When Betas Collide

S.I. Mansson · Apr 22, 2018

So I've been fortunate enough to find a bunch of great beta readers for my story. Their feedback has been immensely helpful, both negative and positive. But today, I had two betas point out the same sentence in my MS. Except one of them thought it was, and I quote: "an A++ sentence" while the other thought it was awkward. Never have I had a clearer example of how subjective this bussiness is. But it got me thinking...

How do you people handle criticism like this, when two betas go completely against each other? How do you know which way to go?

It could be applied to bigger stuff too. What if one beta thinks you need to axe an entire scene because it doesn't further the plot, but another beta absolutely loves the scene?

Lastly, have you had any situations like this yourselves?

Let's discuss! :hi:

Harlequin · Apr 22, 2018

I would say that's normal. one beta's favorite line is another's PLEASE DELETE.

I go with my own vision of the story.

On a sentence level-- if two people disagree over whether a sentence is good or not, I think it's fine for the writer to be the tie-breaker in that case.

Sometimes the devil is in the details. One beta might like a sentence because of the underlying sentiment it expresses; another might actually be fine with the idea but feel the execution is cliche (and so, a slight rewording could be sufficient to please both, if you feel it's necessary.)

For bigger stuff, I'm more inclined to pay attention. A beta reader can enjoy a scene, without it being a good inclusion. I've cut scenes that some betas liked because other betas pointed out it was repetitive in relation to previous content, or didn't fit for some other reason. Iguess it just depends. Take it as a compliment that you can engage someone even if the material in question isn't quite right for the narrative ;-)

Edit: Something I find really tough is when one beta will say, "this is too explicit, you're hamfisting it, be more subtle"; meanwhile, another beta will say "this nearly went over my head, highlight it more." I find that so hard to balance. You don't want to preach but you don't want people to miss the point/clues/emotions etc.

BethS · Apr 22, 2018

In the end, you have to trust yourself. But if you really aren't sure, at least get another opinion or two.

In your particular case, it's interesting that both betas noticed that sentence. So it's apparently a standout in one way or another. Maybe ask the beta who thought it was awkward for a more forensic analysis of why they thought it was awkward. They might not be able to tell you, or what they tell you is wrong may not actually be wrong*, but it will at least you give a starting place for you own analysis of it.

And finally, always take criticism with a grain of salt. Doesn't mean you don't listen to it, but give yourself plenty of time to be sure about it before you make any changes.

*Sometimes readers will jump on something they think is an error when in fact it's not. And that comes down to the beta's own expertise as a reader rather than yours as a writer. It helps to learn what your betas' blind spots are.

S.I. Mansson · Apr 22, 2018

Harlequin said:
I would say that's normal. one beta's favorite line is another's PLEASE DELETE.

I go with my own vision of the story.

On a sentence level-- if two people disagree over whether a sentence is good or not, I think it's fine for the writer to be the tie-breaker in that case.

Sometimes the devil is in the details. One beta might like a sentence because of the underlying sentiment it expresses; another might actually be fine with the idea but feel the execution is cliche (and so, a slight rewording could be sufficient to please both, if you feel it's necessary.)

For bigger stuff, I'm more inclined to pay attention. A beta reader can enjoy a scene, without it being a good inclusion. I've cut scenes that some betas liked because other betas pointed out it was repetitive in relation to previous content, or didn't fit for some other reason. Iguess it just depends. Take it as a compliment that you can engage someone even if the material in question isn't quite right for the narrative ;-)

Edit: Something I find really tough is when one beta will say, "this is too explicit, you're hamfisting it, be more subtle"; meanwhile, another beta will say "this nearly went over my head, highlight it more." I find that so hard to balance. You don't want to preach but you don't want people to miss the point/clues/emotions etc.

Oh, that one is SO frustrating! Sometimes, I just wanna yell: "MAKE UP YOUR MINDS, PEOPLE!!!" Then I remember different people have different opinions. XD

That's a great point, about the devil in the details. Sometimes, maybe it's a good idea to actually question the positive feedback as well, like in the example I used above, I could ask the positive beta why they found that particular sentence "A++". Maybe that can help me reword it slightly, in a way that'll satisfy both parties.

Then again, the author can never satisfy everyone, and it might be dangerous to forget that. Like you said, the own vision of the story should always set the precedent. But I think that's my biggest challenge. To sort through the criticisms and decide which ones to heed. Getting negative comments has never bothered me all that much, so long as I get some time to process things. But sometimes, when I don't agree at all with a point they bring up, it's so hard to know whether that disagreement comes from a valid or petulant place.

Know thyself, I guess.

BethS said:
In the end, you have to trust yourself. But if you really aren't sure, at least get another opinion or two.

In your particular case, it's interesting that both betas noticed that sentence. So it's apparently a standout in one way or another. Maybe ask the beta who thought it was awkward for a more forensic analysis of why they thought it was awkward. They might not be able to tell you, or what they tell you is wrong may not actually be wrong*, but it will at least you give a starting place for you own analysis of it.

And finally, always take criticism with a grain of salt. Doesn't mean you don't listen to it, but give yourself plenty of time to be sure about it before you make any changes.

*Sometimes readers will jump on something they think is an error when in fact it's not. And that comes down to the beta's own expertise as a reader rather than yours as a writer. It helps to learn what your betas' blind spots are.

Yes, exactly this. It's all about trust in oneself, in the end. Just wish that was a little easier to come by! XD

I know, right?! I don't think the sentence is all that special, but they both made a comment about it, so clearly. I think I'll ask both of them what made them feel that way. At the very least, it'll be an interesting way to get some insight into their states of mind. Great tip about learning their blind spots!

Simpson17866 · Apr 24, 2018

I never feel like I've found enough Betas unless two of them disagree on something

What you do is you look at the explanations each reader gives for why one liked it and the other didn't; that way, you can better tell which perspective more closely aligns with what you're trying to accomplish in your story

You can't only look at the numbers: if you have a bunch of beta readers, and every single one of them agrees – either "this is good" or "this is bad" – then you should obviously take that into consideration, but if you have a bunch of readers saying one thing and only one other reader saying another thing, you may find that you like the one lone voice's explanation better than everybody else's explanations.

The corollary being that you need to have a clear idea of what your goal in telling the story is.

Sonsofthepharaohs · Apr 24, 2018

Betas are not editors. Their opinions are useful feedback, but in the end the arbiter of all editorial decisions has to be you. If two betas disagree, one is bound to resonate with your own opinion more than the other. Then they become a form of bias confirmation, although it's always useful to see the other side of the argument just to test your bias.

In the end, you can analyse feedback to death and drive yourself crazy, or you can make a decision and move on. You only need to start examining whether beta feedback is useful if you never act on it and therefore don't seem to progress as a writer.

WriteMinded · Apr 25, 2018

Getting different opinions is why it's good to have more than one beta. If everyone gave the same feedback you'd only need one. The decision making is your job. Fun, isn't it?

Bufty · Apr 26, 2018

Share-Your-Work can sometimes be like having a mini cluster of beta-readers! :snoopy:

AW Admin · Apr 26, 2018

We have an entire Beta subforum area, and I'm going to move this thread there from BWQ, since I think it merits more eyeballs.

frimble3 · Apr 26, 2018

OP, you started out by saying 'I have a bunch of great betas' - are the two with the comment the only ones who read this work, or the only two out of several that particularly mentioned this particular sentence?
If it's only a couple of readers out of a few, maybe it's just a matter of their tastes?

S.I. Mansson · May 1, 2018

Wow, I'm so behind on responding to this thread. Sorry guys!

Simpson17866 said:
I never feel like I've found enough Betas unless two of them disagree on something

What you do is you look at the explanations each reader gives for why one liked it and the other didn't; that way, you can better tell which perspective more closely aligns with what you're trying to accomplish in your story You can't only look at the numbers: if you have a bunch of beta readers, and every single one of them agrees – either "this is good" or "this is bad" – then you should obviously take that into consideration, but if you have a bunch of readers saying one thing and only one other reader saying another thing, you may find that you like the one lone voice's explanation better than everybody else's explanations.

The corollary being that you need to have a clear idea of what your goal in telling the story is.

Haha, well, in that case, the situation I posted above is a good sign.

Some great advice, right here. Playing the numbers game is so much easier, but it doesn't always work. In the end, one really has to trust one's own gut. But you touch on another tricky subject here, and that is INTERACTING with the betas once they've given their critique. Asking follow-up questions can be hard, expecially if you're asking about something they responded negatively to. I'm always afraid the beta till see it as me criticising THEM for having a critical opinion of my story, y'know?

Kallithrix said:
Betas are not editors. Their opinions are useful feedback, but in the end the arbiter of all editorial decisions has to be you. If two betas disagree, one is bound to resonate with your own opinion more than the other. Then they become a form of bias confirmation, although it's always useful to see the other side of the argument just to test your bias.

In the end, you can analyse feedback to death and drive yourself crazy, or you can make a decision and move on. You only need to start examining whether beta feedback is useful if you never act on it and therefore don't seem to progress as a writer.

This. This, SO MUCH. In the end, it all comes down to personal opinion, and I am a firm believer that you must trust yourself in the end. But you bring up a great point here, in being aware of the flaws. No story is perfect, people will always find faults with very book, and beta readers can help you be prepared once the book is published and reviewers start having their say.

There was a time where I had this integral need to heed and apply all feedback, to please everyone, and it's been both freeing and daunting to realize I never can. These days, I'm much better at looking at a piece of criticism and deciding whether it's valid or not (for me), but at the same time, whenever I discard a piece of advice from a beta reader, there's always a fear that I'm being too pigheaded, that I'm doing it for the wrong reasons.

And that's another interesting question in all this. What ARE the right reasons?

WriteMinded said:
Getting different opinions is why it's good to have more than one beta. If everyone gave the same feedback you'd only need one. The decision making is your job. Fun, isn't it?

Yeah, of course. Sometimes it's just so hard to make those decisions, y'know? Who's to say I'm right in my decision? Especially when it comes to stuff like this. :e2apple:

Bufty said:
Share-Your-Work can sometimes be like having a mini cluster of beta-readers!

Yeah, and that's SCARY!

S.I. Mansson · May 1, 2018

AW Admin said:
We have an entire Beta subforum area, and I'm going to move this thread there from BWQ, since I think it merits more eyeballs.

Oh, thank you! I was really unsure whether to post this in BWQ or the Beta-subforum, but it looked like there were only calls for finding betas in the latter, so... but you know way better than I do where this belongs!

S.I. Mansson · May 1, 2018

frimble3 said:
OP, you started out by saying 'I have a bunch of great betas' - are the two with the comment the only ones who read this work, or the only two out of several that particularly mentioned this particular sentence?
If it's only a couple of readers out of a few, maybe it's just a matter of their tastes?

Oh, it's only these two. I have... I think it's five or six other betas who haven't said anything about the line. So yeah, it might just be a matter of tastes, but how do you KNOW that for sure, y'know? :Shrug:

WeaselFire · May 2, 2018

S.I. Mansson said:
How do you people handle criticism like this, when two betas go completely against each other? How do you know which way to go?

Betas are advisors. You are the writer. At the end of the day, you are the one responsible for the final story, not them.

Jeff

Earthling · May 3, 2018

If the feedback immediately resonates with me, I act on it. If it immediately makes me think "Nope" I don't act on it.

For everything else, I generally go with consensus combined with my weightings of each reader's opinions. If I have one reader who is multi-published in my genre and who's given me great feedback in the past, I'll give her feedback more weight than a reader who isn't as knowledgeable about the genre. I usually have a couple of new betas per project so it's a trial and error process.

Twick · May 3, 2018

I think you have to first consider the comment. If your response is, "Oh, I never looked at it that way, but they're right," then go ahead and revise accordingly.

If your response is "That's nuts!" then you have to ask yourself is this your ego talking? Are you really sure the reaction isn't because you have tunnel vision regarding the passage?

Or maybe the comment IS nuts. If the beta is asking why your devotedly non-violent MC doesn't just punch out the villain, or why a character drawn from the streets isn't talking like a Harvard graduate, the issue is likely them, not you.

Qwest · May 3, 2018

What everyone else said... It's your story. You have to tell it in the way that resonates for you. Betas are sounding boards that's all.

Plus, you have to remember that you can't please every reader. Even extremely popular books have people who aren't fans.

Basically, get feedback from as many people as you can, thank them for their advice, take what resonates, discard what doesn't. If you're getting such different feedback line by line or paragraph by paragraph, then ultimately you have to decide. Other factors do play into this decision: which beta do you trust more, and why?

As Earthling said:

For everything else, I generally go with consensus combined with my weightings of each reader's opinions. If I have one reader who is multi-published in my genre and who's given me great feedback in the past, I'll give her feedback more weight than a reader who isn't as knowledgeable about the genre. I usually have a couple of new betas per project so it's a trial and error process.

Emily Patrice · May 6, 2018

It might be worth looking at those two betas' other comments on your work, to get a feel for whether they're true fans of that genre or doing a more clinical reading for reasons of their own. I would give more weight to comments from a reader who reads the genre (and subgenre) I'm writing and genuinely likes my work, except for that one sentence or scene that's nagging them as out-of-place.

It's also possible the sentence or scene pushes the wrong button with a particular reader, no matter how much they like your work in general. There's nothing wrong with it, except that this reader happens to hate semi-colons (uh, that would be me) or whatever.

Still, none of this should supersede your own judgment.

Chris P · May 7, 2018

I'm siding with those saying to trust your gut, while at the same time encouraging you to be open to reconsidering something you think is good (or even great).

During the editing for my one short-lived and poorly selling now defunct book (publisher went under), the editor had me cut a certain scene we both loved because it interrupted the flow of the story too much. When she pointed it out, I saw her point and out it came. She wanted to delete a separare scene because she didn't see how it fit, and when I explained it she said "I can't believe I misssed that" and in it stayed.

novicewriter · May 7, 2018

I kind of thought beta-readers were supposed to give advice based on agents' rules or guidelines and/or what they've said causes them to reject queries (i.e., convoluted queries with too many characters and plot mentioned, when agents say they prefer it to be simplified, where the focus is on the main plot and MC's journey), to help the author polish it in a way so that the author's query won't be immediately rejected; that's what I try to do, anyway.

Bufty · May 7, 2018

Beta readers aren't gatekeepers for Agents - they're sample members of the reading public, your intended audience.

ap123 · May 7, 2018

As others have pointed out, this is why it's good to have multiple betas. I like to have betas who write/are familiar with multiple genres, too, because I find different genres have different strengths. We try to make each mss the best it can be, but no one's words will be wholly and universally loved by all. I take each crit on its own, then look for commonalities (is that a word? suddenly seems wrong to me) amongst all, then think about what I'm trying to communicate with that word/sentence/scene.

Polenth · May 7, 2018

novicewriter said:
I kind of thought beta-readers were supposed to give advice based on agents' rules or guidelines and/or what they've said causes them to reject queries (i.e., convoluted queries with too many characters and plot mentioned, when agents say they prefer it to be simplified, where the focus is on the main plot and MC's journey), to help the author polish it in a way so that the author's query won't be immediately rejected; that's what I try to do, anyway.

The query needs to be concise and not have too many characters or plots. That doesn't mean the novel can only have one character and main plot. Most novels have many characters and subplots. A beta is not there to act as an imaginary agent, but to react as a reader.

Chris P · May 8, 2018

novicewriter said:
I kind of thought beta-readers were supposed to give advice based on agents' rules or guidelines and/or what they've said causes them to reject queries (i.e., convoluted queries with too many characters and plot mentioned, when agents say they prefer it to be simplified, where the focus is on the main plot and MC's journey), to help the author polish it in a way so that the author's query won't be immediately rejected; that's what I try to do, anyway.

This would be more of a gamma reader, I think, and the only equivalent I can think of would be a "book doctor" or "agent finder" type of person. As of now, these are largely unnecessary, often scammy (even with the purest of intentions) and I doubt many people use them.

I can totally see this becoming a thing, though. Wherever there is money to be made people will attempt to do so, and if it adds value to the industry it would take off. However, as the industry is now they don't add value.

Bufty · May 8, 2018

Beta readers read finished manuscripts, usually as a last step before considering submission.

As an unpaid beta reader my focus would be purely and simply on the flow and content and clarity of the novel being read. And it would be my personal reactions to what I was reading.

You can indicate to a beta reader if you want them to focus on a particular aspect, but there are no beta-reader rules to be followed.

Beta reading has nothing to do with writing a Query Letter.

novicewriter said:
I kind of thought beta-readers were supposed to give advice based on agents' rules or guidelines and/or what they've said causes them to reject queries (i.e., convoluted queries with too many characters and plot mentioned, when agents say they prefer it to be simplified, where the focus is on the main plot and MC's journey), to help the author polish it in a way so that the author's query won't be immediately rejected; that's what I try to do, anyway.

When Betas Collide

S.I. Mansson

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!

BethS

S.I. Mansson

Simpson17866

Sonsofthepharaohs

Still writing the ancient Egyptian tetralogy

WriteMinded

Derailed

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

AW Admin

frimble3

Heckuva good sport

S.I. Mansson

S.I. Mansson

S.I. Mansson

WeaselFire

Benefactor Member

Earthling

I come in peace

Twick

Qwest

Here on a catnap

Emily Patrice

Chris P

Likes metaphors mixed, not stirred

novicewriter

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

ap123

Twitching

Polenth

Mushroom

Chris P

Likes metaphors mixed, not stirred

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?