Garner vs Hamilton: suing supporters into silence?

ebbrown · Apr 11, 2018

I have plenty of personal opinions about this case, but the legal implications are the questions I'm asking about as this case drags on.
A blog post HERE sums it up and contains lots of links to sources.
Short summary:

Dispute between Author(Plaintiff) and Promoter(Defendant) ends up in court in California
Author has public support for her case and financial support via a fund page
Promoter extends and delays case in multiple (sadly, legal) ways, and publicly makes a statement how easy it is to add anyone onto an existing lawsuit and sue them for speaking out, causing them "tens of thousands of dollars each". Promoter proceeds to file cross-complaints against other authors who publicly supported the Author and/or donated to the Author's fund page; these Authors live in various states and even countries. This forces all of those Authors to hire a lawyer in California at significant personal expense.
After three of the Authors win motions for dismissal, the Promoter drops the complaints against the other authors.
Supporters of the Author are essentially intimidated into silence

So essentially this is a case of who has the biggest pocket book? I'm beyond disgusted at the legal system right now, as the implications of this are chilling. Essentially we can all be sued and forced to shell out thousands of dollars by simply supporting someone on the internet or contributing to a go fund me? What recourse do any of really have when dealing with promoters like this? :rant:

cbenoi1 · Apr 11, 2018

ebbrown said:
Dispute between Author(Plaintiff) and Promoter(Defendant) ends up in court in California

Let me get this straight.

A Plaintiff brings a Defendent to justice, then complains there is not enough money to bring her case to its conclusion?

Dunno, but if I ever brought someone before a court, I'd make damned sure I had enough money. Plus some margin for delays and counter-suits...

-cb

ebbrown · Apr 11, 2018

cbenoi1 said:
Let me get this straight.

A Plaintiff brings a Defendent to justice, then complains there is not enough money to bring her case to its conclusion?

Dunno, but if I ever brought someone before a court, I'd make damned sure I had enough money. Plus some margin for delays and counter-suits...

-cb

I did not say the Plaintiff is complaining about anything. I was in no way speaking for the Plaintiff, my post is my own observation and thoughts. From what I understand, the Plaintiff took on a second job in order to keep up with the staggering legal fees.

I am more interested in the legal wrangling discussion and implications for other authors who have(or will in the future) find themselves in a similar situation. By the way this case has been going, is this going to set a precedent that online support of an author via social media, and/or contributing to a go fund me will end up targeted with legal action? Or that vendors with big pocket books can treat authors however they want, simply because most folks don't have the $$ to get justice? This all makes me feel hopeless that there is any recourse for someone who has been wronged, especially if you aren't some mega successful author with a endless supply of cash.

cbenoi1 · Apr 11, 2018

This is what you wrote:

A sues B.

B gets ballistic.

A runs out of money to pay the legal fees.

A asks for crowd funding.

Does that scenario make any sense?

Lesson: if you want to bring someone before a judge, make sure you have enough money.

-cb

ebbrown · Apr 11, 2018

cbenoi1 said:
Lesson: if you want to bring someone before a judge, make sure you have enough money.

-cb

Point taken. Of course, in a perfect world, we would all have unlimited resources when we need them. Most of us do not.

Discussion on the case or other talking points? Such as the implications that essentially we can all be sued and forced to shell out thousands of dollars by simply supporting someone on the internet or contributing to a go fund me?

cbenoi1 · Apr 11, 2018

ebbrown said:
Discussion on the case or other talking points?

The case you brought up: A sued B. A ran out of money, not B.

ebbrown said:
Such as the implications that essentially we can all be sued and forced to shell out thousands of dollars by simply supporting someone on the internet or contributing to a go fund me?

If B had ran out of money to defend herself, there would be some apparent injustice. Then again, what did B do to get sued? This part is not clear. Was there some arbitration going on? Was there some legal warning like a Cease & Desist letter sent? Was there a mediator called into the case?

It's hard to judge the merit of one side over another. Don't take A for granted. Nor B for that matter.

-cb

ebbrown · Apr 11, 2018

cbenoi1 said:
The case you brought up: A sued B. A ran out of money, not B.

If B had ran out of money to defend herself, there would be some apparent injustice. Then again, what did B do to get sued? This part is not clear. Was there some arbitration going on? Was there some legal warning like a Cease & Desist letter sent? Was there a mediator called into the case?

It's hard to judge the merit of one side over another. Don't take A for granted. Nor B for that matter.

-cb

Agree, it is a convoluted case for sure.

There is definitely a lot of legal wrangling going on. I believe there are links in the article about the history of the case, but the actual case is HERE (case #BC664530)

It was difficult as an onlooker to understand the delay tactics, which I now understand are pretty common legal maneuvers. The part that is most frustrating is that others can get sued for supporting the Plaintiff/or donating, and that they were targeted specifically by the Defendant for doing so (here). Is this something any of us should come to expect? Lots of us support each other via social media. Lots of us donate to causes.

Maggie Maxwell · Apr 11, 2018

cbenoi1 said:
Then again, what did B do to get sued? This part is not clear.

Some choice bits from the GoFundMe page:

In August 2016, a friend recommended a book promoter to help me sell my books. I did a little research and the reviews were glowing—people seemed to be thrilled with her services.

...

I dug into my savings and signed up for three multi-author box sets, one shared writing collective, private coaching, and several promotions geared at book promotion and newsletter building, all totaling upwards of $4,000.

...

The promoter had some of her box sets pulled from sale because they violated Amazon’s terms of service. Our contracts were changed dramatically without our consent. We were told “no refunds.”

If that wasn’t bad enough, the tactics used to keep authors quiet were unprofessional. Anyone who asked valid questions was shamed publicly and in the social media groups we were required to join for communications. People were told they would be removed from promotions they had already paid for if they disagreed, their prepaid services “donated” to other authors.

I wrote a private email to the promoter, politely explaining that the projects were no longer a good fit for me and requested refunds. Instead of keeping our business private, as I had done, she took to Facebook, publicly blasting me as unprofessional and going back on my word. She announced that I had let 70 authors down and dozens of others joined in to shame me back into line.

... now this promoter has falsely accused me of plagiarism twice—publicly.

Basically, Defendant is ripping people off, breaking contracts, and publicly dragging people who disagree with them through the mud. Plaintiff took them to court both to get money back and to try to stop Defendant from doing this to more people and was told she had an easy case by lawyers, now Defendant is dragging everything out, has countersued for half a million, and is dragging in people who donated to the Plaintiff in what the judge has indicated is "a good candidate for an anti-SLAPP filing"

AW Admin · Apr 11, 2018

The issue is first, that anyone can sue pretty much anyone for well, almost anything.

People are often reprehensible in such lawsuits; this isn't new. This has happened many, many times, just in terms of publishing.

cbenoi1 · Apr 11, 2018

ebbrown said:
{...} the actual case is HERE (case #BC664530).

I'm not a lawyer nor do I have the bandwidth to go through a bunch of legal documents.

ebbrown said:
It was difficult as an onlooker to understand the delay tactics, which I now understand are pretty common legal maneuvers.

If someone sues me and I feel it's not warranted, I will use every tool at my disposal. Guaranteed. It's a message: BUG OFF.

ebbrown said:
The part that is most frustrating is that others can get sued for supporting the Plaintiff/or donating, and that they were targeted specifically by the Defendant for doing so (here).

Why are 3rd parties joining in the case through crowd funding in the first place? A is not defending herself. A is on the attack here, remember? A can stop this process anytime she wishes, but she decided to continue.

Please, explain this logic to me.

At some point there should have been a calculation about risks and rewards. What is this process going to cost me? What are the rewards? If A goes into a legal battle and the rewards become less than the costs, why is she continuing this process? Sorry, this is just plain stupid to me.

-cb

cbenoi1 · Apr 11, 2018

Maggie Maxwell said:
Plaintiff took them to court both to get money back {...}

Sounds legit to me.

Maggie Maxwell said:
{...} and to try to stop Defendant from doing this to more people {...}

Her lawyers allowed this? This is the problem with this case right there.

Maggie Maxwell said:
{...} and was told she had an easy case by lawyers {...}

When lawyers say they have an "ease peasy case", run away.

-cb

ebbrown · Apr 11, 2018

cbenoi1 said:
Sounds legit to me.

Her lawyers allowed this? This is the problem with this case right there.

When lawyers say they have an "ease peasy case", run away.

-cb

lol, agree. No case like this could be ease peasy. This case actually inspired me to start studying law in my spare time. (Well, that and that time I had to defend myself in family court because I couldn't afford a lawyer.) Civil law is mind-boggling.

cbenoi1 · Apr 11, 2018

ebbrown said:
Civil law is mind-boggling.

A great mind once told me Law is a business like any other. He asked me how the word "business" translates to Spanish. I didn't know.

Negocio.

How does that sounds like in plain English?

-cb

Lauram6123 · Apr 11, 2018

cbenoi1 said:
Why are 3rd parties joining in the case through crowd funding in the first place? A is not defending herself. A is on the attack here, remember?

-cb

Originally, yes, but B has countersued A for 5 hundred grand. For defending that, she is seeking crowd-funding.

cbenoi1 · Apr 11, 2018

Lauram6123 said:
Originally, yes, but B has countersued A for 500 hundred grand.

Did A put an end to the first case? If not ... negocio.

Lauram6123 said:
For defending that, she is seeking crowd-funding.

Either she has bad lawyers or there is some misguided stubbornness at play. This is asking to throw good money after bad.

-cb

Lauram6123 · Apr 11, 2018

cbenoi1 said:
Did A put an end to the first case? If not ... negocio.

From what it says on her GoFundMe page, A's original case remains ongoing.

Either she has bad lawyers or there is some misguided stubbornness at play. This is asking to throw good money after bad.

According to A, this is not about the money. It's about wanting to stop B from victimizing other writers.

-cb

Again, I'm getting all this from A's GoFundMe page, but it appears the countersuit is simply a tactic of B to intimidate and silence A. And A isn't having it.

cbenoi1 · Apr 11, 2018

Lauram6123 said:
{...} it appears the countersuit is simply a tactic of B to intimidate and silence A. And A isn't having it.

Is it? There is a level of drama and moronic logic in this case I just cannot fathom ...

Just play the sequence of tit-for-tat events with me.

A sues B over a US$4K deed - going before a judge with a lawyer for US$4K blows me away. Lawyers are paid $$$ / billable hour. Fees go up rapidly in court. You have to know how much this will cost, have a ceiling or something. Unless you go to the lower court and defend yourself. Like Judge Judy.
B countersues for US$500K - no biggie. Most courts would take a 10% off that amount when the case to goes forward. There is still time to pull the plug before that happens.
A wants a revenge and sticks on - this is where this case starts to go psychotic
A goes to crowd funding. Twitter, Facebook, social media ahoy.
A garners a wide support with the help of other authors - what amount of US$ are we talking here? A couple thousands? Tens of thoushands? Hundreds of thousands? Millions? Maybe. Maybe not. But it could be farly high depending on how good the crowd funding campaign goes. Heck, the Broncos ( link ) garnered C$8 plus millions.

Then what?

A counter-counter sues B - this is what everybody who chipped in expect would happen.

How about:

A and B split the money and move to Belize

Doh.

-cb

BenPanced · Apr 11, 2018

There's some discussion about this over on the thread on Immortal Ink.

ebbrown · Apr 12, 2018

cbenoi1 said:
Is it? There is a level of drama and moronic logic in this case I just cannot fathom ...

Just play the sequence of tit-for-tat events with me.

A sues B over a US$4K deed - going before a judge with a lawyer for US$4K blows me away. Lawyers are paid $$$ / billable hour. Fees go up rapidly in court. You have to know how much this will cost, have a ceiling or something. Unless you go to the lower court and defend yourself. Like Judge Judy.

B countersues for US$500K - no biggie. Most courts would take a 10% off that amount when the case to goes forward. There is still time to pull the plug before that happens.

A wants a revenge and sticks on - this is where this case starts to go psychotic

A goes to crowd funding. Twitter, Facebook, social media ahoy.

A garners a wide support with the help of other authors - what amount of US$ are we talking here? A couple thousands? Tens of thoushands? Hundreds of thousands? Millions? Maybe. Maybe not. But it could be farly high depending on how good the crowd funding campaign goes. Heck, the Broncos ( link ) garnered C$8 plus millions.

Then what?

A counter-counter sues B - this is what everybody who chipped in expect would happen.

How about:

A and B split the money and move to Belize

Doh.

-cb

Lol, I'm all in moving to Belize.

I think the crux of it was A having her reputation attacked by B after the fallout of the business transaction. A was accused of being a plagiarist and a racist by B. I can understand the desire to seek justice and clear A's name. It really sucks that there is no other legal recourse besides spending thousands on lawyer fees.

Does anyone know if a person can represent himself in civil litigation? I wondering if it varies according to venue or state...

cbenoi1 · Apr 12, 2018

ebbrown said:
I can understand the desire to seek justice and clear A's name.

Damages must be substantiated. What is the value of A's name? What were the actual damages? There should have been a fair discussion between A and her lawyer about the pros and cons of this process. Especially the cons.

ebbrown said:
It really sucks that there is no other legal recourse besides spending thousands on lawyer fees.

If there was even a hint of a crime involved, then A can file a complaint with the police and let them handle it through the criminal law.

-cb

Filigree · Apr 13, 2018

Sorry, I had to delete my first post. This case infuriates me, but for personal and career reasons I can't elaborate.

Garner vs Hamilton: suing supporters into silence?

ebbrown

Easily Amused

cbenoi1

ebbrown

Easily Amused

cbenoi1

ebbrown

Easily Amused

cbenoi1

ebbrown

Easily Amused

Maggie Maxwell

Making Einstein cry since 1994

AW Admin

cbenoi1

cbenoi1

ebbrown

Easily Amused

cbenoi1

Lauram6123

cbenoi1

Lauram6123

cbenoi1

BenPanced

THE BLUEBERRY QUEEN OF HADES (he/him)

ebbrown

Easily Amused

cbenoi1

Filigree

Mildly Disturbing