White Writer, Black Villain Protagonist? (take 2)

Simpson17866

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(My first thread asking this question was quickly sidetracked by discussion about the mechanics of the Urban Fantasy world. That thread has been moved to the SciFi/Fantasy forum, and I am re-doing this one as a clean slate to keep the focus on the most important question.)

My Urban Fantasy is about a group of three drug dealers turned bank robbers – the lead protagonist being a Black lesbian named Charlie, the secondary protagonist (and first-person peripheral narrator) being a straight white man named Alec, and the tertiary protagonist being a straight white woman named Amy – who discover the secret existence of the supernatural.

I realized recently that I haven't been as quick to ask for feedback on "Charlie as a Black villain" as I have been to ask for feedback on "Charlie as a lesbian villain" and on "Amy as a sexual-assault-surviving villain with PTSD," and I'm hoping that my asking for a second look now (having finished a first draft and having started editing, but not having sent it to any publishers) would be better late than never.

My understanding is that the three most important parts of making a potentially-stereotypical character – in this case, Charlie being a Black criminal – non-stereotypical are 1) emphasizing that there are other people who share the demographic, but not the trait, 2) emphasizing that there are other people who share the trait, but not the demographic, and 3) emphasizing that the character has more traits than just the one that's stereotypically applied to their demographic.

  1. The first Black person we see is a teller at the bank that Alec robs in chapter 1; in chapter 2, we see a Black man and woman taking care of each other after a bombing at a second bank; and in chapters 4/5, we see a Black security guard at a third bank who Alec manages to charm in chapter 4 with his silver tongue (and a non-zero amount of implicit bias), but who poses a serious threat in chapter 5 once Alec accidentally blows his cover.
  2. Charlie doesn't show up until the end of chapter 2; until then, the focus is on how my decoy protagonist Alec is a white criminal (who brings up in the narration that his white privilege makes many of the criminal parts of his life easier than many of the non-criminal parts of Charlie's life), as is their third friend Amy
  3. Charlie is shown to be the most scientifically-minded member of the group, having originally gone into the drug market to pay for a chemistry degree, and she wants to learn about magic as much for the sheer joy of learning how the world works as for the pragmatic potential of being able to use it in commiting crimes in the future. She is also not a people-person in the way that her two best friends are – looking at Myers-Briggs types, Alec is ESFP, Amy is ESFJ, and Charlie is ISTJ – but we do see how afraid she is of one or both of them getting hurt or killed, and one of the driving arcs of the book revolves around how guilty she feels that they're always risking their lives for her sake and never the other way around.

Does this mitigate the "Charlie's a Black criminal" stereotype as much as I hope it does, or is there anything in here that I still need to rethink (up to and including the entire book)?
 

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:( Sigh. As a black female, I find Charlie to be very stereotypical and offensive. Here we have another black person depicted as a criminal. Surprise. Just because you have some good black characters in the book doesn't mean Charlie isn't the stereotypical black gangster. Sorry. That doesn't change that Charlie is another black character portrayed in a very negative light. I'm not saying black people can't ever be criminals in stories but it's just overdone to the hilt unless there is a significant reason to why she'd have to be a criminal. Why does Charlie have to be in the crew? Why can't she just be the smart ally to the others but not actually committing crimes? It would be refreshing to see a book where all the minority characters were positive and ONLY the white characters were the ones doing the bad things. You got Amy and Alec as criminals so is there a specific reason Charlie has to be one too? Does Charlie even have to be black or is this a play on diversity?

You also say Alec talks about white privilege in the narration. You're trying too hard and no this still does not take away from the fact that Charlie is a stereotype. Look, if you want Charlie to be who she is then just own it and don't worry about it. Go with your gut if that's what you want but if you ask if people might be offended, yeah. To me I see nothing different about Charlie than any other black character who is portrayed as a drug dealer or criminal. We see this time and time again.

Also, Charlie going into the drug game to pay for her degree is not realistic to me. When females commit crimes to get money they most likely do things like forging checks, prostitution or burglary. Not many females would deal drugs just to pay for a degree. Why can't she afford her degree in the first place? If she is so smart to get a chemistry degree, wouldn't she have been able to get a scholarship or grant or something? Why wouldn't she get a student loan instead of jumping to sell drugs? Also, this would make me hate Charlie because I couldn't get over how she didn't care about pumping drugs into the community and wrecking lives just so she could get her chemistry degree. Wow, what a gem. Why couldn't she get a darn job and pay for her degree?

These are questions agents, editors, or readers will want to know. What motivates Charlie to do the things she does? Is she originally from the streets or the wrong side of the tracks anyway? Because the average person who isn't into that life isn't gonna jump up and sell drugs just to get a degree. Do you map out in the story why she had to go to selling drugs specifically?

Now, the lesbian thing. :rolleyes: Another overused stereotype. Why are so many black women portrayed as lesbians? When they make black women lesbians on TV shows and movies I take it as they do this because they don't want to have to have a male love interest for her so they can just throw in she's gay and leave it at that. Does Charlie actually have a gay relationship in the book? Is there a significance to her being gay? Why can't Amy be gay? It feels like you went into diversity overload. I am all for diversity but not just thrown in for the sake of it and especially when it makes characters into stereotypes.

I'm not trying to dictate your story, just sharing my opinion and hopefully I raised issues that help you see where readers would come from. It's all about how your work will be perceived. Sure, we're gonna always offend people but if we (general we) can also try harder to write diverse characters that are not stereotypical.

On another note, I am glad that Charlie seems to be the smartest in the group. :)

I gave an honest opinion of what I take from the story. No offense meant.
 
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Simpson17866

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I gave an honest opinion of what I take from the story. No offense meant.
If any offense was taken on my part, it would not have been your fault.

:( Sigh. As a black female, I find Charlie to be very stereotypical and offensive. Here we have another black person depicted as a criminal. Surprise. Just because you have some good black characters in the book doesn't mean Charlie isn't the stereotypical black gangster. Sorry. That doesn't change that Charlie is another black character portrayed in a very negative light. I'm not saying black people can't ever be criminals in stories but it's just overdone to the hilt unless there is a significant reason to why she'd have to be a criminal.

... You also say Alec talks about white privilege in the narration. You're trying too hard and no this still does not take away from the fact that Charlie is a stereotype.

... To me I see nothing different about Charlie than any other black character who is portrayed as a drug dealer or criminal. We see this time and time again.
Wow, thank you. I've spent years justifying the LGBT+ villain protagonist in another work by saying "people are not stereotypes, only patterns are stereotypes" and pointing to the LGBT+ hero protagonists of the same work, so clearly I have a lot that I need to rethink beyond just what I've written about Charlie.

Why does Charlie have to be in the crew? Why can't she just be the smart ally to the others but not actually committing crimes? It would be refreshing to see a book where all the minority characters were positive and ONLY the white characters were the ones doing the bad things. You got Amy and Alec as criminals so is there a specific reason Charlie has to be one too?
I wanted the story to be about 3 sociopaths who care about each other and have each others' backs, and my main decision about the magic they were going to focus on was supposed to be about how much they depend on each other.

Does Charlie even have to be black or is this a play on diversity?
I would be able to make her white without changing any of the plot or most of the characterization.

Look, if you want Charlie to be who she is then just own it and don't worry about it. Go with your gut if that's what you want but if you ask if people might be offended, yeah.
That is not the kind of writer I want to be.

Also, Charlie going into the drug game to pay for her degree is not realistic to me. When females commit crimes to get money they most likely do things like forging checks, prostitution or burglary. Not many females would deal drugs just to pay for a degree. Why can't she afford her degree in the first place? If she is so smart to get a chemistry degree, wouldn't she have been able to get a scholarship or grant or something? Why wouldn't she get a student loan instead of jumping to sell drugs? Also, this would make me hate Charlie because I couldn't get over how she didn't care about pumping drugs into the community and wrecking lives just so she could get her chemistry degree. Wow, what a gem. Why couldn't she get a darn job and pay for her degree?
I read somewhere that 75% of drug dealers only do it part-time and have a legitimate day job, and I thought I could use that here.

These are questions agents, editors, or readers will want to know. What motivates Charlie to do the things she does? Is she originally from the streets or the wrong side of the tracks anyway? Because the average person who isn't into that life isn't gonna jump up and sell drugs just to get a degree. Do you map out in the story why she had to go to selling drugs specifically?
I was originally thinking that she was from the wrong side of tracks, but when I read that drug dealing isn't as exclusively lower-class as people think it is, I thought about making her a science major, and I thought that this both reduced the potential for an "all Black people are from the streets" impression while also adding a "learning about the world for the joy of learning" angle.

Now, the lesbian thing. :rolleyes: Another overused stereotype. Why are so many black women portrayed as lesbians?
Oh. I was under the impression that it went in the opposite direction.

When they make black women lesbians on TV shows and movies I take it as they do this because they don't want to have to have a male love interest for her so they can just throw in she's gay and leave it at that. Does Charlie actually have a gay relationship in the book? Is there a significance to her being gay? Why can't Amy be gay? It feels like you went into diversity overload. I am all for diversity but not just thrown in for the sake of it and especially when it makes characters into stereotypes.

I'm not trying to dictate your story, just sharing my opinion and hopefully I raised issues that help you see where readers would come from. It's all about how your work will be perceived. Sure, we're gonna always offend people but if we (general we) can also try harder to write diverse characters that are not stereotypical.
You are not doing anything wrong here.

I definitely need to go back to Writing With Color for a lot of reading (and re-reading). For future works, even if I'm not able to salvage this one.

On another note, I am glad that Charlie seems to be the smartest in the group. :)
Thanks. I love math and science, and I love writing characters who do.

And thanks again for everything else.
 
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Polenth

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I'm non-white, though not black, so take that as you will. The general issue is that you're trying to offset things you know might be an issue with minor additions. Like having a character who has heard of social justice, or a minor background character is black, or the lead worries about friends sometimes. But you've still got a black lead who hits all the criminal gang stereotypes on the head, so those minor things aren't going to change anything.

At some level, I think you know that, as you're planning to alternate between heroes and villains. You know the villains aren't going to carry it on their own. But it might be that it'd work better to have some alternation in every book, rather than one villain book and one hero book. This is assuming that you have black people in major hero roles as well, rather than just as minor background roles. Janitor #3 and Bank Guard #5 are not the same thing as black characters in a range of meaningful roles with character development.

For example, Black Panther has a black villain. Pretty much every other character who gets character development is also black. It's a very different dynamic than if you had the same villain in a story where everyone was white.

That's sticking to this forum focus only. I'd also consider whether all-sociopaths-are-criminals is a good route to go. Or person-with-PTSD-is-inherently-violent. And so on and so forth. It might be this is a book you'd do better looking at later, after you've written some other things.
 

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If any offense was taken on my part, it would not have been your fault.

Wow, thank you. I've spent years justifying the LGBT+ villain protagonist in another work by saying "people are not stereotypes, only patterns are stereotypes" and pointing to the LGBT+ hero protagonists of the same work, so clearly I have a lot that I need to rethink beyond just what I've written about Charlie.

I wanted the story to be about 3 sociopaths who care about each other and have each others' backs, and my main decision about the magic they were going to focus on was supposed to be about how much they depend on each other.

I would be able to make her white without changing any of the plot or most of the characterization.

That is not the kind of writer I want to be.

I read somewhere that 75% of drug dealers only do it part-time and have a legitimate day job, and I thought I could use that here.

I was originally thinking that she was from the wrong side of tracks, but when I read that drug dealing isn't as exclusively lower-class as people think it is, I thought about making her a science major, and I thought that this both reduced the potential for an "all Black people are from the streets" impression while also adding a "learning about the world for the joy of learning" angle.

Oh. I was under the impression that it went in the opposite direction.

You are not doing anything wrong here.

I definitely need to go back to Writing With Color for a lot of reading (and re-reading). For future works, even if I'm not able to salvage this one.

Thanks. I love math and science, and I love writing characters who do.

And thanks again for everything else.

You're welcome and glad I helped!
 

Simpson17866

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This is assuming that you have black people in major hero roles as well, rather than just as minor background roles. Janitor #3 and Bank Guard #5 are not the same thing as black characters in a range of meaningful roles with character development.

For example, Black Panther has a black villain. Pretty much every other character who gets character development is also black. It's a very different dynamic than if you had the same villain in a story where everyone was white.
So I've come to the realization that my racial dynamic so far is even worse than I'd thought it was, but I also just had a crazy thought about a fourth option for what to do about it (with the understanding that "make all the villains, including the MC, white," "create a new Black character to be developed as the lead hero antagonist," and "drop the book entirely" are still on the table), and I'm wondering if this fourth idea would completely solve the problem, partially solve the problem, not change anything, or just make everything even worse than it already is:

  • Since the heroic background characters don't count as much as I'd assumed they would, the moral core of my developed protagonists and antagonists is Amy's baby brother Jason, who goes along with his sister's and her friends' lives of crime because they'd convinced him in their previous criminal enterprise that they would never use violence against innocent people and that they were trying to reduce the violence of the criminal underworld from the inside.
  • Alec spends the first half of the book blaming Jason for the personal risks they've had to take to protect his ethical sensibilities, but then at the halfway point (while Amy is recovering from the coma she's been in since the end of chapter 1), Jason decides that enough is enough and he tries to convince her to walk out and go legit, but he fails and decides to leave by himself.
Putting this explicitly into words this morning, "only having one near-heroic main character in a story, and having him be white when a few of the villains – including the MC – are Black," made me realize that this is even worse than the "not having any heroic characters, and having some of the villains – including the MC – be Black" that we'd been talking about so far.

But what if Jason was adopted, and therefor didn't have to be white just because Amy is?

Again, "make all the villains white" is still on the table, as are "create a new Black hero antagonist" and "drop the book entirely," but I'm surprising myself with how easily I'm able to re-imagine Jason, the primary moral opposition to his sister's and her friends' moral bankruptcy, as a Black man after 2 years of thinking he was white.

But this also wouldn't be the first time that I've come up with an idea that wasn't as good as I'd thought it was. Would this new idea be a step forward or a step back?
 
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Are you focusing too much on race?

*Why* must the cast be diverse? The dynamics (as already noted excellently above) are very different for various ethnicities. So, how does a Black MC benefit the story?

If adding diversity for the sake of it, then I'd advise against. But if the diversity is integral to the story, and can *not* be replaced without changing the core, then I'd say keep the Black MC (with the obvious caveats).
 

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I am a black woman, myself, and personally, I do not find anything offensive about this. Thing is, criminal people come in all kinds of colors and shades, and I think it is fine to have a black character be a criminal just like it is fine to have a white person be a criminal. I think it would be worse to avoid making her a criminal due to the fact she was black. Lets put it this white, would you need to ask that question if you were writing a white character? Black people are just as diverse as any other group of people, some of us are good, some of us are bad. Some of us go to school, get an education, become successful. Some of us live a life of crime. Some of us are somewhere in between...as it is with any race. Especially if this character grew up on a harsher part of town, I could certainly believe she would turn to crime. It's not a stereotype, most crime happens in harsh neighborhoods, and if she did not grow up in a harsh neighborhood, but rather the suburbs, then I would want to know why she felt crime was the best for her situation (I'd want to know that even if she did grow up in a harsh part of town btw).

My advice is to be true to the character you want to create. If her only defining trait is that she is a criminal then that wouldn't work, less because of racism and more because of bad character development.

No, this does not offend me as a black woman, neither do I think this is racist. What's more racist are people trying to portray black characters as angels for fear of black lash instead of just remembering that black people are human beings with flaws just like anyone else.

I encourage you to keep writing it. I think you may have a good story, and readers (regardless of race) may pick it up able to relate to this character, and hey, it could change their lives for the better.

It honestly sounds to me like you have an interesting character going that I would like to read about.
 

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I am a black woman, myself, and personally, I do not find anything offensive about this. Thing is, criminal people come in all kinds of colors and shades, and I think it is fine to have a black character be a criminal just like it is fine to have a white person be a criminal. I think it would be worse to avoid making her a criminal due to the fact she was black. Lets put it this white, would you need to ask that question if you were writing a white character? Black people are just as diverse as any other group of people, some of us are good, some of us are bad. Some of us go to school, get an education, become successful. Some of us live a life of crime. Some of us are somewhere in between...as it is with any race. Especially if this character grew up on a harsher part of town, I could certainly believe she would turn to crime. It's not a stereotype, most crime happens in harsh neighborhoods, and if she did not grow up in a harsh neighborhood, but rather the suburbs, then I would want to know why she felt crime was the best for her situation (I'd want to know that even if she did grow up in a harsh part of town btw).

My advice is to be true to the character you want to create. If her only defining trait is that she is a criminal then that wouldn't work, less because of racism and more because of bad character development.

No, this does not offend me as a black woman, neither do I think this is racist. What's more racist are people trying to portray black characters as angels for fear of black lash instead of just remembering that black people are human beings with flaws just like anyone else.

I encourage you to keep writing it. I think you may have a good story, and readers (regardless of race) may pick it up able to relate to this character, and hey, it could change their lives for the better.

It honestly sounds to me like you have an interesting character going that I would like to read about.

I see what you’re saying, but isn’t a big part of the issue the fact that there’s a heck of a long history of Black characters being cast as villains—rapists, murderers, drug dealers and so on? I’m under the impression that this narrative has contributed to the knee-jerk fear that so many white pple seem to have around Black people.

I guess personally I feel that in an ideal world, villains should be any race the author wants them to be...but given our current society arrests and kills Black people for merely existing, it feels like it would be adding to the problem.

Feel free to correct me, though. I’m a non-Black PoC, and don’t want to overstep.
 

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I see what you’re saying, but isn’t a big part of the issue the fact that there’s a heck of a long history of Black characters being cast as villains—rapists, murderers, drug dealers and so on? I’m under the impression that this narrative has contributed to the knee-jerk fear that so many white pple seem to have around Black people.

I guess personally I feel that in an ideal world, villains should be any race the author wants them to be...but given our current society arrests and kills Black people for merely existing, it feels like it would be adding to the problem.

Feel free to correct me, though. I’m a non-Black PoC, and don’t want to overstep.

Putputt, I completely agree with your point, and I am sick of minorities being shown in a stereotypical light. Please someone tell me when there has ever been a shortage of black villains, crooks, or criminals? I'll wait. :rolleyes: People cannot deny that depiction happens to minorities ten times more than it happens to whites. Let's be real here. Also, no one is saying blacks can't be villains in stories. Please. That's just silly. What I'm saying is they don't have to be villains or crooks ALL THE DAMN TIME. There has always been an abundance of minorities being stereotyped in negative ways. There is no shortage of black villains anywhere, believe me. That's the issue. We see more minorities being written in a negative light in literature, TV, and movies way more than white characters. That's just the truth and it comes from society's warped view on minorities, etc. Some people might not care about that, I do.

As I posted in my other reply, some people will always be offended, of course. But obviously the OP is struggling with this because he would not have brought this up. So it proves something is not sitting right with the characters in his view. That's why as authors we have to listen to our guts. If something feels wrong, we need to get to the bottom of the problem and solve it.

Also, people are offended or not by different things. It's not about us on this board, it's about the AGENTS and EDITORS and I am telling you right now, sensitivity readers (which most pubs are employing now) would have a lot of issues with this for various reasons. I think pretending there isn't issues here does a disservice to the OP who is asking for help. If I needed help, I want genuine, non-sugarcoated help. The OP is trying to get published so it's imperative that they don't try to submit work that might offend tons of people. It's hard enough getting published as it is.

I commend the OP for asking for feedback because that shows they do care about how they depict people and this is obviously to help the OP's chance at getting published or represented so that's what the issue is here.
 
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Putputt

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Putputt, I completely agree with your point, and I am sick of minorities being shown in a stereotypical light. Please someone tell me when there has ever been a shortage of black villains, crooks, or criminals? I'll wait. :rolleyes: People cannot deny that depiction happens to minorities ten times more than it happens to whites. Let's be real here. Also, no one is saying blacks can't be villains in stories. Please. That's just silly. What I'm saying is they don't have to be villains or crooks ALL THE DAMN TIME. There has always been an abundance of minorities being stereotyped in negative ways. There is no shortage of black villains anywhere, believe me. That's the issue. We see more minorities being written in a negative light in literature, TV, and movies way more than white characters. That's just the truth and it comes from society's warped view on minorities, etc. Some people might not care about that, I do.

As I posted in my other reply, some people will always be offended, of course. But obviously the OP is struggling with this because he would not have brought this up. So it proves something is not sitting right with the characters in his view. That's why as authors we have to listen to our guts. If something feels wrong, we need to get to the bottom of the problem and solve it.

Also, people are offended or not by different things. It's not about us on this board, it's about the AGENTS and EDITORS and I am telling you right now, sensitivity readers (which most pubs are employing now) would have a lot of issues with this for various reasons. I think pretending there isn't issues here does a disservice to the OP who is asking for help. If I needed help, I want genuine, non-sugarcoated help. The OP is trying to get published so it's imperative that they don't try to submit work that might offend tons of people. It's hard enough getting published as it is.

I commend the OP for asking for feedback because that shows they do care about how they depict people and this is obviously to help the OP's chance at getting published or represented so that's what the issue is here.


Seconding the kudos to the OP for taking the time to ask for feedback and being so gracious about it.

For me personally, it’s about trying to do the least harm with my writing. Just this morning I read about a Black man, who’s an ex-White House staffer, moving into his new apartment...and the neighbors thought he was breaking in and called the cops. I mean...really, is there anything that Black people can do in America that won’t freak out fragile white people?? One of the comments on hat article was: “All you have to do is log onto to Next Door and you’ll see hundreds of posts by shrill white people freaked out abt Black pple in their neighborhoods.”

So while this irrational fear of Black people still exists, while Black citizens are being persecuted on the daily, I feel that having a Black criminal character would be contributing to the problem.

On the other hand, if you (the OP) are committed to diversity in your work, then there are always options. Others may disagree with me on this, but...for example, there isn’t such a shrill fear towards Asians, especially East Asians. I’m Asian myself, and I would love to see more Asian rep in books. An Asian villain, as long as s/he’s not your stereotypical Foo Man Chu type, is something I love to see. Another possibility is to move away from race altogether and maybe consider having someone with a disability? We have so many able-bodied characters. Of course, whatever you choose to do, make sure the characters are well-rounded and fleshed out. And have various forms of diversity, and more diverse characters. That way, you’ll avoid having the only diverse character having to represent the entirety of the non-white, non-able-bodied community. (This is just my personal preference...I am biased towards having more diverse casts. Others may disagree!)
 

Simpson17866

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(This is just my personal preference...I am biased towards having more diverse casts. Others may disagree!)
I don't think you'll get a lot of flak for that here ;)

Others may disagree with me on this, but...for example, there isn’t such a shrill fear towards Asians, especially East Asians. I’m Asian myself, and I would love to see more Asian rep in books. An Asian villain, as long as s/he’s not your stereotypical Foo Man Chu type, is something I love to see.
That is definitely good to know. Thank you.

So far, the best, easiest option is looking like making all of my villain antagonists white and Charlie either white or Asian.

  • Rewriting my supporting protagonist Jason – the only major character out of my eight who isn't a villain, making him the primary moral opposition to my lead protagonists' moral bankruptcy – as being Black instead of white may not counterbalance Charlie as well as I'd thought: a character who's a criminal because his sister Amy and her friends promised him that they wouldn't put innocent people in danger, who calls them out in every scene he's in for their not living up to their promise, and who finally accepts half-way through the book that he has to walk out and go legit, is still a criminal.
  • Giving one of my background Black heroes enough screentime and development to be The Hero Antagonist – and/or creating a new Hero Antagonist – would change the plot, the conflict, the climax, the resolution, and the atmosphere of the story.
  • Rewriting my series so that the first Hero Protagonist book takes place before the first Villain Protagonist book, making my lead Hero Protagonist Black, and writing/publishing her book before publishing this one, wouldn't help if the Villain half of the series has to be looked at seperately from the Hero half.
  • There's a scene where Alec and Amy talk explicitly – as part of another conversation, so as to avoid the "As You Know" trap – about the fact that the vast majority of people with PTSD aren't violent criminals the way Amy is, but I feel like that only works as well as it does because she's the only character in my book with PTSD, whereas three of my seven main villains (the lead protagonist and two of the four antagonists) are currently Black. If three out of seven villains (and no non-villains) in my story all had PTSD, then Amy's "my criminally-violent response to PTSD is unusual" lines wouldn't carry any weight, and having my characters talk about most Black people not being violent criminals the way Charlie and two of the antagonists are – no matter how smoothly the lines fit into the conversation around it – would not be enough here for the same reason.
Another possibility is to move away from race altogether and maybe consider having someone with a disability? We have so many able-bodied characters. Of course, whatever you choose to do, make sure the characters are well-rounded and fleshed out. And have various forms of diversity, and more diverse characters. That way, you’ll avoid having the only diverse character having to represent the entirety of the non-white, non-able-bodied community.
Why yes, I have spent a great deal of time getting a great deal of feedback from people with PTSD about my vision of Amy being a villain with PTSD, and I wish I'd thought to spend even half of that amount of time before now looking for even half of that amount of feedback about the racial side of the story. Everyone here has been amazing, and I have needed this so much.
 

Snitchcat

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So far, the best, easiest option is looking like making all of my villain antagonists white and Charlie either white or Asian.

Why Asian? And what do you mean by "Asian"? Bear in mind that the cultures on the Asian Continent vary incredibly from region to region, even if they're next door neighbours. Also, the racial dynamics and stereotypes change drastically, especially the mindset. Example: much of the Western mindset is "the individual first"; by contrast, much of the Eastern mindset is "country > community > family > individual (last)".

So, is "Asian" really an easy option?
 

Simpson17866

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Why Asian?
Because Putputt pointed out that Asian=violent isn’t as strong a stereotype in America as it is for other demographics (Black, Latino, Arab...)

And what do you mean by "Asian"?
I wasn’t sure yet...

Bear in mind that the cultures on the Asian Continent vary incredibly from region to region, even if they're next door neighbours. Also, the racial dynamics and stereotypes change drastically, especially the mindset. Example: much of the Western mindset is "the individual first"; by contrast, much of the Eastern mindset is "country > community > family > individual (last)".
... for exactly this reason.

So, is "Asian" really an easy option?
Not as easy as making everybody white (which is definitely on the table), but easier than rewriting most/all of the story from scratch the way my 2nd and 3rd alternatives would require.
 

Snitchcat

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I'm not sure writing an Asian character would be easier at this stage.

I'm wondering if writing an Asian character looks easier on the surface 'cos the actual ethnicity has yet to be determined?

Example: the caste system still exists in India; there are different types of greetings / behaviour / dynamics between generations in Japan and China; there are subtle and blatant differences between Malays and Singaporeans; cultural habits, attitudes and appearance, as well as customs and vocabulary come into play particularly in the larger countries. Example: China's north is very different to its western area, which is something else compared to central China, which again changes dramatically when going south or east. The same is true of India. And Taiwan is another world altogether: native Taiwanese vs. Taiwanese Chinese; spoken languages differ, too.

The Philippines and Thailand are worlds apart, as is Indonesia.

And the Middle East might have similar philosophies, but the interpretation is so varied that we still have a war there (religion obviously isn't the only reason for the war). And even within, say, the UAE, the restrictions on dress code / cultural activities in Doha are almost the reverse of what is seen in Dubai (the latter has a transient population larger than its native resident population).

The non-violent Asian is also a stereotype of Asia: how many people over here actually practice Buddhism? Non-violent? Sure, we prefer non-violent solutions, but it doesn't mean we're all "may you be blessed this day" or "apologies for the infraction" etc. A lot of us are, "WTF? GTFO!" and "Oh, FFS, piss off!" as well as "Git; moving on" and "Didn't see you; you don't exist".

Anyway. Some things for you to consider.

Ultimately, it's your story, your character. Just do the due diligence / research / respect thing and you'll be good to go. :)
 

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I'm not sure writing an Asian character would be easier at this stage.

I'm wondering if writing an Asian character looks easier on the surface 'cos the actual ethnicity has yet to be determined?

Example: the caste system still exists in India; there are different types of greetings / behaviour / dynamics between generations in Japan and China; there are subtle and blatant differences between Malays and Singaporeans; cultural habits, attitudes and appearance, as well as customs and vocabulary come into play particularly in the larger countries. Example: China's north is very different to its western area, which is something else compared to central China, which again changes dramatically when going south or east. The same is true of India. And Taiwan is another world altogether: native Taiwanese vs. Taiwanese Chinese; spoken languages differ, too.

The Philippines and Thailand are worlds apart, as is Indonesia.

And the Middle East might have similar philosophies, but the interpretation is so varied that we still have a war there (religion obviously isn't the only reason for the war). And even within, say, the UAE, the restrictions on dress code / cultural activities in Doha are almost the reverse of what is seen in Dubai (the latter has a transient population larger than its native resident population).

The non-violent Asian is also a stereotype of Asia: how many people over here actually practice Buddhism? Non-violent? Sure, we prefer non-violent solutions, but it doesn't mean we're all "may you be blessed this day" or "apologies for the infraction" etc. A lot of us are, "WTF? GTFO!" and "Oh, FFS, piss off!" as well as "Git; moving on" and "Didn't see you; you don't exist".

Anyway. Some things for you to consider.
Point so very much taken, and my apologies for not responding earlier. I seriously cannot thank you (or anyone else here) enough for all of your time.

Ultimately, it's your story, your character. Just do the due diligence / research / respect thing and you'll be good to go. :)
Thanks, but my research actually just hit a snag: Writing With Color is an amazing resource, every post they write about anything makes it very clear that the Mods know what they're talking about, and I have been devouring their posts for about a month now with a one-thing-after-another compulsion normally reserved for YouTube or TV Tropes.

(Seriously, any white writers here who haven't looked at WWC yet: DO SO.)

I'd found a lot of their posts where somebody asked the Mods if whitewashing potentially-problematic characters would be the best way to avoid racial stereotypes (such as sociopathic villainy) and where the Mods said that whitewashing would still be bad for different reasons, but it seemed like my own situation was different because those other stories all had room for some good characters of color in addition, yet my stories revolves entirely around violent criminals...

... But I just found a post where somebody asks if a story that revolves entirely around violent criminals should be whitewashed, and the Mods said the same thing that they did all those other times.

Before I found that one, I felt like I had a good option ("make everybody white") and 5 bad options ("make the main non-villain Black," "develop a secondary Black hero into The Hero Antagonist," "create a new Black Hero Antagonist from scratch," "write another book about a Black Hero Protagonist in the same series before this one," "and Tell that not all Black people are violent criminals instead of Showing").

Now I'll be processing this even longer.
 

Cairo Amani

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If anyone hasn't asked...

you have 100% control over the story why is the choice to pick a marginalized demographic and make them a villain at all? when we so desperately need to be better represented as heroes, gods, and every other positive thing we haven't been able to be.


And if you're a (straight)white writer, you have an added responsibility to use ANY sort of privilege you have to bring (q)POC to positive light. I'm sure your intentions are good (and that statement I admit is a bit tongue in cheek) but I would avoid this all together. It's the opposite of what the story needs.

I don't think *this* is the sort of story that needs to be diverse in that way. We have enough villains of black people and every other non-white race.

You can write a really dope POC mc for another story with a clear strong hero. We need more and more and more of those.
 

Simpson17866

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If anyone hasn't asked...

you have 100% control over the story why is the choice to pick a marginalized demographic and make them a villain at all?
As a matter of fact, that was the first thing I was told (post #2, cool pop, 04/28), and for about a month after that, "making all the villains white" seemed like the unambiguous best option compared to all of the problems I'd identified in all of the alternatives I'd come up with.

I'd found a bunch of Writing With Color articles saying that "all-white casts" are about as bad as "casts with POC stereotypes" in different ways, but – as you just said – I still felt after cool pop's and polenth's responses that this story didn't lend itself to the same thing (as those articles tended to be about hero versus villain, in which case any/all of the heroes could be POC, whereas my own was villain versus villain).

Finding their article where they said the same thing "don't whitewash the cast" about a story where everybody's a violent criminal – not just another good versus evil story – made my "unambiguous" best option feel a lot less ambiguous.

However, that article also didn't make me 100% comfortable with pushing on through with my original idea either: the article does say "Something else you could do is reference family and friends from your characters whom have not committed horrible crimes" but it does immediately follow this with "It’s not as powerful a remedy as full-bodied characters though."

So one way or another, my story definitely isn't good enough yet.
 

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Maybe it's not that your story isn't good enough yet. Perhaps it's more in the execution than the idea? Could it be that the idea isn't fully fleshed yet and you're jumping too far ahead in the story, wanting to get to the exciting character action parts? Or could it be the stakes aren't high enough for the characters involved?

Just considerations that may help you progress -- if you're still working on the story that is. If not, that's okay; more things to consider for other stories and for this one when/if you decided to return to it.
 

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Or could it be the stakes aren't high enough for the characters involved?
That part, at least, is not one of the many problems with my manuscript as it stands.

By the time I'd finished my first draft, the stakes had gotten far more personal then they'd been when I started, and I'd cried like a baby when writing the scene at the beginning of Act 2 where Charlie (lead protagonist) and Alec (first-person peripheral narrator) finally argue out loud about something that had been simmering under the surface for all of Act 1.

Just considerations that may help you progress -- if you're still working on the story that is. If not, that's okay; more things to consider for other stories and for this one when/if you decided to return to it.
I've actually found even more issues with my draft as it currently stands, but yes, I am still trying to find ways to make it work better.