Age of Consent

konstantineblacke · May 6, 2018

I am writing a Victorian era-like (around 1850) supernatural, coming of age, action, adventure, LGBT, story which has a little bit of erotica, but not the mechanical 'in and out' stuff. I'm pretty sure the age of consent was 14 for boys (even though there is no sex) at the time, but my question is: for a 'modern' audience, where some things can get erotic in a story, would it be more appropriate to have the main character of a more reasonable age we would be used to, say 18? As I said it's a 'coming out/coming of age/magical coming of age/some nudity story and my character does get himself involved in some 'saucy' situations (as he's adopted by a brothel madam). Thoughts please?

Maryn · May 7, 2018

My understanding is that if the work is sold as erotic fiction, all sexually active characters must be 18, without regard to the legal age of consent in the historical period in which the book is set.

So the first question to ask is whether, once this book is sold, any booksellers might shelve it in with the erotic fiction. Yes, it's supernatual and action-adventure and historical and more, but you can't control where it's placed for sale.

The second issue is whether there's any reason to risk shooting yourself in the foot, alienating potential readers or even booksellers by placing underage characters in sexual situations. Does any aspect of the plot require your boy to behave and think like a child rather than a teen? Then yes, leave him young. You don't want to damage the plausibility you've established. But if there's nothing in the story that needs him to be a kid, you can sidestep a whole lot of issues by making him 18.

And of course you can have saucy situations before his 18th birthday, and more graphic after he comes of age, if the plot allows it.

Be mindful that if there's no possibility of your book being labeled as erotic fiction of any kind, you actually have more latitude. George R.R. Martin's younger generation in Game of Thrones is around twelve to fourteen at the outset, teetering on the verge of sexual activity. They were aged up for the HBO series.

ironmikezero · May 7, 2018

Always remember that no matter the laws/customs of the era in which your tale is set, it will be the laws/customs of the here and now by which your tale will be judged (and by extension/association so will the author).

veinglory · May 7, 2018

Specifically whether it contravenes US obscenity laws, and a genre erotic book with sex scenes including minors is in danger of doing so.

autumnleaf · May 7, 2018

I would say that if it's a "coming of age" story, you need to make the character the age that makes most sense. Personally, I would go with the younger boy for a story in a Victorian-style society. An 18 year old, unless he had lead a sheltered life (and a boy raised by a brothel madam probably doesn't fall into that category), would show a different level of maturity and would be a less likely subject for a "coming of age".
Some readers might be alienated by a 14-year-old boy placed in sexual situations (although the fact that there's no "in and out" might mitigate that). Other readers might be alienated by an 18-year-old boy acting too immaturely. Not everyone will like your book either way, so you need to work with what's best for you and your story.
Unless it's erotica (designed to turn the reader on), I don't think that age-of-consent laws are an issue (if your character were living in the modern-day UK it would be 16 anyway, not 18).

konstantineblacke · May 7, 2018

veinglory said:
Specifically whether it contravenes US obscenity laws, and a genre erotic book with sex scenes including minors is in danger of doing so.

Thanks. There is no sex with minors in the story, no sex at all in that way in fact. Just sexy/saucy situations of the main character, because of the situation he finds himself in. Perhaps I have misused the word 'erotica' in my question

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ironmikezero said:
Always remember that no matter the laws/customs of the era in which your tale is set, it will be the laws/customs of the here and now by which your tale will be judged (and by extension/association so will the author).

That is always my concern which is why I tread carefully.

konstantineblacke · May 7, 2018

autumnleaf said:
I would say that if it's a "coming of age" story, you need to make the character the age that makes most sense. Personally, I would go with the younger boy for a story in a Victorian-style society. An 18 year old, unless he had lead a sheltered life (and a boy raised by a brothel madam probably doesn't fall into that category), would show a different level of maturity and would be a less likely subject for a "coming of age".
Some readers might be alienated by a 14-year-old boy placed in sexual situations (although the fact that there's no "in and out" might mitigate that). Other readers might be alienated by an 18-year-old boy acting too immaturely. Not everyone will like your book either way, so you need to work with what's best for you and your story.
Unless it's erotica (designed to turn the reader on), I don't think that age-of-consent laws are an issue (if your character were living in the modern-day UK it would be 16 anyway, not 18).

This is exactly my thinking.

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Maryn said:
My understanding is that if the work is sold as erotic fiction, all sexually active characters must be 18, without regard to the legal age of consent in the historical period in which the book is set.

So the first question to ask is whether, once this book is sold, any booksellers might shelve it in with the erotic fiction. Yes, it's supernatual and action-adventure and historical and more, but you can't control where it's placed for sale.

The second issue is whether there's any reason to risk shooting yourself in the foot, alienating potential readers or even booksellers by placing underage characters in sexual situations. Does any aspect of the plot require your boy to behave and think like a child rather than a teen? Then yes, leave him young. You don't want to damage the plausibility you've established. But if there's nothing in the story that needs him to be a kid, you can sidestep a whole lot of issues by making him 18.

And of course you can have saucy situations before his 18th birthday, and more graphic after he comes of age, if the plot allows it.

Be mindful that if there's no possibility of your book being labeled as erotic fiction of any kind, you actually have more latitude. George R.R. Martin's younger generation in Game of Thrones is around twelve to fourteen at the outset, teetering on the verge of sexual activity. They were aged up for the HBO series.

Thank you. Food for thought

konstantineblacke · May 7, 2018

Thanks everyone. The magical system that I have in my story has consequences that means those with the magical ability cannot be 'intimate' with others in a physical way to keep their magic. That's not to mean they can't do other things of course, but there is no intimate touching (I've only allowed kissing and hand holding). Of course this also means two people with the magic can use their magic to be intimate (without physical touch) as the magic is an extension of their senses. My hero, left an orphan after his parent's murder, is taken in by a brothel madam and as such, knowing he has the magic, decides to earn his keep by dancing for clients. In the mean time he's trying to find his parents killer. As he is certain its someone who frequents the brothel who is the killer. I hope that clarifies things a little. But yeah, perhaps the word 'erotic' might be too harsh. Besides, I think I will leave him at 18, because he is rather an intelligent, mature character and really there is no need for him to be deemed younger as he doesn't act that way. Thanks for all your help everyone. Really helped me make my decision.

The Black Prince · May 8, 2018

I was confronted with a similar question in my recently released story set in the C11.

The main character at the start of the story is nearly 15 and is very erotic in his thinking (as any nearly 15 yo boy would be) and gets involved with a young woman of approx. his age (the other main character). I was aware, when writing the story, that a 14 yo second son of a minor noble in the C11 would have been both sexually mature and as active as he chose to be...but I put him in a situation where he only wanted sex with the main female.

The first time a sex scene is described (not blow by blow by any means) the main character is nearly 18. The age of consent is 16 in Australia so I had that very much in mind despite the reality of the C11.

The historical purist in me rails against such limits but better safe than sorry. The book's been in the shops for six months and no-one has complained yet.

konstantineblacke · May 8, 2018

The Black Prince said:
I was confronted with a similar question in my recently released story set in the C11.

The main character at the start of the story is nearly 15 and is very erotic in his thinking (as any nearly 15 yo boy would be) and gets involved with a young woman of approx. his age (the other main character). I was aware, when writing the story, that a 14 yo second son of a minor noble in the C11 would have been both sexually mature and as active as he chose to be...but I put him in a situation where he only wanted sex with the main female.

The first time a sex scene is described (not blow by blow by any means) the main character is nearly 18. The age of consent is 16 in Australia so I had that very much in mind despite the reality of the C11.

The historical purist in me rails against such limits but better safe than sorry. The book's been in the shops for six months and no-one has complained yet.

That's really good to know, thank you.

angeliz2k · May 8, 2018

I don't think age-of-consent-laws really have much to do with how old your characters *should* or *have to* be, especially in a historical (or pseudo-historical) context. You're not going to get in trouble (erotica, I guess, is another story, but I don't much about that!). It's really just readers who might get squicky.

In historical contexts, it's very common for younger characters to be sexually active because that was the reality (it, uh, still is, really . . .). I'm thinking of Outlander, where the character Fergus is young but very knowledgeable about sexual matters at a very young age because he was raised in a brothel. Obviously, that's a disturbing circumstance, but as far as I know, no one cried foul. In my own story, a girl is coerced into marriage at 16. There are no sex scenes, but you know it happens.

And quite honestly, it was (is? *sigh*) usually younger boys (younger than 18) who were most sought after in the kind of place you're talking about . . . (sorry to be gross).

konstantineblacke · May 8, 2018

angeliz2k said:
I don't think age-of-consent-laws really have much to do with how old your characters *should* or *have to* be, especially in a historical (or pseudo-historical) context. You're not going to get in trouble (erotica, I guess, is another story, but I don't much about that!). It's really just readers who might get squicky.

In historical contexts, it's very common for younger characters to be sexually active because that was the reality (it, uh, still is, really . . .). I'm thinking of Outlander, where the character Fergus is young but very knowledgeable about sexual matters at a very young age because he was raised in a brothel. Obviously, that's a disturbing circumstance, but as far as I know, no one cried foul. In my own story, a girl is coerced into marriage at 16. There are no sex scenes, but you know it happens.

And quite honestly, it was (is? *sigh*) usually younger boys (younger than 18) who were most sought after in the kind of place you're talking about . . . (sorry to be gross).

This is really a great answer and has really been the backbone of my thinking. Thank you. (and yes, being a boy, my main character is sought after by the clientele of the brothel as my research has pretty much come up with what you've said.) Thank you.

Sonsofthepharaohs · May 9, 2018

My novel is set in ancient Egypt. My main (male) character is 28, and his love interest (a slave girl) is 16. There are two sex scenes between them which, while not overly long or graphic, are certainly not 'fade to black'.

The book was shopped to all major publishers in the UK, and while it didn't find a home (apparently Egypt is dead and buried in the HF genre right now), not one single editor took issue with the ages of the couple (possibly because, as aforementioned, the age of consent in the UK is 16, but also possibly because it's historical fiction, not erotica).

Not sure that makes any difference to you, as you seem to have made the decision based on sound reasoning, but thought I'd mention it

konstantineblacke · May 9, 2018

Kallithrix said:
My novel is set in ancient Egypt. My main (male) character is 28, and his love interest (a slave girl) is 16. There are two sex scenes between them which, while not overly long or graphic, are certainly not 'fade to black'.

The book was shopped to all major publishers in the UK, and while it didn't find a home (apparently Egypt is dead and buried in the HF genre right now), not one single editor took issue with the ages of the couple (possibly because, as aforementioned, the age of consent in the UK is 16, but also possibly because it's historical fiction, not erotica).

Not sure that makes any difference to you, as you seem to have made the decision based on sound reasoning, but thought I'd mention it

Yes, this is the way I am leaning, so I have sort of compromised the age of my characters (both will now be 16). Thank you for your answer. Ancient Egypt not fashionable? I loved reading Egyptian themed books.

The Black Prince · May 9, 2018

I never get sick of ancient (or modern) Egyptian novels...even though the last two or three I read were all appallingly bad.

I'll always get sucked in if I'm in an airport bookstore.

konstantineblacke · May 10, 2018

The Black Prince said:
I never get sick of ancient (or modern) Egyptian novels...even though the last two or three I read were all appallingly bad.

I'll always get sucked in if I'm in an airport bookstore.

Here here!

gothicangel · May 13, 2018

If you haven't, I recommend you read some Sarah Waters novels (especially Tipping The Velvet and Affinity). This is what she did, 'queering' the hetero normtive narrative of Victorian England.

konstantineblacke · May 13, 2018

gothicangel said:
If you haven't, I recommend you read some Sarah Waters novels (especially Tipping The Velvet and Affinity). This is what she did, 'queering' the hetero normtive narrative of Victorian England.

Thank you for the suggestion. I will look into it

WGough · May 30, 2018

The Black Prince said:
I was confronted with a similar question in my recently released story set in the C11.

The main character at the start of the story is nearly 15 and is very erotic in his thinking (as any nearly 15 yo boy would be) and gets involved with a young woman of approx. his age (the other main character). I was aware, when writing the story, that a 14 yo second son of a minor noble in the C11 would have been both sexually mature and as active as he chose to be...but I put him in a situation where he only wanted sex with the main female.

The first time a sex scene is described (not blow by blow by any means) the main character is nearly 18. The age of consent is 16 in Australia so I had that very much in mind despite the reality of the C11.

The historical purist in me rails against such limits but better safe than sorry. The book's been in the shops for six months and no-one has complained yet.

Struggled with the same thing writing my 14th century novel. MC was a boy of 14 involved with a boy of 15. Nothing graphic, innuendo, fade-to-black until he reached 17, but was afraid of alienating readers, so upped their ages. Not worth the risk for me, as a first time novelist. Sorry if someone has already mentioned it, but I believe the age of consent in the US varies by state (16-18), which complicates my thinking further. I'm with The Black Prince. It irks me to tears to have to age them up, but better safe than sorry.

konstantineblacke · May 31, 2018

WGough said:
Struggled with the same thing writing my 14th century novel. MC was a boy of 14 involved with a boy of 15. Nothing graphic, innuendo, fade-to-black until he reached 17, but was afraid of alienating readers, so upped their ages. Not worth the risk for me, as a first time novelist. Sorry if someone has already mentioned it, but I believe the age of consent in the US varies by state (16-18), which complicates my thinking further. I'm with The Black Prince. It irks me to tears to have to age them up, but better safe than sorry.

Agreed. I aged them up to 16, then as they get more involved, will be 17/18 (but as I've written it, all those types of scenes are more about feelings and not in and out graphics of it). Thanks for your words

autumnleaf · May 31, 2018

My thinking is that historical fiction frequently involves behavior that is morally problematic: ethnic cleansing, slavery, public executions, misogyny, racism, homophobia, etc. Portrayal of such behavior does not indicate approval of it.

konstantineblacke · May 31, 2018

autumnleaf said:
My thinking is that historical fiction frequently involves behavior that is morally problematic: ethnic cleansing, slavery, public executions, misogyny, racism, homophobia, etc. Portrayal of such behavior does not indicate approval of it.

Well said!

angeliz2k · May 31, 2018

autumnleaf said:
My thinking is that historical fiction frequently involves behavior that is morally problematic: ethnic cleansing, slavery, public executions, misogyny, racism, homophobia, etc. Portrayal of such behavior does not indicate approval of it.

Agreed. For that matter, contemporary fiction involves behavior that isn't what might be considered "ideal". But since when are we writing "ideal" characters?

WGough · May 31, 2018

autumnleaf said:
My thinking is that historical fiction frequently involves behavior that is morally problematic: ethnic cleansing, slavery, public executions, misogyny, racism, homophobia, etc. Portrayal of such behavior does not indicate approval of it.

Yes! Folks in the 14th century, according to my research, were extremely violent, cruel to animals, children, and the disabled. Cockfighting, bear-baiting, bull-baiting, etc. Parents who regularly beat their children were the ideal. I can't make myself write any of that. As a first time novelist, I haven't reached the point where I can distance my emotional self from those images, and I'm not ready to write about that sort of thing as part of the world building. But I fear glossing over those aspects, as tempting as it is, would rob the book of a certain depth. I'm hoping by the third draft, I'll have the fortitude to briefly, vaguely drop in some of the more distasteful everyday practices. Granted, there is plenty of historical fiction that does leave out those bits. Coward, vacillating wildly.

autumnleaf · Jun 1, 2018

WGough said:
Yes! Folks in the 14th century, according to my research, were extremely violent, cruel to animals, children, and the disabled. Cockfighting, bear-baiting, bull-baiting, etc. Parents who regularly beat their children were the ideal. I can't make myself write any of that. As a first time novelist, I haven't reached the point where I can distance my emotional self from those images, and I'm not ready to write about that sort of thing as part of the world building. But I fear glossing over those aspects, as tempting as it is, would rob the book of a certain depth. I'm hoping by the third draft, I'll have the fortitude to briefly, vaguely drop in some of the more distasteful everyday practices. Granted, there is plenty of historical fiction that does leave out those bits. Coward, vacillating wildly.

One of the hardest aspects of writing about historical people is trying to get into their mindset. So, as you say, it was considered proper to beat your children. A parent who didn't physically punish a misbehaving child would be seen as neglectful, much as we would view a parent who lets their child throw tantrums in a restaurant without removing him. That being said, there would be a difference between a father who reluctantly took up the switch when his child was seriously misbehaving, and another father who regularly beats his son black and blue for the most minor offences. The first is a dutiful man doing what he sees as the best for his child; even though we moderns might disapprove of his actions, we can still see him as a sympathetic character. The second is a sadist using society's standards as an excuse for his own cruelty; most readers would see him as a villain, no matter what time he lived in.

I once read a book set in the 18th century where a teenage girl was caught canoodling with the wrong man. Her father was obviously distressed by this -- a Bad Reputation could spell disaster for the daughter and the whole family. He yelled at her a lot, and I kept expecting him to at least threaten to hit her, but he never did, and that seemed odd to me. I hope people don't imagine now that I approve of beating up children (I don't! Please don't beat your children! If you are feeling stressed and tempted to do so, there are help lines you can call!) But it seemed anachronistic that the father seemed not to even consider slapping her down, as most people in his society would have expected him to do.

Age of Consent

konstantineblacke

Maryn

At Sea

ironmikezero

practical experience, FTW

veinglory

volitare nequeo

autumnleaf

practical experience, FTW

konstantineblacke

konstantineblacke

konstantineblacke

The Black Prince

konstantineblacke

angeliz2k

never mind the shorty

konstantineblacke

Sonsofthepharaohs

Still writing the ancient Egyptian tetralogy

konstantineblacke

The Black Prince

konstantineblacke

gothicangel

Toughen up.

konstantineblacke

WGough

konstantineblacke

autumnleaf

practical experience, FTW

konstantineblacke

angeliz2k

never mind the shorty

WGough

autumnleaf

practical experience, FTW