Starbucks and Racism

Roxxsmom said:

I'm confused. How is calling the cops on two black guys who are minding their own business and not doing anything countless white people don't also do every day without harassment not an expression of racism?

The cops didn't shoot them this time, but this is exactly the kind of thing that has ended in shootings in other cases. If one of those cops had decided the situation warranted lethal force, he could have pulled the trigger, and chances are he wouldn't even have been tried for murder. That this case didn't end in tragedy doesn't mean it's not a reflection of racism. The fact that other tragedies are happening around us also doesn't mean this isn't outrageous.

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I don't want to comment for Nighttimer but in my view you can look at it in different ways.

First, when are vocabulary words interpreted the same by all? So there is that, what we hear when we hear the word, racism.

In one interpretation, discrimination and racism are two separate things. You can define them differently, give them different parameters.

In another they are words on a continuum with 'overt racial hatred' racism on one end and subconscious stereotyping on the other.

Racial discrimination is a form of racism, but what good is it to use racism terminology if it creates a barrier to getting people to hear you. You hear it in their arguments saying the men were loitering. People with that POV are often in denial that racism exists.

But instead if you direct the conversation to terminology that doesn't create that barrier— The men were treated poorly because they were black, or because the manager jumped to false conclusions about the men and the fact they were black males is one obvious factor— then you have a greater chance of influencing racism deniers.

Framing matters when you are communicating.

cbenoi1 said:

Wait. Let me get the whole story straight here.

Two guys walk into a coffee shop, sit down for two minutes - about the time it takes for the manager to notice them, finish what she's doing, and walk to their table - and are then asked to leave?

That sounds pretty damned extreme if you want to have clients around to make a buck.

Sorry but that begs the question: have they done this before - I mean walk into that particular shop and linger without buying anything?

-cb

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Not exactly. Two men walked in and asked to use the restroom. The manager apparently assumed they were not potential customers, made no effort to confirm that, and told them the bathroom was for customers only. They sat at a table waiting for their friend before ordering.

I'm not sure from there who told whom what but the manager continued with her tunnel vision, seeing nothing else and called the police.

MaeZe said:

Not exactly. Two men walked in and asked to use the restroom.The manager apparently assumed they were not potential customers, made no effort to confirm that, and told them the bathroom was for customers only. They sat at a table waiting for their friend before ordering. I'm not sure from there who told whom what but the manager continued with her tunnel vision, seeing nothing else and called the police.

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I have problems wrapping my mind around this event. From a strict business perspective.

It makes no sense to kick customers out. Potential or not. Racial bias is certainly a factor here, but some other problem must have reached some limit before the police had to be called in. You don't call the police on innocuous things. Not in a big-name franchise.

-cb

AW Admin said:

Two articles that I think are particularly worth careful reading:

From The Washington Post: What white people can learn from the Starbucks arrests

Via The Root: From Starbucks to Hashtags: We Need to Talk About Why White Americans Call the Police on Black People

I would really like to be able to dismiss this as more about a bad employee response, but I can't, because ultimately the core issue is that the two men were black, not what they were doing or not doing, not what the employee should have done, but that the two men were black. That's pretty much the bottom line; it's arrested while being black.

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Exactly my thought upon reading the article.

MaeZe said:

In one interpretation, discrimination and racism are two separate things. You can define them differently, give them different parameters.

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Discrimination and racism are different things. Discrimination is one thing that happens as a consequence of racism. Of course discrimination could occur for other reasons besides someone's race, but it seems like race was the factor in this case.

I thought racism is an institutional (or society level) bias against people of some races and not others. If personal biases based on race aren't a form of racism (though how can we call a person who discriminates against someone based on race a racist then), then maybe the restaurant manager's call wasn't an example of racism. But when the police showed up and arrested two men who had done nothing wrong, I'd argue it would indeed be racism in action, since that represents and institutional or societal bias. I doubt the cops would have arrested two white people in the same situation.

I'd argue that personal biases cross the line into racism (or any other kind of "ism") when they reinforce society-wide inequities.

I'm reluctant to mince words and avoid calling an act of racial discrimination racism just because it hurts some poor white folks' fee fees.

Note that NT knows far more about this than I ever can, and I probably should defer to his judgment on this, but it seems at odds with what I though (perhaps erroneously) he has said on the subject in the past.

I've been following this thread since it first went up, but have found myself returning back to this point Maeze made early on in the conversation.

MaeZe said:

Seems like I have this debate with people every time this comes up. They don't believe the discrimination is as bad as it is. Even after multiple wrongful deaths of young black men at the hands of police are on video for all to see, they retreat into the comfort of their denial.

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This has stuck with me because I've witnessed such discrimination multiple times "in my own backyard" at the local big box retail/grocery I frequent where I live in the burbs. There's almost always a cop car stationed outside said retailer...and often in the evening, I've seen a cop car trolling thru the parking lot. On one such occasion, I was headed out to my car with my bags of groceries. A middle-aged, nicely dressed black man who was clearly on his way home, having run a few errands after work I would guess, was walking toward his car ahead of me in the parking lot. Troller cruiser was out and stopped by his car, basically blocking him in, then began harassing him with questions. For no reason.

He was just walking out to his car, same as me, with groceries. But who got pinged? Yeah.

My question: is there something we can be doing to stop this? That I could have done? It's been a while so I don't remember it in great detail, but I know I was irritated for the man, and also pissed at the cops because they were taking up the lane to get out and blocking me in across the way as well so I was glaring at them long and hard and finally flashed my lights to get them to move. I will admit I was too chicken to say anything to them though because a) I don't like confrontation, and b) what would I say? What would help? I don't even know where I'd begin.

I don't like seeing such things occur, so I'm genuinely asking if you all have some suggestions or steps that folks like me could take in such situations, rather than standing there feeling bad and glad that it's not me (knowing all the while it's not me because I'm the 'harmless-looking' white girl ).

tiddlywinks said:

.... What would help? I don't even know where I'd begin.

I don't like seeing such things occur, so I'm genuinely asking if you all have some suggestions or steps that folks like me could take in such situations, rather than standing there feeling bad and glad that it's not me (knowing all the while it's not me because I'm the 'harmless-looking' white girl ).

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Get your phone out if you have one and record the events.

Roxxsmom said:

Discrimination and racism are different things. Discrimination is one thing that happens as a consequence of racism. Of course discrimination could occur for other reasons besides someone's race, but it seems like race was the factor in this case.

I thought racism is an institutional (or society level) bias against people of some races and not others. If personal biases based on race aren't a form of racism (though how can we call a person who discriminates against someone based on race a racist then), then maybe the restaurant manager's call wasn't an example of racism. But when the police showed up and arrested two men who had done nothing wrong, I'd argue it would indeed be racism in action, since that represents and institutional or societal bias. I doubt the cops would have arrested two white people in the same situation.

I'd argue that personal biases cross the line into racism (or any other kind of "ism") when they reinforce society-wide inequities.

I'm reluctant to mince words and avoid calling an act of racial discrimination racism just because it hurts some poor white folks' fee fees.

Note that NT knows far more about this than I ever can, and I probably should defer to his judgment on this, but it seems at odds with what I though (perhaps erroneously) he has said on the subject in the past.

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I would not argue with any of this in a debate with people I wasn't trying to influence.

Nighttimer (going by his post) thought racism was so much worse than being discriminated against in a coffee shop. The focus on Starbucks was perhaps allowing people to think they care or did something when so many true tragedies were ignored.

That's a valid debate.

My POV is that it all matters, and something that gets the country's attention moves the ball forward even if not by much.

But my other desire is to communicate in a way that moves people. How you use language (framing) when you are trying to influence people matters. If you describe every kind of discrimination as racism, people who racially discriminate tune you out because they don't believe they are racists. You lose before you start.

In this forum, I have no issue with the different interpretations people have of labeling events like this. There is room for different views. If it was something like the Tamir Rice murder, I would not use milder language. I understand what Nighttimer was saying. I understand what you are saying. I hope people learn something from my discussion of communication and barriers to the same.

tiddlywinks said:

My question: is there something we can be doing to stop this? That I could have done? It's been a while so I don't remember it in great detail, but I know I was irritated for the man, and also pissed at the cops because they were taking up the lane to get out and blocking me in across the way as well so I was glaring at them long and hard and finally flashed my lights to get them to move. I will admit I was too chicken to say anything to them though because a) I don't like confrontation, and b) what would I say? What would help? I don't even know where I'd begin.

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The conversations I've seen on Twitter (and they are the opinions of individual people, obviously) are along the lines of "do what the white man in the Starbucks video is doing." In other words, if a white person sees something egregious, stand up for the black person--which isn't what you wanted to hear, because if you don't like confrontation (and a lot of us don't, especially with police-types), you'd have to do something you aren't comfortable with. But black people can't win this on their own. White people have to call out shitty racist behavior when we see it. Calmly, not centering ourselves, even if that might temporarily help the situation (like expressing dismay because I'm being inconvenienced, rather than the racist behavior being witnessed). The racist behavior itself has to be challenged. "This person and I were behaving in the exact same manner. What did he do for you to block him in?" Or in the case of the Starbucks, "What did they do wrong?"

Cops will probably tell you to back off, but if in the situation you describe, where you have witnessed absolutely no wrongdoing, there is nothing wrong with politely asking (and being a witness for a black person suffering an injustice, in case they need you later). Of course, it's a case by case thing (I probably wouldn't step between someone and a drawn gun), and taking a video is never a bad idea. Nor is reporting the behavior to the store, expressing your displeasure, telling them that if it keeps happening, you're going to go public with it. A cop behaving badly in their parking lot (especially if they've hired extra patrol) will certainly smear the store with negative attention if it gets out.

Entrenched, institutional racism means that to overcome it, black people cannot be expected to do the work alone. They must have active support from white people who say "this is not acceptable" at the time, not after the fact. We can't just say we're allies. We have to *actively* ally.

TL;DR Systemic racism one of the key features of the White Comfort Zone. To fight it means we *have* to step outside of that zone, one incident at a time if need be. I don't think there's any getting around that.

Thanks, Elaine.

Roxxsmom said:

I'm confused. How is calling the cops on two black guys who are minding their own business and not doing anything countless white people don't also do every day without harassment not an expression of racism?

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Well, let me see if I can expand on it then by expanding the definition a bit. There's a writer named Debby Irving, author of Waking Up White, and here's her examples:

Prejudice is when a person negatively pre-judges another person or group without getting to know the beliefs, thoughts, and feelings behind their words and actions. A person of any racial group can be prejudiced towards a person of any other racial group. There is no power dynamic involved.

Bigotry is stronger than prejudice, a more severe mindset and often accompanied by discriminatory behavior. It’s arrogant and mean-spirited, but requires neither systems nor power to engage in.

Racism is the system that allows the racial group that’s already in power to retain power. Since arriving on U.S. soil white people have used their power to create preferential access to survival resources (housing, education, jobs, food, health, legal protection, etc.) for white people while simultaneously impeding people of color’s access to these same resources.Though "reverse racism" is a term I sometimes hear, it has never existed in America. White people are the only racial group to have ever established and retained power in the United States.

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When we immediately dub an act such as what occurred at the Starsucks to be "racist" we've resorted to racial shorthand, rushed right by prejudice and bigotry (and I'd add "bias") and not necessarily correctly compartmentalized the situation. This is not peculiar to Whites either. Blacks are equally susceptible to go with the worst case scenario first.

If everything is racist, nothing is.

Roxxsmom said:

The cops didn't shoot them this time, but this is exactly the kind of thing that has ended in shootings in other cases. If one of those cops had decided the situation warranted lethal force, he could have pulled the trigger, and chances are he wouldn't even have been tried for murder. That this case didn't end in tragedy doesn't mean it's not a reflection of racism. The fact that other tragedies are happening around us also doesn't mean this isn't outrageous.

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Yes, and I don't disagree with a single word here. Minor situations have become major tragedies over extremely trivial and mundane reasons and fortunately it did not in this case.

Hooray for cool heads all around.

Roxxsmom said:

Discrimination and racism are different things. Discrimination is one thing that happens as a consequence of racism. Of course discrimination could occur for other reasons besides someone's race, but it seems like race was the factor in this case.

I thought racism is an institutional (or society level) bias against people of some races and not others. If personal biases based on race aren't a form of racism (though how can we call a person who discriminates against someone based on race a racist then), then maybe the restaurant manager's call wasn't an example of racism. But when the police showed up and arrested two men who had done nothing wrong, I'd argue it would indeed be racism in action, since that represents and institutional or societal bias. I doubt the cops would have arrested two white people in the same situation.

I'd argue that personal biases cross the line into racism (or any other kind of "ism") when they reinforce society-wide inequities.

I'm reluctant to mince words and avoid calling an act of racial discrimination racism just because it hurts some poor white folks' fee fees.

Note that NT knows far more about this than I ever can, and I probably should defer to his judgment on this, but it seems at odds with what I though (perhaps erroneously) he has said on the subject in the past.

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That's entirely possible. I am getting older.

I'm not reluctant to mince words and avoid calling an act of racial discrimination "racism" just because it hurts poor White folks or poor Black folks feelings and that gets me in trouble here, there and everywhere. A perfect example of this came after a 60 Minutes story about the opening of a new museum in Alabama exploring this country's bloody history of lynching.

For reasons unknown 60 Minutes producers found it necessary to provide a disclaimer explaining why they included graphic photographs of actual lynchings. Why? It's as much a part of American history as any other event. Lynching was not a rarity as much as it was a reality. Only a fool could argue otherwise.

To lynch a Black man is to be racist. To refuse to allow him to use the toilet can be regarded as racism, but when it comes to what it means, they don't exist in the same continuum.

nighttimer said:

To lynch a Black man is to be racist. To refuse to allow him to use the toilet can be regarded as racism, but when it comes to what it means, they don't exist in the same continuum.

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I'm certainly not going to argue with that, but we can make distinctions about the degree of harm done by institutional biases (or "isms") in a whole host of situations.

Someone who is beaten is better off than someone who is beaten and murdered too, but knowing that doesn't make a beating less traumatic than it is. It also doesn't (imo) make the murders less outrageous if they're considered to be the extreme end of a continuum.

Some people have referred to systemic, lower level "isms" as death by a thousand cuts. Individually, they may just be annoyances, but when they happen over and over and over, they're exhausting and constantly remind one of one's outsider status. I've been told I shouldn't worry about workplace sexual harassment, because in some places I wouldn't even allowed to have my own job or my own money (or might be beaten for walking down the street unescorted). Is that supposed to make me sanguine about the injustices that occur in my own life?

I may be commenting out of context, but the Starbucks example is textbook RACISM, full semantics and all because the oppressed people (Black men, those two in particular AND the ethnic group) were persecuted for the sake of those in power (white people, big business franchise, the manager in particular) ONLY for the reason of their skin color. It's the only difference between them and the other customers. The word is used lightly sometimes but this is a genuine use. Their case may not have fully been processed the the police aren't some security guards, their part of the government (aka the system).

To be blunt, the clarification of RACISM vs DISCRIMINATION usually only serves the purpose to tell white people why it isn't "racist" if a black person XYZ.

I only read the last two posts so I might be super out off topic though lol

S. Eli said:

To be blunt, the clarification of RACISM vs DISCRIMINATION usually only serves the purpose to tell white people why it isn't "racist" if a black person XYZ.

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Agree, fully. In practice, this bit of verbal hair-splitting is a distinction without a difference. It allows the famous "I'm not a racist, but . . ." excuse-making.

Nothing to do except to call it what it really is.

caw

With ref to S eli's comment in post #38: This is my understanding too, and this is where it gets hard--having to explain (until one feels like one is foaming at the mouth) why the same act performed by a black person against a white person isn't racism (in the institutional, and most harmful sense of the word, at least).

Someone can be prejudiced, biased, bigoted, and downright hateful to some one, but if their prejudice doesn't reinforce or maintain a status quo of historical oppression based on race, then it's not a manifestation of racism. Unfortunately, this is one of those issues that has driven a real wedge.

I remember how incredulous I felt the first time someone told me that Black people in American couldn't be racist, even if they harbored prejudice against white people. I was so indoctrinated in the concept of symmetry and sauce for the gander etc. that I didn't see it--at least not until I grasped the significance of racism at a society-wide level (and that involved setting aside hopefully naive ideas that institutional racism was over, so any lingering inequalities might just be because of differences in attitude or just because of poverty). Once I did see it, insisting that acts of bias against white people carried the same weight felt a bit like childishly whining that it's not fair we don't have "white history month."

Or to put it another way, if a white person in the US is treated unfairly by a black shopkeeper, it may be frustrating, annoying and inconvenient, but odds are the white person can find another place to shop where there are clerks who treat them fairly. When racism is still as pervasive as it still is, the reverse is less likely to be true for a black person who is treated unfairly by a white shopkeeper. The argument that black people's biases hurt white people as much as white peoples' biases hurt black people is prefaced on a false assumption of a level playing field. This is something libertarians--who sometimes propose that discrimination should be legal--miss. Allowing bias free legal rein will hurt minorities and traditionally marginalized groups far more than the reverse.

Unfortunately, this argument is something many white people are unable, or unwilling, to hear or understand, and it becomes one more item in their litany against "social justice."