Question about a college student

Yeah, I've never heard of anyone actually getting credit for AP classes. I'm sure it probably happens someplace but... I got nothing for any of 'em; I know kids now with like seven APs they have 4s and 5s in who got nothing for them...

I was able to test out of a bunch of reqs once I got on campus but that was school-specific testing that opted out of specific gen-ed reqs.

ETA: Oh, not true -- I recall a kid who got a 5 on the AP Latin who was able to opt out of the first year of the classical language requirement at an Ivy, though I think he had to take Latin 2? I did not try AP Latin, heh. Four years of regular Latin and all I can remember is how to discuss toga shopping.

davidjgalloway said:

With the caveat that many schools restrict the total number of AP credits you can apply to your degree and may also restrict how they are used. For instance, we do not allow them to satisfy general education credits and their value in a given major is subject to the discretion of that department. We restrict to 7 courses, which is less than one year and so you wouldn't be able to shave two years off of the normal four in that system.

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This is good information, but with taking interim and summer classes (coupled with course-overloading), it is possible for them to finish the degree in two years.

Helix said:

My emphasis. No. A second, third or nth bachelor's degree is an undergraduate degree.

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Thanks for the clarification on the Australia Ph.D. system. Here in the U.S., some schools count master's level work in their Ph.D. requirements. Other schools, like the University of Denver (Colorado, USA), does not allow comparative coursework to be substituted (in a master's program) if the classes were completed from a conferred degree program. From your description, it appears all Australian universities allow pre-Ph.D. work to count (and require less time to complete the program).

I think the second bachelor being postgraduate is subjective. It is earned after one graduates from an undergraduate program. Technically, the student is an undergraduate student, but is doing the work "postgraduate" to his first degree.

Albedo said:

I've honestly got no idea where an MBBS fits in that framework. (Probably Bachelor's. It's always seemed a bit unfair I get to call myself 'Dr' with a measly Bachelor's degree, lol.)

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Albedo
MBChB/MBBS is counted as a double bachelor degree.
Re. your degree becoming MD - Surely, if it's just a name change, it should still be an undergraduate degree as you haven't graduated yet? Weird. I lament Australia Americanizing its education Although, you guys do already have private medical schools.

What confuses me is that you can become a medical doctor (MD) in America by doing a osteopaths undergrad... wtf, right? In British/Aus/NZ systems, osteopathic treatment is alternative and isn't taught in academic universities.

P.K. Torrens said:

What confuses me is that you can become a medical doctor (MD) in America by doing a chiropractor undergrad... wtf, right? In British/Aus/NZ systems, chiropractic treatment is alternative and isn't taught in academic universities.

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In America, we have a distinction of medical doctors called D.O. (Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine). These doctors do adjustments as well as traditional M.D. work. I prefer these over M.D.s, because I can get something popped back in place (and they have the knowledge to see and correct instead of offering pain killers and physical therapy for weeks on end).

Enlightened said:

In America, we have a distinction of medical doctors called D.O. (Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine). These doctors do adjustments as well as traditional M.D. work. I prefer these over M.D.s, because I can get something popped back in place (and they have the knowledge to see and correct instead of offering pain killers and physical therapy for weeks on end).

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Oops, sorry. I quoted chiropractic instead of osteopathy... I get the two muddled. My bad.

Yep. The problem is that spinal manipulation is controversial, scientifically.

Does it provide relief? Yes. Undoubtedly.

However, the biological model osteopathy provides is baloney. Manipulation does not reduce subluxation of vertebrae but *probably* compresses sensory nerves, stopping their conduction for weeks to months... until you need them squished again. Questions regarding long-term safety of manipulation have not been adequately answered.

P.K. Torrens said:

Albedo
MBChB/MBBS is counted as a double bachelor degree.
Re. your degree becoming MD - Surely, if it's just a name change, it should still be an undergraduate degree as you haven't graduated yet? Weird. I lament Australia Americanizing its education Although, you guys do already have private medical schools.

What confuses me is that you can become a medical doctor (MD) in America by doing a chiropractor undergrad... wtf, right? In British/Aus/NZ systems, chiropractic treatment is alternative and isn't taught in academic universities.

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Noooo, no you can't. I've never heard of a chiropractor undergrad, though this may be a miscommunication between UK/US...

In the US, undergrad would be pre-med or majoring in biology or the like and graduate with a bachelor's degree. Then a prospective MD would go to medical school for four years (you graduate with an MD), then have a year of internship (closely overseen, rotating through specialties in a hospital setting) and usually three years of residency (usually targeting the specialty the person is interested in).

A prospective chiropractor goes to chiropractic college after undergrad, to get a DC -- the whole thing is three years to completion, not seven or eight, like a year or so of coursework and then practice.

Some schools don't require a full BS to apply to chiropractic schools; I've never heard of that for med schools. I believe pretty much all med schools require a BS.

Veterinary School btw, in the U.S., is harder to get into than med school (there are fewer, and it's arguably harder, education-wise, as it's the same thing but for multiple species) and is just like med school -- you need a BS (plus demonstrated experience working with animals), then vet school is four years, plus a year of internship, then residency.

Both med and vet school have extensive boards (comprehensive exams that you have to take between internship and residency -- they're like two full days each part, come in two parts Boards I and II, people take entire months off to study following their internships) that are the path to licensure.

And I won't even get into the quackery that osteopathy proclaims in areas such as infectious disease. For example, they associate infections with spinal misalignment, despite there being absolutely no scientific evidence for that.

cornflake said:

Noooo, no you can't. I've never heard of a chiropractor undergrad, though this may be a miscommunication between UK/US...

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My bad. I meant osteopathy not chiropractic.

P.K. Torrens said:

My bad. I meant osteopathy not chiropractic.

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Yah, sorry, I saw that after I'd typed the whole thing, heh.

You still have to go to med school to be an osteopath I think? You don't get an MD without med school.

P.K. Torrens said:

However, the biological model osteopathy provides is baloney. Manipulation does not reduce subluxation of vertebrae but *probably* compresses sensory nerves, stopping its conduction for weeks to months... until you need it compressed again. Questions regarding long-term safety of manipulation have not been adequately answered.

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Abuse of adjustments is certainly a bad thing (e.g. Alannah Myles). Your body's atlas (horizontal line between shoulders and vertical spinal column) can and does get out of alignment. For me, I used to sling a heavy backpack over one shoulder. My thoracic vertebrate went out of alignment because of it. I had some adjustments to pop it back in place from my D.O.

I don't do long-term adjustments, so I cannot comment on any ill-effects.

I tried to figure out the osteopath thing. Apparently yes, it's simply a medical specialty, same as psychiatry. You need a BS, then four years of medical school, etc., and then you specialize in osteopathy.

From the Assn of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine page

Today, more than 20 percent of medical students in the United States are training to be osteopathic physicians.

Osteopathic physicians can choose any specialty, prescribe drugs, perform surgeries, and practice medicine anywhere in the United States.

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Legally, to be able to do those things, you must have an MD from an accredited school, internship, and a license which requires the accredited degree and passing of licensing tests and etc.

cornflake said:

Legally, to be able to do those things, you must have an MD from an accredited school, internship, and a license which requires the accredited degree and passing of licensing tests and etc.

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Yes. My current D.O. had his M.D. before he went back and earned the D.O.

cornflake said:

I tried to figure out the osteopath thing. Apparently yes, it's simply a medical specialty, same as psychiatry. You need a BS, then four years of medical school, etc., and then you specialize in osteopathy.

From the Assn of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine page



Legally, to be able to do those things, you must have an MD from an accredited school, internship, and a license which requires the accredited degree and passing of licensing tests and etc.

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Truly gob-smacking.

Enlightened said:

Thanks for the clarification on the Australia Ph.D. system. Here in the U.S., some schools count master's level work in their Ph.D. requirements. Other schools, like the University of Denver (Colorado, USA), does not allow comparative coursework to be substituted (in a master's program) if the classes were completed from a conferred degree program. From your description, it appears all Australian universities allow pre-Ph.D. work to count (and require less time to complete the program).

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It counts only if it of is a sufficiently high level. Honours is a complete degree in itself. It's not necessarily in the same topic as the PhD and is treated as a year of research training. This means there's much less coursework in a PhD program.

When converting from a Master's degree to a PhD, the time already spent on research might be -- but isn't always -- counted towards the PhD.

Not so long ago, doctoral students were allowed to take as long as they liked to complete their degree. Now there's a minimum and maximum time for completion. (I took 3.5 years.)

Enlightened said:

I think the second bachelor being postgraduate is subjective. It is earned after one graduates from an undergraduate program. Technically, the student is an undergraduate student, but is doing the work "postgraduate" to his first degree.

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The degree is undergraduate. Presumably, the student is doing that degree for the first time.

I graduated high school at 17, went to college at 18, three years later had a BA, and two years after that an MA, graduating at 23. A PhD was deferred. Life intruded. Now I'm a lot older and have 3/4 of another MA in another field altogether, probably won't bother to finish that one, and most likely will never pursue that PhD. For what it's worth, that's how the timing worked out.

My experience in the UK a few (ahem) years ago was a 3 year first degree course with upper second class degree, straight onto PhD research which was funded for 3 years. The first year writeup was considered a masters thesis. I wrote up my PhD thesis in the last few months on funding while doing labwork. It is generally a good idea to writeup before starting your post-doc/new job. Having stayed in touch with the system as I've been industrial superviser for PhD students, I can say not much has changed except that most undergrad chemistry courses now are 4 yrs, some of which end with a MChem, some PhDs are now funded for 4 yrs.