Hi! I've recently started attempting to write in close third person. One thing I'm wondering, though, is oif description of other characters and surroundings have to be from their POV.
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Close Third Person
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I think I know what you are asking at here, Questioner.
If you are writing from the POV of character A, you can mention anything which character A is either already aware of, or becomes aware of through his senses.
If you are in the POV of character A, and A sees character B and notices anything special about them, these things can be mentioned because they can be seen through the imaginary POV camera on character A's shoulder. You can only mention what the camera sees - and remember, nobody has eyes in the back of their head unless they're an alien!
If character A is not already aware of something it CANNOT be mentioned until he becomes aware of it through his senses. There could be a giant spider walking behind A but you cannot mention it until he becomes aware of it, maybe by his hearing a twig crack and turning round, or because one of his pals points behind him and yells, "A spider! Run, run!"
It's best to remain in a chosen POV for as long as possible, and NOT to rapidly switch from one POV to another. If you want to change to another POV and have good reason to do so, simplest way is to start a new Chapter.
Any help?
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Not sure what you mean here, Questioner.
If you are writing from the POV of character A, you can mention anything which character A is either already aware of, or becomes aware of through his senses.
If you are in the POV of character A, and A sees character B and notices anything special about them, these things can be mentioned because they can be seen through the imaginary POV camera on character A's shoulder. You can only mention what the camera sees - and remember, nobody has eyes in the back of their head unless they're an alien!
If character A is not already aware of something it CANNOT be mentioned until he becomes aware of it through his senses. There could be a giant spider walking behind A but you cannot mention it until he becomes aware of it, maybe by his hearing a twig crack and turning round, or because one of his pals points behind him and yells, "A spider! Run, run!"
It's best to remain in a chosen POV for as long as possible, and NOT to rapidly switch from one POV to another. If you want to change to another POV and have good reason to do so, simplest way is to start a new Chapter.
Any help?
What I meant was if you need to write description from how the POV-character perceievs it. I just want to make sure so that I don't go too deep.
Not sure what you mean by 'sure I don't go too deep'. It's impossible to go 'too deep' - whatever that means. 
Don't confuse yourself with gobbledygook.
Write what the POV character sees and how he perceives it - what is seen through the camera lens - as he interprets it.
That what you mean?
Read novels of the type you wish to write and see how others do it.
Don't confuse yourself with gobbledygook. Write what the POV character sees and how he perceives it - what is seen through the camera lens - as he interprets it.
That what you mean?
Read novels of the type you wish to write and see how others do it.
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Writing third person- close is just like first person except:
1. You're using he/she instead of I
2. When you are quoting a character's thought in third you italicize it. But that's only for "quoted" thoughts which would be written with I anyway.
Like Buffy said... there is no "too deep." Take a look at a few third person-close books, and you'll see what I mean.
1. You're using he/she instead of I
2. When you are quoting a character's thought in third you italicize it. But that's only for "quoted" thoughts which would be written with I anyway.
Like Buffy said... there is no "too deep." Take a look at a few third person-close books, and you'll see what I mean.
Close third is all about being deep in a character's POV, but in 3rd person instead of 1st. What is it you're trying to avoid, Questioner?
Oh, then, yes, you've got it. Everything comes through the POV character's perception. Different POV characters might perceive different things, and the character might not know exactly what they're seeing but be able to give enough clues for the audience to know, but they're only going to describe what they see/hear/taste/smell/feel
When I write close 3rd the vocabulary and narrative patterns shift slightly as well depending on who the PoV character is. (Not always a drastic change, but sometimes it's more extreme.
Just in case this is what you were getting at, OP, or if someone else reading this is wondering: You don't have to frame the POV character's observations in a way such as "Jane saw that Sheila had red hair. Then Jane noticed an army of giant ants marching down the street." You can - and should - just say "Sheila had red hair" and "An army of giant ants marched down the street."
What you can't say is "Sheila had red hair, but didn't ever let anyone know that her natural hair color was blonde".
What you can't say is "Sheila had red hair, but didn't ever let anyone know that her natural hair color was blonde".
I wrote this paragraph this morning and thought to myself, "Dang, is this violating my close 3rd?"
Lindsay is the POV. His friend, Nate, is injured. I think I got away with it because I used the word 'perhaps' implying that Lindsay is interpreting Nate's closed eyes. We are still in Lindsay's head:
"Come on." Lindsay gripped the pillar above Nate’s head, using it to stand. “Let’s get you saddled.”
That stiffness was still holding Nate’s body hostage. Instead of responding, he closed his eyes, perhaps summoning up some last dregs of internal courage, or perhaps resting for a brief moment before he had to stand again. Finally Nate said, “Bring the horse to me?”
Still...this is toeing the line. I'll have to focus on this during editing and make a decision about the way I wrote this. Close 3rd is tricky, but it can be really effective. Hope this helps.
Lindsay is the POV. His friend, Nate, is injured. I think I got away with it because I used the word 'perhaps' implying that Lindsay is interpreting Nate's closed eyes. We are still in Lindsay's head:
"Come on." Lindsay gripped the pillar above Nate’s head, using it to stand. “Let’s get you saddled.”
That stiffness was still holding Nate’s body hostage. Instead of responding, he closed his eyes, perhaps summoning up some last dregs of internal courage, or perhaps resting for a brief moment before he had to stand again. Finally Nate said, “Bring the horse to me?”
Still...this is toeing the line. I'll have to focus on this during editing and make a decision about the way I wrote this. Close 3rd is tricky, but it can be really effective. Hope this helps.
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"Perhaps" definitely keeps it in her POV. A very picky reader might consider the sentence before that one a little out of her POV, but you could also argue that it's the sort of thing another person could infer.
Yeah, you've got a point. I'll def take a look at that sentence when I edit. I can absolutely rewrite that sentence to clearly come from Lindsay's POV instead of the ambiguous POV it's in now. Edits edits edits.
Just so you know
-- "toeing the line" doesn't mean what you're implying there. To "toe the line" means to conform to the rules. Maybe you meant "treading the line," which means you're close to crossing the line.At any rate, you're not. It looked fine to me, and even the sentence that's not qualifed by "perhaps" can be inferred to be her observation. The context keeps it all consistent and clear.
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All good advice: keep it in the eyes of the character. If you do this, then I think it will be effective and efficient.
The more I get used to the POV concept, the more certain sentences and phrases start to catch my eye as suspicious. As an example, something like this (from Sarah's POV):
Sarah smiled adoringly at her friend.
Is "adoringly" a little too much outside of Sarah's awareness? (FYI I generally try to use adverbs very sparingly, but I think this one works in the context of this particular scene)
Sarah smiled adoringly at her friend.
Is "adoringly" a little too much outside of Sarah's awareness? (FYI I generally try to use adverbs very sparingly, but I think this one works in the context of this particular scene)
To answer your question, ask yourself: can Sarah know that her smile is adoring? IMO, yes. OTOH, it might be better to show how Sarah knows that her smile is adoring (in this case, prolly by internal thoughts) rather than use the adverb. But you can, yes, because Sarah can feel the sensation of adoring the friend.
Contrast with something like, " A smile lit up Sarah's face." Here there's a description of what's happening to Sarah's face that would need to be perceived by an external person. Sarah knows she's smiling and can feel the joy, but she can't know that her face is actually "lit up" by it.
Contrast with something like, " A smile lit up Sarah's face." Here there's a description of what's happening to Sarah's face that would need to be perceived by an external person. Sarah knows she's smiling and can feel the joy, but she can't know that her face is actually "lit up" by it.
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I would add here that there's no need to do this in deep third (or first). All narration is the thoughts of the character so there's no need to switch to first person present in italics (all of which can be distracting to the reader) to give a thought.
The answer is indeed context. It all hinges on context and placing. By placing, I mean is it the opening line of a Chapter or buried in subsequent narrative.
If the 'adoringly' is descriptive of a deliberate action and Sarah has perhaps a known intent to deceive by her smile, that is one thing. If it's simply a device to convey to the reader that Sarah adores her friend- its presence is questionable and depends upon placing.
And if it's her friend, she would use her name -no? '... at her friend' is your comment, distancing, and makes your presence known as an intrusive narrator. Indeed, if the scene is clearly established, it may not even be necessary to mention at whom she is smiling. Important thing is- does the reader know why she is smiling.
The answer to questions based on snippets is rarely a simple 'yes' or 'no'.:snoopy
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IMO yes, unless she's aware she's smiling adoringly, and has a reason for being aware of it. The phrase "at her friend" is also problematic. That sounds like a narrator's explanatory tag, not something Sarah would be thinking.
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Thanks everyone. I was oblivious about POV over so many drafts that weeding out all the problems has proven to be quite a chore. Maybe something like this is better:
Sarah couldn't help but smile. The look of pure delight on Melissa's face filled her own heart with joy.
Sarah couldn't help but smile. The look of pure delight on Melissa's face filled her own heart with joy.
I agree. Most of us can make reasonable guesses at what other people are feeling. In fact, it would strike me as odd if a character never did so. As long as it can be seen as "Lindsey deduced that this is what Nathan felt," it's fine with me.