Would you sign with a publisher...

The Black Prince · Apr 23, 2018

All of those points are perfectly valid (except for wanting me to recall exact details of another person's contract from several years ago) but people keep portraying me as advising the OP to go ahead and sign the contract regardless of its terms. That is NOT what I said. I merely said that an apparently bad deal - when you're desperate to be published - doesn't have to turn out badly.

I had a story to illuminate my perspective, and that's it...a different perspective.

People still have to go into these things with their eyes open and be prepared to own their decisions in the dark jungle.

The Black Prince · Apr 23, 2018

I should add that the publishing biz is much much smaller in Australia than the US or Europe. I'm guessing the options for writers are fewer here which further influences my perspective and some of the colourful responses to it.

Ari Meermans · Apr 24, 2018

The Black Prince said:
All of those points are perfectly valid (except for wanting me to recall exact details of another person's contract from several years ago) but people keep portraying me as advising the OP to go ahead and sign the contract regardless of its terms. That is NOT what I said. I merely said that an apparently bad deal - when you're desperate to be published - doesn't have to turn out badly.

I had a story to illuminate my perspective, and that's it...a different perspective.

People still have to go into these things with their eyes open and be prepared to own their decisions in the dark jungle.

Oh, that's absolutely what you said. Your very first post in this thread was this one:

Just to play devil's advocate for a moment...

Getting into the mainstream is hard so if you have a viable offer - go for it. You may have to sue the publisher also but the publicity might be worth it for your career long term.

"You may have to sue the publisher . . ." Really? Who enters into a contract with that expectation? Sure, publishers can be guilty of breach of contract and may have to be sued, but a sound contract provides the author the expectation of relief in such an eventuality. And bringing suit should be an author's last recourse, not their first.

Your perspective, as stated above and throughout the thread, holds the potential for serious harm.

You can certainly dodge the requests for specifics; but, after so many have explained why they asked for the specifics of a contract situation you introduced, don't pretend there is no validity to those requests. Again, and if needed, we asked in order to determine relevance to the OP's situation.

be frank · Apr 24, 2018

The Black Prince said:
I should add that the publishing biz is much much smaller in Australia than the US or Europe. I'm guessing the options for writers are fewer here which further influences my perspective and some of the colourful responses to it.

You're not the only Aussie in this thread.

Whether a writer is based here or in the US or in the UK or in NZ or in Iceland or in Nigeria ... a bad contract is a bad contract is a bad contract.

Helix · Apr 24, 2018

Seconding Be Frank here.

And even a standard Aussie royalty deal would have been a nice little earner on 50,000 copies. Think how much worse it would have been if the publisher had bailed on paying any royalties at all.

EMaree · Apr 24, 2018

The Black Prince said:
In fact my sister was confronted with a very similar dilemma in 2015. She had been trying to be published since the late 80s and at last she was offered publication by a small but mainstream publisher - after nearly 30 years of trying. She showed me the contract because she had concerns about it - and rightly so. It was a bit of a rip off, overwhelmingly favouring the publisher but I knew she was torn, despite her mild outrage at the contract. I said to her: "Do you have more books in you?" and she replied, that yes, she had lots more ideas. So I said: "If you have confidence in your ability to keep producing, you could just see this contract as an investment in your writing future. This will at least get you onto the shelves and develop your brand."

So she signed the terrible contract. The book has sold over 50,000 copies in Australia (which is a lot here) - she's been featured on major network TV - she's done heaps of appearances and readings - she's made some money (not near as much as she should have) - and now she's very well known in her sector of the market and has signed a much better contract for her next book. She is now in exactly the place she wanted to be as a writing professional.

I was offered a contract by a small publisher back in '03 -- this was in Scotland, so a similar sense of 'well we're not exactly swimming in publishing options on this small island' and also 'this is the only way I'll see a book on the shelves, self-publishing can't make that happen'.

I sold 35,000 copies (which is a lot here! It was a middle-grade book, too, so not the biggest market) and the publisher promptly took the profits and left the country. Attempting to sue has been useless because on paper the company is flat broke, and besides, how am I supposed to sue when I made nothing? Legal proceedings are expensive and stressful.

I'm well known in my local area! I've done heaps of appearances, readings, school talks, TV appearances and news appearances. But hey, guess what, none of that = stable income.

I am currently where I want to be as a writer... but that's because I'm stubborn as hell and didn't give up, not because I took a chance on a unwise business decision. I've moved forward in spite of bad business dealings, not because of them. I suspect your sister is in the same situation: she got to where she is now by being really bloody good, not because she signed a subpar contract. It sounds like she's working her backside off to promote her work and she's seeing the results of that.

(I'm very curious about how much the publisher helped her, and how much they invested in marketing her before she took off.)

By saying her success is all thanks to signing a weak boilerplate contract, you're devaluing just how hard your sister has worked for her successes. By not realising how much of an outlier your example is, you are giving dangerous and incredibly naive advice.

Your sister's story is lovely, but it is not how these things usually go.

nighttimer · Apr 24, 2018

The Black Prince said:
It was a very bad royalty rate and a bunch of other rights for them and restrictions for her. They've made a lot of money out of her.

It may not have been dishonesty (they did the sleazery pre-contract) but it was still deliberate exploitation of bargaining position. The point is, she knew she was getting ripped off but took the deal anyway because she backed herself to rise above it and use the profile the deal gave her.

Well, it's nice things turned out right for your sister, but to blithely shrug off a shitty contract to get published and then hope you don't get totally screwed seems like awful advice to me.

The Black Prince said:
She rationalized her decision by hoping the book would be successful enough to give her a better deal next time and that's exactly what happened.

Many of you would not (apparently) have signed that deal but given her success there's no way you can say she was wrong to do so.

Oh, sure we can. By sharing this story of your sis getting scammed you opened the door for us to criticize the deal. A deal with the devil you know is doing you hard and dirty is still a deal with the devil and going into it eyes open and aware doesn't make it sound any sweeter.

Perhaps my standards are impossibly high, but while I'd love to see my name on the spine of a published book, I'm not going to sell myself cheap or take any lousy offer that comes my way. Sometimes being desperate will compel you to take a second look at a rotten deal and say, "Well, yes, this is a crap sandwich, but I'll only nibble around the edges."

That's a rationalization too. Or at least it is until they stick the foul-smelling thing under your nose and say, "Take a big whiff and then take a bigger bite."

Nah. I'm good. I'd rather be unpublished than unprincipled. :rolleyes

Aggy B. · Apr 25, 2018

And, again for those at the back because I feel like this may have gotten a little lost in the discussion about "bad contracts". There is a marked difference between signing a contract with a subpar royalty rate and still being paid what one is owed, and signing a contract (good or bad) with the knowledge that the publisher has not paid authors what they were owed in the past. That is not just a "bad contract" that's actually theft and it's a significant red flag.

The Black Prince · Apr 25, 2018

EMaree said:
By saying her success is all thanks to signing a weak boilerplate contract, you're devaluing just how hard your sister has worked for her successes. By not realising how much of an outlier your example is, you are giving dangerous and incredibly naive advice.

Your sister's story is lovely, but it is not how these things usually go.

I've been wrongly portrayed or interpreted a lot in this thread but that takes the cake. Where did I say anything like that? I said (several times) she backed herself to succeed despite a terrible contract. She had belief in her work despite knowing she was going to be ripped off and that got her into a strong position now.

I've done nothing but talk up her achievement but you're suggesting I'm devaluing it?

Snitchcat · Apr 25, 2018

In other words, your sister intentionally entered a bad contract, but was prepared to do all the work to pull herself out of it while using it as a stepping stone? I'm getting the sense the publisher did nothing?

/derail

Back to topic.

To the OP:

I agree with the majority of posters on this thread: Better to stay unpublished than sign with a bad publisher, even if they've "improved" over the past few years.

My reasoning:

As I read the OP, I got a strong sense of doubt. I re-read the post a few times over the last few days to make sure I wasn't reading into it but that "negative vibe" remained. Personally, I think the OP knows what needs to be done -- it's coming through the original and subsequent posts that his instincts are saying "no, don't sign".

For me, that would be enough to say "no" to this publisher. Disappointed, angry, frustrated? Of course! After all this time! But, OTOH, I'm still free to look for something better. Not that this is a "grass is greener" thing, but more, "my work is worth more than this, and so'm I".

Good luck!

Fallen · Apr 26, 2018

From someone who has a lousy contract with a publisher: no. Don't sign a thing.

Ari Meermans · Apr 26, 2018

Just to catch everyone up: Maze Runner (the OP) has two things going—1.) His original question, which was how much of a red flag the several-years-old history of nonpayment of royalties is; and, 2.) What sounds like a boilerplate contract, which he has been attempting to negotiate (see his posts 34 and 36). So his situation is two-fold, and my question on how comfortable he is in negotiating that contract was, to some degree, how the discussion came to address both nonpayment of royalties and bad contracts in general.

The entire discussion points to the fact that you can't get so caught up in the contract terms that you fail to also take a long, hard look at the publisher themselves. The history of their treatment of their authors can raise major red flags which require further investigation and a whole lotta scrutiny before even thinking about signing. So.

AW Admin · Apr 26, 2018

Aggy B. said:
And, again for those at the back because I feel like this may have gotten a little lost in the discussion about "bad contracts". There is a marked difference between signing a contract with a subpar royalty rate and still being paid what one is owed, and signing a contract (good or bad) with the knowledge that the publisher has not paid authors what they were owed in the past. That is not just a "bad contract" that's actually theft and it's a significant red flag.

If they've ripped off other authors, they'll rip off you.

If one publisher wants a book, so will others. Run away.

Maze Runner · Apr 26, 2018

EMaree said:
I sold 35,000 copies (which is a lot here! It was a middle-grade book, too, so not the biggest market) and the publisher promptly took the profits and left the country. Attempting to sue has been useless because on paper the company is flat broke, and besides, how am I supposed to sue when I made nothing? Legal proceedings are expensive and stressful.

What a horrible story, I'm so sorry. It takes a big heart to not let something like that defeat you. I wish you the best. Writers (people) like you deserve everything.

Snitchcat said:
As I read the OP, I got a strong sense of doubt. I re-read the post a few times over the last few days to make sure I wasn't reading into it but that "negative vibe" remained. Personally, I think the OP knows what needs to be done -- it's coming through the original and subsequent posts that her instincts are saying "no, don't sign".

Good luck!

I'm always surprised by the generosity on this board. Maybe that says something about me, ha, or maybe the world I live in, but thank you. And, yes, you got the right sense of which way I was leaning. Still, I want to thank The Black Prince for presenting the other side of the argument. Again, generous.

Ari Meermans said:
The entire discussion points to the fact that you can't get so caught up in the contract terms that you fail to also take a long, hard look at the publisher themselves. The history of their treatment of their authors can raise major red flags which require further investigation and a whole lotta scrutiny before even thinking about signing. So.

Interesting, just yesterday I read an article about an old acquaintance. A guy I knew through business, not of choice. He was an impressive guy in a lot of ways, but he lacked in morals. Years later he's still at it, although in a different area, and has just been sentenced to prison for beating people out of a couple hundred large. Point is, I guess, people don't change. Not as a rule, and rarely in fundamental ways. This guy was a recently disbarred lawyer when I knew him.

I think I'm gonna decline the offer. Too many red flags. I don't have to tell you, any of you, how hard it is to make a real go of it in this business. I've been at it, for about as long as I've been on this board, have written four novels--the first two published in e-book form, and really kind of buried with those pubs, and two now on sub. I've already turned down two other offers on this book, so this will be the third. Ha, and of course, just about a half hour ago I got a rejection on a full on the other novel I'm subbing, so all in all, it's shaping up to be another promising day. Ah, I never thought I'd even get this far. Not sure where I'll go from here. Starting to feel like a fool--I mean, more of a fool than I usually do. Thanks again for everything, and hopefully this thread will help others in similar situations. Very cool people here.

Fallen · Apr 27, 2018

Maze Runner said:
Starting to feel like a fool--I mean, more of a fool than I usually do.

Don't. You're no fool for keeping your wits about you and asking. The dubious way some publishers treat authors is very real. I was happy with my publisher to start off with, but then I started noticing something. If the script wasn't handed by in a certain date, rights could be extended by a year (to start with). Only when the 1st edits were given back, they were only handed over weeks before this final date, leaving no reasonable time to do the edits and meet that date. That same script was then 'lost off the system' for months after 1st edits were handed over, pushing editing time closer to two years. It potentially allowed the publisher to keep the script for an extra year, despite the delay being theirs. Then later, that clause changed, stating that the publisher would keep extending that deadline indefinitely until a script was handed over, meaning they could potentially keep a script indefinitely, beyond the standard contract terms. And this was with series work and them offering a supposed comparable contract to the first. No termination clause except one that benefitted the publishers interest. When I offered them 1st right of refusal, then turned the offer down because of the contract, they said it was series work, and that they couldn't publish the script they did without the rest of the series, basically saying they'd sit on the one they did have until I signed the other.

Point being here, when I asked why they didn't allow the author any termination rights, their answer was: because authors have hurt us in the past. But that was their past, not mine, not any author who signed with them afterwards. So years make no difference for some publishers.

Ari Meermans · Apr 27, 2018

Fallen said:
Don't. You're no fool for keeping your wits about you and asking. The dubious way some publishers treat authors is very real. <snip>

^This. A thousand times this! Don't you dare feel foolish! Absolute Write exists for this very reason: to help each other to not just improve our writing skills but also to learn to navigate "out there". We LEARN from each other and we have each other's back. That's why we make such a big friggin' deal about being a community.

By the way and for what it's worth—Fools don't ask questions; they think they've got it all figured out because they've read a few blogs or a writing skills book or two and they're ready to go. Asking questions is damned smart.

Maze Runner · Apr 27, 2018

Thanks, Ari and Fallen, but I don't feel foolish for asking these questions or for posting this thread. I meant I was starting to feel foolish for continuing to write fiction, and for continuing to think I could get to a viable place with it. I'm sure many of us feel this way from time to time. It's entirely possible that I'm just not good enough. Maybe I could get there, eventually, but maybe I just don't have it in me to write a great novel. Not looking for sympathy, or assurances, just sharing my thoughts as honestly as I know how. It wouldn't be the worst thing that ever happened to me.

Ari Meermans · Apr 27, 2018

Maze Runner said:
Thanks, Ari and Fallen, but I don't feel foolish for asking these questions or for posting this thread. I meant I was starting to feel foolish for continuing to write fiction, and for continuing to think I could get to a viable place with it. I'm sure many of us feel this way from time to time. It's entirely possible that I'm just not good enough. Maybe I could get there, eventually, but maybe I just don't have it in me to write a great novel. Not looking for sympathy, or assurances, just sharing my thoughts as honestly as I know how. It wouldn't be the worst thing that ever happened to me.

Oh, good. I'm glad I misunderstood. :Hug2:

But, still . . .

We set ourselves up with unreasonable expectations, I think. We compare ourselves to those who have made it, never knowing or understanding what they went through to get there—you know, the overnight sensations who, in actuality, persevered for ten, twenty, or even thirty years to reach that breakout point. So we become discouraged and beatup on ourselves or quit when what we should do is stop and reassess how far we HAVE come and revel in the strides we've made in the craft. It's a hard slog, but if you can hold on to your joy, I think you should persevere. You quit only when that joy is irretrievably lost. Just my opinion and all that jazz.

I will say, however, a little self-knowledge goes a long way, and once one has discovered any endeavor (including pursuing a writing career) just isn't for them, it's okay to quit and find what does make them happy. If it is your decision to quit writing, I hope you'll stay with us as a part of the community. You have a lot to offer, yanno.

Siri Kirpal · Apr 27, 2018

Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

Point 1: You've written four novels. That's a huge accomplishment in its own right.

Point 2: In every other business, you're expected not to know the ropes at the beginning. Writers? My early novels aren't doing well = I'm doomed! But you know something, we have learning curves too.

From someone who is still working on the novel she started in 2006.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal

Maze Runner · Apr 27, 2018

Thanks, guys, feeling negative about it today, but who knows what tomorrow will bring? Just have to shake it off and see how I feel when I stick my head up again.

Everything's relative, and all things considered, life is good for me. So I won't complain or lick my wounds for too long. Thanks, everybody, and on an up-note, Friday night is just a few hours away. Hope everyone has a ball.

DanielSTJ · May 3, 2018

Sounds like a recipe for disaster. Yikes!

No, I would not sign with said publisher.

nighttimer · May 4, 2018

Maze Runner said:
Thanks, Ari and Fallen, but I don't feel foolish for asking these questions or for posting this thread. I meant I was starting to feel foolish for continuing to write fiction, and for continuing to think I could get to a viable place with it. I'm sure many of us feel this way from time to time. It's entirely possible that I'm just not good enough. Maybe I could get there, eventually, but maybe I just don't have it in me to write a great novel. Not looking for sympathy, or assurances, just sharing my thoughts as honestly as I know how. It wouldn't be the worst thing that ever happened to me.

I'm a writer and a journalist and I'm not a motivational speaker. But here's what I am: I'm good at what I do.

Not bragging, simply stating a fact. I'm a damn good writer and not because I have a best-seller on the NY Times book list or because I'm blowing up Amazon or because I have to keep a baseball bat behind the door to fend off the literary groupies jumping out of the bushes.

I'm good now because I was bad then. Setbacks, heartbreaks, bad luck, gaining experience, being disappointed, cranking out trash, banging my head against the wall and just generally paying my dues is how I went from being a bad writer to a good writer. If anything I suffer from over-confidence.

If possible, I would highly recommend joining a writer's group, Maze Runner and if you can't find one, start one. Find those like-minded souls who are fighting the good fight same as you are and commiserate with them. You'd be surprised to find out how many others are stuck in a deeper and darker hole than you are and would cut off valuable body parts to get where you already are. I've been part of a group for over a decade now and it has been an immense aid to me.

Sometimes you just need to be around someone who isn't simply sympathetic to your plight, but empathetic because they know exactly what you're going through.

Oh, and don't sign no crappy contracts. It's b.s. and it's bad for ya.

KTC · May 4, 2018

nighttimer said:
I'm a writer and a journalist and I'm not a motivational speaker. But here's what I am: I'm good at what I do.

Not bragging, simply stating a fact. I'm a damn good writer and not because I have a best-seller on the NY Times book list or because I'm blowing up Amazon or because I have to keep a baseball bat behind the door to fend off the literary groupies jumping out of the bushes.

I'm good now because I was bad then. Setbacks, heartbreaks, bad luck, gaining experience, being disappointed, cranking out trash, banging my head against the wall and just generally paying my dues is how I went from being a bad writer to a good writer. If anything I suffer from over-confidence.

If possible, I would highly recommend joining a writer's group, Maze Runner and if you can't find one, start one. Find those like-minded souls who are fighting the good fight same as you are and commiserate with them. You'd be surprised to find out how many others are stuck in a deeper and darker hole than you are and would cut off valuable body parts to get where you already are. I've been part of a group for over a decade now and it has been an immense aid to me.

Sometimes you just need to be around someone who isn't simply sympathetic to your plight, but empathetic because they know exactly what you're going through.

Oh, and don't sign no crappy contracts. It's b.s. and it's bad for ya.

I like this!

And YES to the writing group! Changed my life! I joined a community umbrella organization WCDR...and within it, I have found several writing groups through the years. Critique groups, on-the-spot writing groups, etc, etc. I'm lucky...the organization is 300 strong. There's always splinter groups joining and folding in and coming up with something else. It's such a vibrant experience. I'm constantly motivated by the companionship of the other writers in the group. If you can find one, join it! (-:

Would you sign with a publisher...

The Black Prince

The Black Prince

Ari Meermans

MacAllister's Official Minion & Greeter

be frank

not a bloke, not named frank

Helix

socially distancing

EMaree

a demon for tea

nighttimer

No Gods No Masters

Aggy B.

Not as sweet as you think

The Black Prince

Snitchcat

Dragon-kitty.

Fallen

Stood at the coalface

Ari Meermans

MacAllister's Official Minion & Greeter

AW Admin

Maze Runner

Fallen

Stood at the coalface

Ari Meermans

MacAllister's Official Minion & Greeter

Maze Runner

Ari Meermans

MacAllister's Official Minion & Greeter

Siri Kirpal

Swan in Process

Maze Runner

DanielSTJ

The Wandering Bard

nighttimer

No Gods No Masters

KTC

Stand in the Place Where You Live