AW. This might help me figure it out.

What are your thoughts on italicized direct thought?

There's a third option, that avoids the italics and also removes the filtering "wondered":

How to resolve this?

I'm as green as you are, Patty - also still working on my first novel - but for what it's worth, I agree with benbenberi to use the italics approach very sparingly. I would tend toward the third approach as being deep in the POV character's mind without typographical tricks, and without trying to literally transcribe thoughts (really, how often do thoughts come in complete, fully articulated sentences anyway?).

BethS · May 11, 2018

Patty said:
Yet, these critique partners dislike direct italicized thought. Popular authors seem to use italicized thought, so I think it's still a thing in fantasy/science fiction

I wonder how I should resolve this?

First, it's your book, your style, your voice. You'll never please everyone, anyway.

Second, before you make a final decision, consider that the reason your readers are objecting might be because the italicized thoughts are used too often, and/or are too long, and/or don't sound like the way people think. IOW, it's possible that the readers feel they are intrusive in some way.

Could be any or all of those (or none!), and if so, some pruning and rewriting may be the ticket. But it could be that your critique partners just have a prejudice against them, and in that case, you should feel free to ignore them.

I personally don't have anything against italicized thoughts as long as they're done sparingly and concisely. It certainly is possible to overdo them, though.

Curlz · May 11, 2018

Patty said:
To my way of thinking, italicized thought is about as close as you can get to the PoV character as possible - you are definitely in their head and there is no (real) room for intentional lying.

Is that your impression as a writer (you've read lots of advice on writing and have come to the conclusion that italicized thought is best for close PoV) or, is that your impression as a reader (you've read a few books where character thoughts were not italicised and that seemed to distance the PoV) ?

I don't see much italicized thought used in the books I read, so to me it sounds odd when used in large amounts.

maggiee19 · May 11, 2018

I always italicized thoughts because that's the way they appeared in novels I've read. I guess I should change that now.

Woollybear · May 11, 2018

Heya thanks everyone!!!

Curlz:

It's my impression as a reader of primarily SciFi/Fantasy. Telepathy is always italicized. On non-telepathic worlds, thought is often italicized. It's a tell - that this is unspoken word, and ... definitely truth (in my experience). Very intimate. Very reliable.

'How to resolve this?' <- is a thought ... but could be interpreted as ... rhetorical question.

Not quite the same as italics I am thought. Non-italicized is definitely more subtle ... it could be missed as thought. I've been using a mix so far - depending how close I want to get to the PoV character's mind. A passing thought, 'She wondered which bow to put in her hair,' no big deal, no italics. This will kill me. That would be italicized. It usually shifts into first, for the italicized thought. Hence, intimacy.

~~~

I just read the recent Spec Fic / Fantasy award winning book 'The Power' and italics are used for two purposes, but not thought. Thought happens as unquoted regular text:

She says to the voice: Today, right?
The voice says: You bet.

But in other recently published books (fantasy) this exchange would more likely be stated in her PoV and it would be:

Today, right?
The voice spoke directly into her mind. You bet.

It may be partly a time/age issue (but recent fantasy still uses it) similar to the usage of apostrophes in fantasy names. It had been common, and is less so now.

Lakey · May 11, 2018

Patty said:
'How to resolve this?' <- is a thought ... but could be interpreted as ... rhetorical question.

In a close limited third-person POV? Where thoughts that aren’t questions are being expressed this way all the time, all over the text everywhere in the text? And where it’s immediately followed by the character’s thoughts about how to resolve the issue? I don’t think so. The fact that it’s got a question mark after it doesn’t make it any less a character’s thought than the second sentence of the following (again, in a limited third-person context):

She delclined Mr. Green’s invitation. He was an odious man.

You could write:

She declined Mr. Green’s invitation. He’s so odious.

But I’m not sure what you gain by doing that. I don’t see what’s more veracious or precise about it. And I’d be wary of doing it too frequently when there’s no good reason for it.

Your mileage may vary, of course. Elsewhere you mention telepathic communication - if that’s what you’re going for, than obviously comments on POV are irrelevant. I thought you were asking about how to express a character’s thoughts in narration, and what I’m trying to say is that in a close POV you are already doing that all the time, without italics, and mostly without filtering.

Woollybear · May 11, 2018

Aha. Excellent point. Thank you. I'm still struggling with tips on how to get closer in PoV, too.

I'm going to take a look at whether it's the thoughts-that-shift-to-1st that make me feel like it pulls me in.

She declined Mr. Green’s invitation. She was too tired for socializing.

You could write:

She declined Mr. Green’s invitation. I'm too tired for socializing.

screenscope · May 11, 2018

I doubt any readers care how you do it or even notice the method as long as what you do is clear, consistent and makes sense.

Toto Too · May 11, 2018

Patty said:
Aha. Excellent point. Thank you. I'm still struggling with tips on how to get closer in PoV, too.

I'm going to take a look at whether it's the thoughts-that-shift-to-1st that make me feel like it pulls me in.

She declined Mr. Green’s invitation. She was too tired for socializing.

You could write:

She declined Mr. Green’s invitation. I'm too tired for socializing.

I'm struggling with this aspect of writing as well, and although I'm a total rookie, I would find this kind of POV shift jarring. Unless it would be used sparingly, as others have mentioned, and maybe for sentences exhibiting much more emphasis - Ugh, will this madness never end?

To me, your snippet might work better like this:

She declined Mr. Green's invitation. The events of the evening had left her too tired for socializing.

Then again, I'm writing a more distant third, and I think you're going for close third. So I don't know. Hopefully we both figure this out

blacbird · May 11, 2018

screenscope said:
I doubt any readers care how you do it or even notice the method as long as what you do is clear, consistent and makes sense.

This, exactly. Think about clarity, above all, and you'll be okay, regardless of the specific formatting choices you make.

caw

Woollybear · May 11, 2018

Thanks everyone!

You guys rock. I feel good about it. Carry on.

Juggernaut · May 12, 2018

Hi,

Wow. Okay, I am a total newbie to writing a novel.

I thought I just write what the character thinks in quotations and then use "thought John" instead of "said John". Is this totally wrong?

examples:
"I wonder how I should resolve this," thought Patty.
Paul thought, "I must be totally mistaken."

Am I way off?

Thanks!
Paul

Woollybear · May 12, 2018

I've seen people use single quotes for thought in some cases. I've seen your approach too. I'm partly curious if it is a genre thing. My guess is children books have their own conventions because - children.

I think what everyone is saying is to be non-intrusive and consistent.

I like to cut words, so if I wonder... works as well as "I wonder," thought Marielle - then that'd be my preference.

benbenberi · May 12, 2018

Putting thoughts in quotation marks is a bad idea. It makes it much too easy to confuse them with spoken dialog.

And trying to differentiate between single quotes and double quotes is pointless. Single/double quotes are largely a matter of house style -- single quotes are sometimes used by UK publishers where US ones always use double -- and as such, you the author don't get a say. Also, readers are not sensitized to notice a distinction between single & double quotes as something that affects the meaning of a passage, so even if you got it into the final book it would fly right past your audience anyway.

The deeper you are in a POV, the less need there is for filtering words like I wonder.

Emily Patrice · May 12, 2018

I don't like to see thoughts italicized when you're already in the character's head. In my case (contemporary fic), I use offset italics for text messages, so I couldn't use them for thoughts anyway.

You do end up with an immediacy problem because thoughts have to be in the past tense, but I actually prefer this to present tense thoughts and I can still get a distinctive voice for each character. E.g.

“I hope you appreciate my concerns,” Rosa said. “It’s not just the violent imagery. Some of that material is bordering on pornographic.”

Okay, now Jesse really needed to see those sketches.

This is very deeply in Jesse's POV. With italicized thoughts it would be:

“I hope you appreciate my concerns,” Rosa said. “It’s not just the violent imagery. Some of that material is bordering on pornographic.”

Okay, now I really need to see those sketches.

This just takes me out of the narration somehow. It's like Jesse suddenly started typing the chapter for me. If you only have one POV character it may not matter, but with multiple POVs in different chapters, I don't like the idea of smattering first-person phrases throughout.

Woollybear · May 12, 2018

To add another wrinkle, I'm allowing (unitalicized) sentence fragments to creep into the latest draft and they feel vaguely thought-y (like wise contributors here said, thoughts are fragments.)

indianroads · May 12, 2018

IMO using italics can be distracting if over done.

Used for emphasis: Sometimes italics can really be over used.

Used for internal thoughts: Her reflection caught in the glass expanse that covered the front of the City Council Building; upon seeing herself she smiled, not bad for 71 years old.

Some characters may be more inclined for these sorts of internal thoughts. IMO it's a good idea to pay attention to that, along with phrasing and word choice that add personality to your character.

Toto Too · May 12, 2018

And I do think there is a distinction here between distant and close POV (or, tell me I'm wrong!) I'm using distant third, so I'm not often very deep in the character's head. It feels jarring if I suddenly jump into the character's stream of thoughts. So on occasion I have sentences such as

Allie wondered how much money was spent to build a machine like that.

Or in more dramatic scenes, I will use italics, though maybe only three times in the entire book. For instance, I think

There's no chance I'm making it out of here alive.

works better than

Allie began wondering if she would even make it out of there alive.

So I'm thinking that, used judiciously, filters and italics might have their place in distant third, if not in close third. But I would love to be educated.

Roxxsmom · May 12, 2018

I always thought that italicized thoughts were a technique used in omniscient or a more distant limited third, where the main narrative "voice" isn't in the character's own words, but the author wants to make an occasional, unambiguous foray into a character's inner thoughts without using filters, like 'she thought" or whatever. I've seen some exceptions, such as the way Abercrombie handled Glokta's inner voice and sarcastic asides in The First Law Trilogy, but usually it works best when it's done sparingly. It can be annoying to some readers if italicized internals are too frequent or too long, especially if they are a contrast with the general narrative.

When you want to go "deeper," there are techniques for making sure the narrative itself is in the voice and reflects the perceptions and attitude of the pov character.

http://talktoyouniverse.blogspot.com/2011/11/checklist-for-deep-pov-in-1st-or-3rd.html

It is possible to "lie," however, in a deep narrative, if you want your narrating character to be unreliable. People can be in denial about things, and people can certainly lie to themselves. I think it's actually harder for an omniscient, or for a more distant limited third, narrator to deliberately mislead the reader.

EmmaSohan · May 12, 2018

There's another distinction, as if italics needed any more complexity. If you are doing first person, or a tight limited third person, then all of the narration is the characters thoughts and the reader knows that. So you don't need "Patty thought he was being mean." You can just write "He was being mean."

People already said that. So you don't use italics to mark thoughts, and then they can be used for "inner speech."

"You're really short, Patty."
I'm just right, Kevin. "I'll wear heels."

Notice how that's directed towards Kevin, though it didn't have to be to get italics. It could, for example, be used for a comment the MC almost said but did not.

I've never seen that written anywhere, but writer's seem reasonably consistent about it.

Emily Patrice · May 12, 2018

Patty said:
To add another wrinkle, I'm allowing (unitalicized) sentence fragments to creep into the latest draft and they feel vaguely thought-y (like wise contributors here said, thoughts are fragments.)

Nothing wrong with this at all. Sentence fragments are wildly underrated, and this is a perfect use of them.

"Why to write one way or another" - Italicized thoughts?

Woollybear

benbenberi

practical experience, FTW

Jason

Ideas bounce around in my head

DanielSTJ

The Wandering Bard

Lakey

professional dilettante

BethS

Curlz

cutsie-pie

maggiee19

Woollybear

Lakey

professional dilettante

Woollybear

screenscope

Toto Too

blacbird

Woollybear

Juggernaut

Woollybear

benbenberi

practical experience, FTW

Emily Patrice

Woollybear

indianroads

Wherever I go, there I am.

Toto Too

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

EmmaSohan

Emily Patrice