Would you sign a contract (for a novel) with an indie publisher who...

Aloysius

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says in the covering letter: "we cover all costs of book production, marketing, and distribution, and it comes with 20% royalties for the author."
 

mrsmig

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The cover letter is meaningless. Is that language in the actual contract? If so, does the contract specify how the royalty split is calculated? There's a world of difference between a royalty payment calculated on cover price, and one calculated on net profit. In fact, if the word "net" appears in any description of royalty payout, don't sign anything until you have a specific breakdown of how "net" is calculated.

And - just to do your due diligence - have you checked the Bewares, Recommendations and Background Checks subforum to see if your indie publisher has a thread there? If it does, reading it could be enlightening.

Link: Bewares, Recommendations and Background Checks Index to Agents, Publishers and Others
 

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Seconding that.

If it's not in the contract, it doesn't exist.
 

Aloysius

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"Net receipts" is in the contract. It states: "Net receipts are the payments that [Publisher's name] actually receives from sales of _____, less any printing and distribution charges, returns, taxes, credit card charges, shipping and handling costs." This would seem to contradict the cover letter's assertion.
 

Old Hack

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It doesn't matter what it says in the letter. Assume the letter doesn't exist. Just consider the contract. That's all you'll be bound by.

Have you checked them out in BR&BC? Are you sure they're legit?
 

Aloysius

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They're not in the BR&BC.

In existence for only a year but they've already published over a dozen books.

I would be delighted to share the particulars via pm with anyone on the forum more knowledgeable about these matters that I am (which means most of you).

I made a big mistake with a biography I wrote by signing the contract without sticking up for myself. It was scholarly yet sold over 10,000 copies and in the end I made peanuts from it. A very good publisher too.

One thing I got burned on with the biography was translations (into Greek and Italian) which I made but a few pennies on. In the contract just offered I control translations, tv, film, etc. so in regard to some considerations the present offer looks better than what I had. This turned out be to be important with the biography because the book was under contract to Oliver Stone for two and a half years although never turned into a movie. I did make a few bucks from the option contracts.

So, help!

Any advice shared here or in private will be immensely appreciated.
 

mrsmig

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"Net receipts" is in the contract. It states: "Net receipts are the payments that [Publisher's name] actually receives from sales of _____, less any printing and distribution charges, returns, taxes, credit card charges, shipping and handling costs." This would seem to contradict the cover letter's assertion.

This is typical under-capitalized small publisher double-talk. They say they're going to to pay for everything, but then they attempt to claw back their operating expenses from your royalties. Since the expenses they've stated above can be both fluid and impossible for an author to verify, you will never know if the royalties you receive (if any) are correct. This is a bad contract and you should not sign it.

I'd love to know who the publisher is so I can look at their website and start an appropriate BR&BC thread. There are so many trusting authors out there who don't know beans about the business. Once my book was out on submission, I read BR&BC religiously, and it saved me from at least one shifty contract.
 
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Old Hack

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Feel free to PM me the name of the publisher, and a link to their website. In confidence, of course.
 

Chris P

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They're not in the BR&BC.

In existence for only a year but they've already published over a dozen books.

I would be delighted to share the particulars via pm with anyone on the forum more knowledgeable about these matters that I am (which means most of you).

I made a big mistake with a biography I wrote by signing the contract without sticking up for myself. It was scholarly yet sold over 10,000 copies and in the end I made peanuts from it. A very good publisher too.

One thing I got burned on with the biography was translations (into Greek and Italian) which I made but a few pennies on. In the contract just offered I control translations, tv, film, etc. so in regard to some considerations the present offer looks better than what I had. This turned out be to be important with the biography because the book was under contract to Oliver Stone for two and a half years although never turned into a movie. I did make a few bucks from the option contracts.

So, help!

Any advice shared here or in private will be immensely appreciated.

I can't say anything at all about contracts, but as to the books I'd encourage you to do a few things (if you haven't already).

Look at the covers. Do they look professional? If you saw one on the front table and B&N would it catch your eye? Past performance can indicate future results in this way.

Check out the books on Amazon. What are their sales ranks? Sales ranks aren't an exact science, but could indicate what effort (if any) the publisher is willing to put into marketing and publicity. I've heard than any sales rank over one million indicates a book that has sold very, very few copies.

Does the Amazon page for any of the books have a Look Inside feature? If so, give a few of them a read to see what the editing, layout, etc. looks like in the final product.

Do any of the other authors have websites or blogs? Check them out to see what they are saying about the publisher, if anything. I don't think you'd be out of line to contact some of the authors and exchange a few emails if they are willing.

Anyway, that's the advice I've been given as a start. I haven't looked for a publisher in eons, but that's (in addition to BR&BC, which you said they don't have an entry in) where I would start.
 

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Great advice from mrsmig. I work in an industry that is extremely cash heavy and my company handles large volumes of money despite only modest profits. "NET" is an extremely important word. It's what separates $100k in profit and an operating loss on a balance sheet.
 

R.A. Lundberg

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One thing any author should have is access to a good intellectual properties attorney. I don't care if you have an agent or not, before you sign anything you should be having your IP attorney give it the once over. So many authors have been screwed over with bad contracts that a simple $50 or $100 fee would have detected and stopped cold. This is a business, and you can't go wrong treating it like one.
 

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One thing any author should have is access to a good intellectual properties attorney. I don't care if you have an agent or not, before you sign anything you should be having your IP attorney give it the once over. So many authors have been screwed over with bad contracts that a simple $50 or $100 fee would have detected and stopped cold. This is a business, and you can't go wrong treating it like one.

A good agent will tell you if your contract is good or not, and will do so much more for you besides.

An IP lawyer will only tell you about the legal issues in your contract. He or she won't negotiate that contract, or work out how it might affect you, or show you how it could be improved.

Give me a good agent any day.
 

R.A. Lundberg

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Give me a good agent any day.

Sure, a good agent, no question. A good agent would do all those things. Two problems with that idea, unfortunately. It presupposes that A) you have an agent, which seems to be harder to achieve by the day, and B) that you have a GOOD agent. In the state of New York there are exactly no standards of any kind you are required to meet to call yourself a literary agent. None. Therefore, your "agent" might know exactly zero about contract law, IP Law, or just about anything else having to do with the legal (or financial) side of being your advocate. People struggle for literally years trying to get agented, and once agented, might be and frequently are willing to overlook a lot in order to stay agented, especially the type who want nothing to do with the actual business side of writing. So many people have given up trying to get agented and just decided to go it unrepresented that I thought that the recommendation might be called for. Hey, it's better than flying blind!

Look, in this day and age, "published" authors without agents outnumber the ones who have agents. If you're published thru any means other than trad publishing, then it behooves you to learn the actual business side of this business. You need to learn marketing, for certain, even IF you have an agent. You need to learn the financial side, at least enough to have an intelligent conversation with your accountant. You need to learn enough about literary contracts to know at least what the terms mean, and where to go to find out more.

You cannot run a business without knowing something about business. This IS a business. If you don't treat it as one, you will get absolutely screwed. Some very talented authors have really been taken to the cleaners by crappy contracts. A good agent can prevent that, but ultimately YOU are the one signing the contract, and not knowing what you are signing is the height of folly in business, any business, period, full stop.
 

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People struggle for literally years trying to get agented, and once agented, might be and frequently are willing to overlook a lot in order to stay agented, especially the type who want nothing to do with the actual business side of writing.

My advice is always the same: don't accept an agent just because they're an agent. Do your due diligence, and on top of that, pay attention to your instincts. You risk much more career damage by taking a bad agent than by waiting for a good one, or proceeding on your own.

(Yeah, I wouldn't have listened to that advice either, but it's the truth.)

So many people have given up trying to get agented and just decided to go it unrepresented that I thought that the recommendation might be called for. Hey, it's better than flying blind!

FWIW I had a lawyer read over everything before I signed it. Discovered later one massive issue with one of my contracts - I don't really expect it'll ever bite me, given the parties involved, but it still makes me uncomfortable, because there it is in a legal document with my signature on it.

A lawyer is not a bad idea, but it's not a substitute for someone with experience in publishing. If you don't have an agent, there are other resources you can lean on to see if you're signing something standard or not (which is what an IP lawyer can't tell you).
 

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One thing any author should have is access to a good intellectual properties attorney. I don't care if you have an agent or not, before you sign anything you should be having your IP attorney give it the once over. So many authors have been screwed over with bad contracts that a simple $50 or $100 fee would have detected and stopped cold. This is a business, and you can't go wrong treating it like one.

A good agent will tell you if your contract is good or not, and will do so much more for you besides.

An IP lawyer will only tell you about the legal issues in your contract. He or she won't negotiate that contract, or work out how it might affect you, or show you how it could be improved.

Give me a good agent any day.


Sure, a good agent, no question. A good agent would do all those things. Two problems with that idea, unfortunately. It presupposes that A) you have an agent, which seems to be harder to achieve by the day, and B) that you have a GOOD agent.

I don't think it's any harder for a solid, commercial writer to get an agent now than it was twenty years ago. It only seems like it is because there are more people trying to do it.

As for signing with an agent who isn't a good agent, isn't that why people should do their homework before submitting?

In the state of New York there are exactly no standards of any kind you are required to meet to call yourself a literary agent. None. Therefore, your "agent" might know exactly zero about contract law, IP Law, or just about anything else having to do with the legal (or financial) side of being your advocate.

There aren't any minimum standards in London either, or anywhere else that I'm aware of. Which, again, is partly why writers should do some solid research prior to submissions.

It's pretty easy to filter out the really bad from the really good. What's harder is knowing which of the really good agents are a good match for you. Which is why you should always talk to them, and preferably meet up with them, prior to accepting an offer of submission.

People struggle for literally years trying to get agented, and once agented, might be and frequently are willing to overlook a lot in order to stay agented, especially the type who want nothing to do with the actual business side of writing.

If writers are willing to stay with an agent they don't get on with, or who doesn't treat their work with the respect it deserves, then they are fooling themselves. It's not a good policy.

So many people have given up trying to get agented and just decided to go it unrepresented that I thought that the recommendation might be called for. Hey, it's better than flying blind!

It might be--I'm not convinced--but even so, writers are still better off working with a good agent than with an IP lawyer.

Look, in this day and age, "published" authors without agents outnumber the ones who have agents. If you're published thru any means other than trad publishing,

*trade* publishing

then it behooves you to learn the actual business side of this business. You need to learn marketing, for certain, even IF you have an agent. You need to learn the financial side, at least enough to have an intelligent conversation with your accountant. You need to learn enough about literary contracts to know at least what the terms mean, and where to go to find out more.

You cannot run a business without knowing something about business. This IS a business. If you don't treat it as one, you will get absolutely screwed. Some very talented authors have really been taken to the cleaners by crappy contracts. A good agent can prevent that, but ultimately YOU are the one signing the contract, and not knowing what you are signing is the height of folly in business, any business, period, full stop.

Good agents go through contracts with their author-clients. It's standard procedure.

I'm not sure how any of what you've said disproves anything I said, but yes. Writers should learn about publishing if they want to do well. Surely that's one of the basic rules?
 

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says in the covering letter: "we cover all costs of book production, marketing, and distribution, and it comes with 20% royalties for the author."

No. 20% is below standard, particularly with an indie publisher. Far better off just self-publishing at the point, but most likely you should just find a better publisher.
 

veinglory

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There is more to the value of a publisher than royalty %, and without knowing formats or what the true % of cover would be--no way to say if that is above of below standard. As a true cover % of offset paperback, it would be huge--as a net of everything for ebooks, small.