People who knock the wind out of your sails

Tepelus · Apr 18, 2018

This is kind of a rant/discussion post.

I was having a conversation with my mother last night about my art. I write and draw, graphite pencil art my preferred medium, and lately I hadn't been doing much writing but got back into drawing again, and currently I'm working on a drawing of Theda Bara, of which I've created an album on Facebook open to the public showing my progression. I told my mom I wouldn't mind doing commission work to make some extra money on the side, but I needed to create a portfolio of some more recent work and put up on a simple website showing those examples and what I would charge, etc. Portrait work seems to be the thing I'm good at right now, and I can draw both animals and people. Lately I've been drawing people from the past, Oscar Wilde, Theda Bara, and I would like to start on a collage on Charlie Chaplin.

She says to me, your art work is really good, but nobody knows who Oscar Wilde and Theda Bara are. You should draw people in our times, people that others will know and care about. Like Beyonce. This was after I had said that there are people out there that collect memorabilia and art of certain celebrities and pay good money for this kind of stuff. So I sat there just wanting to get up and leave, but instead I remained in my seat and was silent. She says there would be more people wanting to buy my art if I drew stuff people wanted.

There's been discussion here and in other places about drawing/writing what interests you, and your audience will come to you and to not chase trends. Of course, one must get their name out there to do so, but why, with writing or drawing, would one want to create things one is not passionate about with the hope of chasing after an audience? It would be like telling a writer, don't write in that genre though you're good at it. I don't care that you have had good response to your work and maybe even made money from it, you could do better if you wrote in this other genre and go after that audience instead since that genre is more popular than the one you're writing now. Which reminds me of an art piece I did for a fundraiser auction last December. I drew a picture of an old mill that no longer exists in my town, and wouldn't you know it, that thing sold for $500, not because I knew someone was going to buy that drawing no matter what because it meant something to them, I drew it because I wanted to, and I enjoyed drawing it.

So I sat down at my table last night, my mother's words still in my mind, and pulled out the drawing. I looked at it for a bit, then put it away and decided to go to bed early instead of working on it. Nothing like having the wind knocked from your sails. I will go back to finishing it up, I'm about 3/4 of the way done with it. But it sure stings when you have someone close to you tell you how to do your art instead of appreciating the things you create. Like a bee sting, it is temporary and I'll go back to creating as before.

How about all of you? How do you cope with people telling you how to do your art instead of supporting you?

Larry M · Apr 18, 2018

Tepelus said:
How about all of you? How do you cope with people telling you how to do your art instead of supporting you?

I play guitar and sing in a band (we don't play often, it's just for fun, when time permits.) We played a gig one recent day and after, a woman told me that we would have a lot more fans if we played modern music (meaning the hits of today.)

I told her we play what we like. We do this because we like playing, and we play the songs that appeal to us.

I have zero interest in playing the hit songs that are popular now; it's not my music - it's not my art.

Do what moves you.

davidjgalloway · Apr 18, 2018

Yeah, that's not fun. But it sounds like you have your head in the right place, and just need to let that "helpful suggestion" go. I think we all hope that even if the final product is not "commercial," at least if it comes from passion it will be genuine, and that in some ways that supersedes anything else.

Now, of course, if your goal is to make as much money as possible, that's your goal, and you should chase it. But if not, then why can't you be happy making things you believe in?

I don't have anyone actively undermining me, but I was surprised at how different family reactions were to the idea of reading something I'd written. My oldest daughter, who's a reader like me, just never was interested. Same with my youngest daughter, who's really not a reader. But my son, who I have to push to read anything, has read all three books and keeps pushing for more (and he read them FAST.) Very curious. It's nice to have a cheerleader--I just thought I might have more. (I'll leave aside my mother's judgment, she who read one book and said, "Cute." Not what I was going for.) But I haven't had anyone say, "You should write X instead." That's pretty demoralizing.

Then again, to be fair, I wonder if it's right to even expect much at all. Creative work is so personal, and while one person might be making something that's accessible and understandable to others, another might not. Is it too much to expect that people can appreciate art for what it is without trying to make it into something else? And do you think those suggestions can proceed from a desire to help instead of being malicious? I think so--or at least I want to think so.

Maggie Maxwell · Apr 18, 2018

Nobody knows who-

NOBODY KNOWS WHO OSCAR WILDE IS?!?!!

What WORLD does your mother live in?

No, I have not heard of Theda Bara before, but guess what? I have this fantastic little thing called Google, and from a very quick look, I'm going to guess that fans of classic movies sure as hell do, and they would also probably want what is a DAMN good drawing of her. Charlie Chaplin and Oscar Wilde? Absolutely! Our parents sometimes just don't have a clue about what we're doing and why and think they're helping when they're just knocking us down. It's happened to me with my writing, and I'm sorry it's happened to you. Your work is fantastic and you should keep it up. Don't listen to her. There are hundreds of artists drawing Beyonce for people who want drawings of Beyonce. The market may not be as big for Theda Bara, but all it'll take is one person looking for it to find you.

sideshowdarb · Apr 18, 2018

Moms are tough.

Someone telling you what you should do with your art is like you telling someone else what to name their kid. It's not how it works.

Bufty · Apr 18, 2018

I'm sure I'd have noticed if anything I'd said to my kids had 'knocked the wind out of their sales'. I'd not have left that unresolved.

Sorry this has happened to you- it must be tough. And Oscar Wilde? I suspect a poll would show the majority knew who he was.

Follow your own talent and instinct. Good luck. :Hug2:

Albedo · Apr 18, 2018

I've never thought 'you know what I need? Some pictures of current celebrities for my wall'. I'm not saying there's not a market for blowups of Beyonce, but even people who buy velvet wall hangings are buying them of Elvis and Jesus Christ, not contemporary celebs.

I didn't know Theda Bara's name, but I recognise her face. As for 'noone knows who Oscar Wilde is' ... I just can't even. Bless yer Mum's heart.

When I buy art it's because something caught my eye in a gallery or a show. It has to say something special to me, and I'd wager that it had to speak something to the creator as well. Art is a transaction. It requires that alignment of tastes, IMO. Art produced without care for the subject isn't art, it's illustration (except that great illustration is also good art).

shakeysix · Apr 18, 2018

Of course I know Oscar Wilde and Theda Bara. It is always annoying when someone believes that his ignorance is shared by everyone else in the entire world. One can find celebrity faces anywhere--everywhere. The market is saturated. There has to be a market for interesting, forgotten faces. Go with what you are doing. To your own self be true. Who knows better than you what you want to do?

Your mother was only trying to protect you from what she sees as a risky move. I am probably 20 years older than your mother and I have grown daughters of my own to drive nuts. Over the years I have learned that my daughters generally have better instincts than i do when it comes to child rearing, career moves and general life choices. I still do mistrust their driving, wardrobe choices and child discipline. From time to time Mom has to say something, but you don't have to listen. --s6

Carrie in PA · Apr 18, 2018

Right before my short story was published, I was super excited and proud... and showed it to my mom. Who literally took a pen out of her purse and started marking it up, while I'm sitting there like... wtf is happening right now?

Then my grandmother, who is an avid reader of fiction, reads it. The entire time, her face looks like she's handling a skunk's freshly deployed stink sac. When she finishes, she says, "This could never happen."

So I don't have any advice, but I can commiserate!

ishtar'sgate · Apr 18, 2018

My brother is an artist so I've followed his progress. Any venue for showcasing your work is a good idea and it's your passion that will sell your art - eventually. It takes time to build interest in your work. Watch for any means to get your work out there in your area or beyond. Enter art contests, submit entries to art shows. Once you have a collection, take it to a small gallery and see if one of your pieces resonates with them and they'll exhibit it. The more times your work is seen in a variety of venues the better your chances of finding buyers. My brother has been at it for years and now has people who collect his work, galleries that ask for pieces from him. One thing he did that might interest you is to paint 100 portraits in a year. He got volunteers to sit for him from the community and once he was finished, a small gallery gave him a show that was well attended and garnered him portrait commissions plus raised interest in his other work. Early on he entered a wine label contest and won. Every time someone bought that wine, there was his art, right on the label. Don't be discouraged. People often cannot understand that passion drives art. Make sure you come back here and let AW know when you're having your online show and good luck with it.

Albedo · Apr 18, 2018

17yo me to a beloved relative: no, this is a story about a serial killer. I am not confessing to being a serial killer. DO YOU EVEN FICTION, WOMAN?

Lavern08 · Apr 18, 2018

Tepelus said:
...How about all of you? How do you cope with people telling you how to do your art instead of supporting you?

I don't even discuss what I do (create brand names, slogans, taglines, etc.) with non-writers - They just don't get it. :Shrug:

Ari Meermans · Apr 18, 2018

I'm naturally contrary. All my life other people have told me what I can't or shouldn't do, and that just strengthens my determination. Or, as my dad used to put it, "Telling her no is like saying sic 'em to a dog." Nobody knows what you can and can't do like you do—and you're going to be wrong on the can't-do at least a third of the time.

As I approach the end of my seventh decade, I find my advice for this sort of thing is: Go for the happy, babies. Do what makes you happy.

Lakey · Apr 18, 2018

Interactions with parents can often be more fraught than they otherwise would be. Tepelus, I wonder if you'd have had such a strong reaction if the comment had come from, say, a stranger overhearing your conversation in a cafe. If not, then try to pretend that is who said it - not your mother.

My mother was never interested in my nonfiction writing, even when I became a not-entirely unknown critic of Indian movies and had my essays published in a magazine that is in India similar to what Time magazine is here in the states. She always spoke about with a bit of a sneer, oh I suppose you're busy watching more of those Indian movies this weekend, that sort of thing. It drove me up a wall because my mother is an artist and I was always supportive of her painting and attended all the juried shows she got into and went to see her work in the cooperative gallery she was part of for a while, even though visual art isn't really my thing.

Then I had a short story published a month or two ago - barely a publication, in a wee online journal of a wee online university - and my mother was beside herself with pride. I posted a link to the story on Facebook and my mom shared it with everyone she knew and made all her friends read it. A regular column in a national Indian news-magazine meant nothing to her, but a dinky little short story sent her over the moon.

For my mom, I guess, it was about what she can relate to. She understands what fiction is, values it herself, and can appreciate why someone would write it. Intellectual critique of another culture's cinema, she couldn't relate to so much. That she was sneering about it is an unfortunate part of our particular mother-daughter dynamic, and it was on me not to take her sneering to heart. Maybe your mother is having a similar issue - maybe she can't relate to visual art for its own sake, and only thinks it's worth doing if it generates income. Or maybe she's hearing you say you want to do it for commission and thinks she needs to give you motherly "advice" on how to do that. From her perspective, she might even have thought she was being helpful, but perhaps it's part of your mother-daughter dynamic that it's hard for you to hear her as anything other than critical.

TL;DR: ... don't listen to her!

lizmonster · Apr 18, 2018

Yeah, parents are...weird. I show my stuff to my mom, but my dad? Hell, no. Not that he'd be critical. He wouldn't be critical. But what I wrote would be OMG THE BEST THING EVER WHERE'S YOUR PULITZER YOU WERE ROBBED even though he wouldn't have read closely enough to remember the MC's name, and the conversation would be so full of insane hyperbole every word would be meaningless.

It's not true for everyone, I'm sure, but most of the artists I know draw/write/compose because they're driven to do it from the inside. External validation is helpful, and can really be useful when times are tough; but we share our art because it's scrambling to climb out of us and into the real world.

Your mom is wrong. Draw what you love. (Also, add me to the list of people who know who Oscar Wilde and Theda Bera are.)

mrsmig · Apr 18, 2018

My mother has always been convinced that "the way to success" for me is to write a children's book. She decided that back when I first started writing fiction back in college. No matter how often I tell her I'm not interested in writing for kids; no matter how many short stories and books I've published, she always asks when I'm going to write that kids' book.

She's 97 now so it's been going on for a long, long time and has even gained family joke status. I love her dearly so I try to shrug it off, but sometimes it's really hard.

(P.S. My mom always told me I had Theda Bara eyes, except blue)

folclor · Apr 18, 2018

I'm lucky as my dad's an artist and has been my entire life. He didn't make much until recently when he start painting things from around my hometown. Old buildings, houses, all of that. He has started making a steady income like that, but he didn't do it because he thought it would be easier money, he did it because he wanted to document the town. He grew up there, too, after all. This does lead into people commissioning for drawings of their homes, which he's less enthused about, but he gets to paint and draw every day now.

And, yeah, having a supportive parent is actually nice. Don't chase trends. Just draw or paint what you want.

Chase · Apr 18, 2018

mrsmig said:
My mother has always been convinced that "the way to success" for me is to write a children's book. She decided that back when I first started writing fiction back in college. No matter how often I tell her I'm not interested in writing for kids; no matter how many short stories and books I've published, she always asks when I'm going to write that kids' book.

She's 97 now so it's been going on for a long, long time and has even gained family joke status. I love her dearly so I try to shrug it off, but sometimes it's really hard.

(P.S. My mom always told me I had Theda Bara eyes, except blue)

I'm sorry. I wasn't paying attention, 'cause all I can think about is when will your children's story be published? :Shrug:

blacbird · Apr 18, 2018

shakeysix said:
It is always annoying when someone believes that his ignorance is shared by everyone else in the entire world.

I try damn hard to share my ignorance with everyone else in the entire world, but nobody pays any attention.

caw

Siri Kirpal · Apr 18, 2018

Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

I learned this lesson a long time ago: Do Not Show Creative Works To Parents...until it's irrevocable.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal

Elenitsa · Apr 18, 2018

I have a similar mother, who tells me what I should write and tried once to mark my printed manuscript... I will write novels focused on my country when I feel inspiration. There are other countries' values to discover too... And they need people to document and write it.

Harlequin · Apr 18, 2018

My parents have been saying since childhood, If you really want to write why aren't you constantly publishing? I've seen this misconception a lot from nonwriters; the belief that writing is not only linear like more conventional careers, but also that it's intrinsically linked.

If you can write novels that must mean you are equally capable of writing short stories, movie scripts, journalism articles, essays, and nonfiction textbooks, etc etc. It's all just writing, isn't it? It's all equally interesting to do, yes? And if you're not trying to write in as many different forms as possible you're not really good at it. A real writer would be publishing everythign in every format conceivable, or trying to, constantly; high output = high success.

They were surprised when I sold some short stories pubbed this year; I think they really believe(d) I'm completely delusional. They've asked to read those, but I'm going to refuse because I don't write Christian literature, so they'd only tear it down. The novels (wip and done alike) we don't discuss because they still don't take those seriously, and probably never will.

Family, eh?

kneedeepinthedoomed · Apr 18, 2018

I'm not doing that anymore. My brother is a writer, but he writes autobiographical stuff and I write videogames. He just doesn't want to talk about either my work or his own. The rest of my family either read it and can't really comment, or won't read it, or will say they are really interested but never read it either. It's like dumping my stuff into a black hole it never emerges from, so I've learned to just not do that.

In the family, my project has become the Project That Must Not Be Named. They can't even remember the title. It's just not named, ever. If it comes to describing it, they will say, oh yes, he works at the computer a lot. That's what people tend to be able to process. A simple image. That leads to the idea that I'm internet addicted or games addicted, somehow, because what else can you do at a computer for hours, right? So there is an undertone of pity and concern whenever it's mentioned.

And my mom went to art school, and my brother is a published writer, and e-mails to both just fall off a cliff. So I've resorted to only writing short, surface level, enthusiastically positive mails, because those are the only ones that ever get replies.

It's just how it is.

Even video game developers usually don't want to read script, not even three pages, it's like everybody switches off when I mention scriptwriting.They react to screenshots, maybe. Visual triggers. That's all. But you say "do you want to read..." and everyone leaves the room in a panic. It's quite funny.

That makes it a pretty lonely job.

P.S. often your parents have this idea of who and what you are, or what your talents are, that's just not realistic anymore, if it ever was. My mom thinks I should "work with children" because I would be awesome at that and it would be so rewarding. Newsflash: I'm 43 and still have no children... but the suggestion comes up again and again, once or twice a year. It's unkillable: kneedeep, the guy who plays (and makes...) violent videogames, should totally work with toddlers.

I have long hair and look like a Polish viking. I can give a toddler one look and they'll probably start to cry. Else I can show them how to make a paper church and set it on fire. Like the Heavy Metal Babysitter.

Totally good with children. Yep.

Harlequin · Apr 18, 2018

yes... I hear you on that.

mine think I should teach--still are pushing that route.

It's a good day if I leave the house with wallet AND keys; I'm too disorganised to manage some kind of schedule or keep track of paperwork. And I can barely look after my own smalls, let alone a classroom of them. Add in all the time keeping and self discipline etc etc plus the whole anxiety inducing nightmare that teaching is, and... no.

mrsmig · Apr 18, 2018

Chase said:
I'm sorry. I wasn't paying attention, 'cause all I can think about is when will your children's story be published?

People who knock the wind out of your sails

And so...

Opus is my guy.

Making Einstein cry since 1994

Where have the last ten years gone?

Alex

blue eyed floozy

Write All The Words!

living in the past

Alex

Sit Down, and Shut Up!

MacAllister's Official Minion & Greeter

professional dilettante

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

Write. Write. Writey Write Write.

Left-Handed Writing Fairy

It Takes All of Us to End Racism

Swan in Process

writing as Marina Costa

Eat books, not brains!

Eat books, not brains!

Write. Write. Writey Write Write.