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Are you writing for yourself, for readers or for sales?

Elenitsa

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I have read here, and on other writers' blogs, that some of them are writing their novels thinking at sales and writing what the reader might want.

But while I am thinking at my potential readers too when I am writing (such as in the choice of words, in offering footnote explanations when characters and historical facts which might not be of common knowledge are mentioned in the text, etc.) I am not choosing from the start a subject meant first and foremost to appeal to readers in the way others do (such as sending first an idea to find a publisher, then writing the novel only after getting the publisher's acceptance, or thinking about subjects the others would want to read in the detriment of subjects which appeal to her to write). I am of the concept that if a novel is well written, it will find its audience to enjoy it. And it is better to seek to publish a novel already written, than an idea which might never get finished, or the publisher might go bankrupt/ change his mind afterwards.

I am writing the story which has grown in my mind and wants out. Once materialized into a novel, I find the best publisher for that novel. I feel I couldn't write anything else than what is in my inspiration. What about you?

As an economist, I can say that sales are an indicator of success like any other. Just... how many writers have actually got rich from writing? Not too many (a few bestseller authors aside, and those mostly in the English language literature. My novels aren't written in English and I have learnt from various writers and especially publishers that most book marketing advices I am reading on internet are focusing on the English language market, which is different from our national one and from others - French, Greek, etc. I guess the main differences are 1) in the English literary world one uses very much agents, where here they are unknown, their work being split between the writer and the publisher, 2) the English literary world promotes very much e-books, which here aren't sought and 3) the English literary world measures its success in several tens millions of readers, while other countries don't have that number as full population, out of which the children, most of rural population and other segments are definitely not among the target readers anyway - but there are plenty of others.)

With the knowledge that not many writers have got rich from writing, I am pursuing as success indicator the number of readers and where they are spread. The opportunity of having offered my novels to friends who are now living in France, US, Canada or in different counties of my country (as I don't have possibility to make tours in other counties) is, for me, an indicator of success. I have published with a small, indie press and it ensures literary events only in the capital (unless the authors have the connections to arrange for events elsewhere).

The fact that I have given (to people who actively wanted my novels) already 3 boxes' contents before the official launching (of the third novel) was also a sign of success for me. Many writers I know, from the same publishing house or from other small ones, give their books for free. I do some sales too, in the measure of the possibilities, but I have always counted the readers and their feed-back (and the literary critics' feed-back) as a measure of success. I was surprised that some people here seem to be concerned about sales rates...
 

Lakey

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A few years ago I had an argument with a dear friend of mine who has written criticism in the same space, for the same audience, that I have written criticism for. I was lamenting that I wanted to be read more, that I wanted to expand my audience but frustrated by the adaptations I thought I might have to make to do it. My friend - who is more widely known, more widely read, and also much better at the popular stuff than I am - kept telling me that I should “write for my pleasure” and “stop caring so much whether other people read it.”

What I could not get her to understand was that other people reading it is a big part of the pleasure.

I do write for myself, in the sense that I prefer not write about something I don’t enjoy thinking about (except for my day job, but fortunately most of what I write for my day job is very interesting too). But I don’t only write for myself, in the sense that I don’t write only to have written something; I write because I have ideas that I want to share with other people. I want to engage other people in a larger dialogue about those ideas and the space they occupy.

If nobody reads, I can’t do that, and so the pleasure is lessened.

Perhaps the novel (or my fiction generally) is coming from a different part of my brain from where my criticism comes from; perhaps writing it is doing different things for me from what writing criticism does. But I am still the same person, either way. I know that I won’t be as satisfied by having written a novel than I will be by having a written a novel that some people have read. That’s why I am investing in things like learning about craft and trying to develop an interesting story and grounding it in historical research and pacing it well, rather than just transcribing my dearest fantasies and filing them away. What I want is to write something that other people will want to read.

To answer your question, then: writing for myself and writing for readers aren’t two different things.

One more thing: “Getting rich” is a pretty narrow metric for economic success. Most writers are content with “make a living” — and many, many writers manage to do that.
 

Bufty

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Glad the method and approach you use to judge success works for you, Elenitsa.

The selling of a 'story' idea prior to writing usually only applies to non-fiction, or to established writers.

Different folk have different reasons for writing and everyone's idea of success may vary.

I started writing late in years, and simply because I wanted to 'write something'. So I guess I was initially writing for myself. If my grandchildren enjoy it- that's success for me. If it get's published - that's also success, but a bonus.

Some folk do write for a living- some hope to be able to make a living off writing.

'Success' is an elusive creature.
 
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lizmonster

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I've had what a lot of people would consider some success. I've also had absolute disaster.

I write for myself. It's the only thing I have control over. It's not that I don't want readers and sales - I do. But the majority of that is outside my circle of control. If I didn't love the writing, I'd have stopped by now.
 

KTC

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As Bufty says, novels are written and then a home is sought for them...in most cases.

I write for myself and I'm thrilled that others give a shit. It always makes me happy to know people are reading my books, but I would also write into the void.
 

Harlequin

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If I write only for myself, then there is no need to improve. There is no need to figure out how to convey my meaning clearly and succintly because I know what I mean.

I write to be read. I hope that means someone will pay me for it. If not, well, fine, but seriously--if you are ONLY writing for yourself there is no point pursuing craft. The whole point of craft is to make yourself accessible to other people.

Where you draw the line between reader expectations and your desire to tell the story in a certain way will vary from writer to writer, though.
 

lizmonster

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I write to be read. I hope that means someone will pay me for it. If not, well, fine, but seriously--if you are ONLY writing for yourself there is no point pursuing craft. The whole point of craft is to make yourself accessible to other people.

Interesting. This isn't true for me at all. I find improving my craft tremendously satisfying. That's not to say external validation isn't nice - it's lovely. (And I very much enjoyed having a professional editor - I learned a great deal from him.) But for me, there's value in work and improvement independent of what I sell. If there weren't, I wouldn't have worked for 43 years before I tried selling anything.
 

Harlequin

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Yeah and I can see where you are coming from, but for me, communication has never been and still isn't a strong suit.

Making myself understood, clearly and precisely, even if only through writing is a massive personal achievement.

But again, *for me* it's only necessary to be understood by other people if I wish to be heard at all. If I have no motivation to be heard or read then I have no need to improve my method of communication.
 

Fallen

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Hm, that's a tricky one. I love those first few drafts when I'm alone. After that, as more people step in, it starts to get crowded, most times in really good ways, some not so. I don't need the crowd to write, but they are one reason to write, and also perhaps a reason to run away from at the same time.

Basically all swings and roundabouts (most found outside my darkroom that just so happens to sit on a playing feild of agitated lava). :Shrug:
 
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Qwest

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It's a really interesting question, and I think writing is very much a form of communication: reaching out and trying to touch others with our words. Having said that, success is manifold, and for me it is something that has evolved. Of course, it would be wonderful to "connect" with others through my writing - and to make a living from my writing - but given the challenges of the market (the reality) it's very tough to do that. There are millions of writers out there, and many of them are better (for various reasons) at connecting with readers than I am. So my vision of success now is this: "writing is success". In short, the act of writing and crafting is where I try (I don't always succeed) to evolve as a person.

I've had what a lot of people would consider some success. I've also had absolute disaster.

I write for myself. It's the only thing I have control over. It's not that I don't want readers and sales - I do. But the majority of that is outside my circle of control. If I didn't love the writing, I'd have stopped by now.

What LizMonster says resonates. So, I have also come to accept that I need to write for myself - however, I don't do that without the desire to connect. For me it's this interesting duality where both are possible simultaneously.

And I agree with Lakey:

One more thing: “Getting rich” is a pretty narrow metric for economic success. Most writers are content with “make a living” — and many, many writers manage to do that.
 

Harlequin

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In some ways I think writing has a bad rep for success.

Lots of people probably want to be astronauts or engineers or doctors and the percentage of people who achieve that is likely low compared to those interested.
 

Qwest

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In some ways I think writing has a bad rep for success.

Lots of people probably want to be astronauts or engineers or doctors and the percentage of people who achieve that is likely low compared to those interested.

Good point. At any rate, I personally think it's important to writers to come to terms with what "success" means for them:

Connecting with readers? Yes.
Fame? Personally, not for me.
Living a more meaningful life through the art and craft of writing? Yes.
Making a living from writing? Yes.
 

indianroads

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My first 2 novels were autobiographies - and were stories I needed to tell, partly for closure, but also so that my kids / grandkids would know about my early life. As such, I never gave much thought to genre or selling to any particular audience.

I've always been a story teller though - and have written tales (often fantastical) since I was a kid.

In my current project, which is due out in June, I'm writing more for entertainment. I'd like it to be read, because for me telling a story is no fun unless someone listens to it. That said however, I believe that stories should evoke thought, and a lot of people (from my perspective) don't want to think as much as be entertained. So will the novel be a success? In a large sense it already is because I enjoyed writing it; it's a good story, one that I wish I could find when I'm looking for something to read. Success then, for me is about the story - and hopefully at least a few people reading and enjoying it; if that happens I'm happy.
 

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I write for myself. I'm very selfish. I love writing and I love it most when I'm writing the sort of stuff I'd love to read.

It would DRIVE ME NUTS trying to figure out if target audiences would like this or that or will it sell?

I write as a hobby. If people read it and dig it then that is a massive bonus and it's awesome. And, god willing, if I was ever good enough to make a career out of writing then that would be the stuff of dreams but I would always - always - start out thinking "Wow, wouldn't it be cool if..."
 

Cindyt

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In the beginning I wrote constipated stories with $ signs in my eyes. You know, big money, big house, big car. But when I finally learned how unleash my story on paper I no longer cared about getting paid. I wrote what I wanted the way I wanted, and a beta said I had a way with words and trashed the plot. :roll: So I went to nonfiction via my own newspaper op-ed. I am being read, but not paid. I don't care. I'm also going back to the novel. I'm going to rework it, self pub, and admire it sitting there on my bookshelf.
 
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Sam Artisan

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I write because the story is like a blazing arrow shot into my back and getting it out is the only way i can gain peace of mind, but somehow that feels like less of writing "for myself" and more like writing for the story's sake? is that the same thing? I didn't consider myself a writer at all before this beast of a tale grabbed me by the lapels and shook me around...

Publishing, though, i'm trying to do for other people. I'd be perfectly happy to sit on my book and hoard it like a dragon with gold, but after seeing how many people find encouragement and strength through reading books and also how my betas have reacted to my own story, I feel like what I have could do some good, if it got out there...
 

lizmonster

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I personally think it's important to writers to come to terms with what "success" means for them:

I think this is the important bit. We all have different motivations for writing, and none are any more or less valid than others. But we all have to make a choice about what keeps us going. And depending on what the business dishes up for us, that reason may change more than once.
 

nighttimer

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If I write only for myself, then there is no need to improve. There is no need to figure out how to convey my meaning clearly and succintly because I know what I mean.

I write to be read. I hope that means someone will pay me for it. If not, well, fine, but seriously--if you are ONLY writing for yourself there is no point pursuing craft. The whole point of craft is to make yourself accessible to other people.

Where you draw the line between reader expectations and your desire to tell the story in a certain way will vary from writer to writer, though.

Interesting. This isn't true for me at all. I find improving my craft tremendously satisfying. That's not to say external validation isn't nice - it's lovely. (And I very much enjoyed having a professional editor - I learned a great deal from him.) But for me, there's value in work and improvement independent of what I sell. If there weren't, I wouldn't have worked for 43 years before I tried selling anything.

If you're not writing for yourself, I don't know who you are writing for. To dare to be a writer is an act of outrageous egotism. Who are you to demand I pay attention to what you have written? Why should I spend my good money to read your bad writing? I demand you entertain me even though we have never met, you have no idea of what my likes and dislikes are and what I love to read may be precisely what you hate to write.

Who can pull off that Jedi Mind Trick? Not me.

I have no idea what my readers want so I don't write for them. I write for me first because I'm my own worst critic and once I've pleased me that's when I'll worry about you and not the other way around. Being authentic to myself means I'm not being pandering and phony to others.

The only reason anyone reads me at all is because they know going in all they're going to get is me writing as honestly as I can and if it should resonate with the readers, I've succeeded, but only because it resonated with me first.
 

Enlightened

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I'm unique, from most people I meet, in that I can use both analytical and creative talents equally well. Novel writing, like U.S. Federal grant writing (involving high-intensity detail), is project management to me. It allows me to use both analytical and creative strengths. I enjoy the challenge of learning something new and, if all goes well, becoming strong at it.

My goals, for writing novels, are: 1) challenge myself to do something I've never done before; 2) use both creative and analytical strengths (instead of letting them go stagnate); and 3) earn money (in various short- and long-term ways).

Fame is of zero interest to me. If I do well, as an author, and I can manage it, I will be private (and use pseudonyms throughout my different projects). I know pseudonyms are no guarantee to hide one's ID, but it may deter some people from wanting to waste their time looking into the matter. I plan on doing a lot in children's entertainment. I'm the guy who would rather go to Disneyland, as someone successful in said entertainment, and go unnoticed. I note Disneyland as an example; the first that came to mind.

Outside my goals, I have a lot of strengths that will help me create stories and characters (and other projects I have planned). I want to put my past experiences to work, and see what I can create. I think of it as "taking the reigns" of those who did this kind of work when I was young, that made entertainment so great decades ago.
 

BethS

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What I could not get her to understand was that other people reading it is a big part of the pleasure.

I totally get this. Stories need readers to complete the circle.

So to answer the OP's question--I write to please myself. I write to the reader but not for the reader, if you see the difference. It's not about pleasing them and writing to their tastes. They'll either like what I write or they won't. Sales is the ultimate goal since it represents more readers.
 

Harlequin

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As lakey and BethS said.

@nighttimer, i will try and explain ot better than i have. ;-)

Continuing to pursue writing for my own sake, is separate from wanting other people ti read a given piece of work. And separate, too, from pursuing *improvement* of writing.

I wrote fanfic for years as a teen. I never sought to improve because that was entirely for my own self. No one else.

Nowadays, I want to write as a way of communicating with others. That desire is "for myself". But part of successful communication includes adapting my means of expression in a way that is approachable for other people.
 
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Richard White

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As with everything else in life ... it depends.

I have a few projects that are labors of love. Maybe they'll get published, maybe they won't, but they're fun to work on.

I have a few projects that are media tie-in projects, which means they're work-for-hire. In these cases, while I certainly write what I hope are good stories, I don't invest myself in the characters or situations since as soon as the stories are accepted by the publisher, I no longer own said characters. Now, I can use them for future projects with that publisher, BUT I can't take those characters and use them in my own work, so the goal is to create as few "new" characters as possible and to use as many of the already established characters from the publisher. However, media tie-ins pay pretty well, so it's worth the effort to write to another person's vision (the licensor).

Most projects, I'm writing with a definite goal of publication. While I still write "what I want", I also have to recognize certain constraints and norms of the genre. Of course I can (and should) stretch the boundaries, but the more exotic you make it, the harder it is to place with an agent/publisher. And since I'm really not interested in self-publishing, then there's a certain amount of "play the game" that falls into the writing process. I have no desire to write stuff and just stick it up on Wattpad or my own web site for free -- too much work for too little payoff.

Then, there's always work-related writing, which is how I make my living. Tech writing isn't glamorous, but it pays the bills, so while I'd much rather write my own fiction, as long as people want to throw money at me to write their tech manuals, user manuals, network security plans, etc., I'm silly enough to keep taking it.
 
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Harlequin

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Honestly, it's a myth that self publishing means you don't have to play the game.

The successful self pubbers are either very lucky (tiny, TINY minority) or very hard-working people who do the numbers, work the hours, study the market trends, and write like the godsdamned wind on crack.

When someone in the indie groups says "I'm not earning" the most common questions (other than, what's your cover and blurb look like) are: have you targeted your market? Are you on trend? Have you correctly identified your audience and category, and adjusted for them adequately?

Trade publishing tends to take more risks in my limited experience.
 

Laer Carroll

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These goals are not mutually exclusive.
Good point. I'll go further. I think the question is silly and rude, one of those EITHER/OR questions that try to force us to choose overlapping choices. My answer is

ALL OF THE ABOVE.

We CAN prioritize our goals. First we must please ourselves, for without that our work is likely to be uninspired and not the best that we can do.

Then we can pay attention to other readers' pleasure. And if we succeed at that they will repay us by buying our work.