Empathic characterization... why do I struggle with this?

gtanders · Apr 10, 2018

I remember the very first crit I got. I was 15 and I emailed my 200k-word SF doorstop to a friend. She said it was exciting, but the characters didn't seem real.

I've queried 3 times now since 2014. I've gotten a lot of responses like, "good concept, well-executed, didn't connect with the characters."

I've put up flash fiction in the SF Share Your Work section here, and I get responses like, "beautifully written, exciting, didn't connect with the characters."

I've read Orson Scott Card's book Characters and Viewpoint. I've read The Emotional Craft of Fiction by Donald Maass.

I've had one "real" short story published. One time when I didn't hear, "didn't connect with the characters." Maybe I created a connectable character here? What do you think? What am I doing "right" in this story? https://pankmagazine.com/piece/the-kaleidoscope-kid/

I feel *a lot* for my characters. Their stories are super emotional to me. I don't understand how no one feels that way except me. I thought I knew how to place the reader in someone's shoes, but all the evidence (except that story above) points to the contrary.

I hope I'm not a cold person. I don't understand what I'm doing wrong.

1) Can anyone point me toward resources in this area?

2) And/or, what techniques do you use to create empathic characters?

C.Harmon · Apr 10, 2018

You should check out Story Genius by Lisa Crohn. That book's become my ace in the hole with this new MS of mine, and it's revolutionized the way I develop my characters. With a lot of craft books, I struggled with translating their advice into my stories, but with Story Genius, she basically spells it out for you.

gtanders · Apr 10, 2018

C.Harmon said:
You should check out Story Genius by Lisa Crohn. That book's become my ace in the hole with this new MS of mine, and it's revolutionized the way I develop my characters. With a lot of craft books, I struggled with translating their advice into my stories, but with Story Genius, she basically spells it out for you.

That sounds awesome--and I totally agree, I can't interface with the dry craft advice. It's too divorced from story reality.

I've tried to let myself imitate my favorite authors intuitively. I can definitely point to books in which I felt deeply for the characters (as opposed to books in which I didn't), so I know I'm not some cold psycopath as a reader. But every time I think I'm making advances in translating that sensitivity as a reader into warmth and empathy as a writer, I get "eh..." from the industry and my beta readers.

I'll check out the book. Thank you!

cornflake · Apr 10, 2018

gtanders said:
I remember the very first crit I got. I was 15 and I emailed my 200k-word SF doorstop to a friend. She said it was exciting, but the characters didn't seem real.

I've queried 3 times now since 2014. I've gotten a lot of responses like, "good concept, well-executed, didn't connect with the characters."

I've put up flash fiction in the SF Share Your Work section here, and I get responses like, "beautifully written, exciting, didn't connect with the characters."

I've read Orson Scott Card's book Characters and Viewpoint. I've read The Emotional Craft of Fiction by Donald Maass.

I've had one "real" short story published. One time when I didn't hear, "didn't connect with the characters." Maybe I created a connectable character here? What do you think? What am I doing "right" in this story? https://pankmagazine.com/piece/the-kaleidoscope-kid/

I feel *a lot* for my characters. Their stories are super emotional to me. I don't understand how no one feels that way except me. I thought I knew how to place the reader in someone's shoes, but all the evidence (except that story above) points to the contrary.

I hope I'm not a cold person. I don't understand what I'm doing wrong.

1) Can anyone point me toward resources in this area?

2) And/or, what techniques do you use to create empathic characters?

So I read over the ff thing and most of the linked story and I can tell you what I think you're doing, but you know, someone else, like you, might like your style so...

In both, the characters seem incredibly secondary to everything else. First, you seem so deeply reluctant to name people until it's too late, for reasons I don't know, but it surely doesn't help the feeling that the characters are supposed to be background noise, just 2D cutouts moving about a paper world. You're into describing the scene, going on about their actions (He got to know;... He got a job... He moved spreadsheets...), but it's all distant, like you're an alien researcher describing what you observed. It's not immersive; it's scientific.

What do you read?

Carrie in PA · Apr 10, 2018

It's easier for you to feel deeply for your characters - you KNOW them inside and out. The problem may well be that you're just not letting your readers have enough information for them to get to know your characters.

Let's say you have a BFF, you'd dive in front of a bullet for this guy. You've been through thick and thin. He was beaten as a child and spent as much time with your family as he could. You spent nights listening to him weep into his pillow. In spite of his tragic background, he's been your rock, through a messy divorce, a parent's death, he's picked you up at 3 am when your car broke down. YOU know all this, and you love this guy immensely.

But we're chatting and you tell me: He's a great guy, we go way back.

I don't care.

Obviously I have no idea if this is your issue or not, but it's the first possibility that came to mind.

Maybe you're *too* close to your characters and you try to protect them by keeping their secrets from the readers.

But the best news is that you know what the issue IS, so you'll be able to fix it!

C.Harmon · Apr 10, 2018

Lately I've noticed that my problem with characters stemmed from not diving deep enough in their heads. I'll establish what's important to them, but what I used to always gloss over was why it was important to them. Before, I would just assume that the 'why' was implied, but I was so wrong. In Story Genius, for example, Lisa Crohn has you write 3 scenes as an exercise set in your protagonist's childhood that end up permanently altering your protag's view of the world, for the worse. For example, maybe something happened that caused them to believe that girlfriends/boyfriends will always take advantage of them. Then you work those misbeliefs into your story, and set about having the protagonist learn that those misbeliefs, and grow from them. Creating a backstory like that gives your character's values context, to show why they hold those values. It's not enough for them to just have the values.

Lakey · Apr 10, 2018

cornflake said:
So I read over the ff thing and most of the linked story and I can tell you what I think you're doing, but you know, someone else, like you, might like your style so...

In both, the characters seem incredibly secondary to everything else. First, you seem so deeply reluctant to name people until it's too late, for reasons I don't know, but it surely doesn't help the feeling that the characters are supposed to be background noise, just 2D cutouts moving about a paper world. You're into describing the scene, going on about their actions (He got to know;... He got a job... He moved spreadsheets...), but it's all distant, like you're an alien researcher describing what you observed. It's not immersive; it's scientific.

Based on a very small sample of your work, I am inclined to agree with cornflake. I read your recent Share Your Work post - the one about the woman tasked to play the cosmic chord - and I found very little in there about how this enormous responsibility was affecting her. In response to comments about the disembodied voices, you said they need to be disembodied for the purpose of the story. That's fine, perhaps, but it doesn't mean your main character, in whose point of view the story rests, has listen to them tell her terrible, frightening things without any reaction. Eventually, you show her hands shaking as she holds them over the keys, which suggests she does have some emotions going on - but apart from that you give no window into her interior life at all. What's she thinking? What's she feeling? If she already knew the terrible consequences of messing up this job, why did she take the job at all? If you know the answers to these questions - if you really know your characters and empathize with them - you can bring more of that to the page.

Lissibith · Apr 10, 2018

I think Cornflake gave you some really solid thoughts on the piece you shared. As for the how to address it, I also think you got a lot of solid advice -- making sure you not only know the background and personalities of these characters, but also make sure we know. I get that subtlety is an art, but sometimes it gets too subtle and if you get an oblivious reader like me, that subtlety can just blow right over my head.

As an example, in the piece you shared, I'm struggling to really pin down who your main character is. I feel certain that you have a solid handle on his personality, his desires, his reactions to the world around him. But in what I read, all I got was the split that's the main premise, and then that he seems to have a hefty apathy toward the world of capitalism, that he seems kind of self absorbed, that he would very much like to meet someone else like him and that he seems to have a varyingly positive relationship with his parents. I'm sure there's more there, it just didn't come through to me as a reader -- it was definitely the setup itself that was the main points of interest.

Maybe it would help to find a beta who could specifically look at the character development of a few of your longer pieces, when there's more room to breathe and explore? Sometimes only a fresh set of eyes can help you see.

gtanders · Apr 10, 2018

cornflake said:
In both, the characters seem incredibly secondary to everything else. First, you seem so deeply reluctant to name people until it's too late, for reasons I don't know, but it surely doesn't help the feeling that the characters are supposed to be background noise, just 2D cutouts moving about a paper world. You're into describing the scene, going on about their actions (He got to know;... He got a job... He moved spreadsheets...), but it's all distant, like you're an alien researcher describing what you observed. It's not immersive; it's scientific.

I get that "The Kaleidoscope Kid" may not work for you, but I've had tons of feedback from strangers thanking me for that story, mostly on Twitter, all of it unsolicited. It also led to an author interview (unsolicited) that's coming out soon. So I'm not adding it to the "didn't succeed in characterization" pile.

What do you read?

SF (contemporary and classic), literary (contemporary and classic), The New Yorker, some philosophy. Trying to read more SF magazines.

Favorite SF authors include Philip K Dick and William Gibson. I find Idoru totally unrelatable from a character perspective, but Pattern Recognition, to me, is a character gem.

If this helps--I usually score INTP, INFJ, or INTJ on Myers-Briggs. (Yeah, it varies.

)

gtanders · Apr 10, 2018

Lakey said:
Based on a very small sample of your work, I am inclined to agree with cornflake. I read your recent Share Your Work post - the one about the woman tasked to play the cosmic chord - and I found very little in there about how this enormous responsibility was affecting her. In response to comments about the disembodied voices, you said they need to be disembodied for the purpose of the story. That's fine, perhaps, but it doesn't mean your main character, in whose point of view the story rests, has listen to them tell her terrible, frightening things without any reaction. Eventually, you show her hands shaking as she holds them over the keys, which suggests she does have some emotions going on - but apart from that you give no window into her interior life at all. What's she thinking? What's she feeling? If she already knew the terrible consequences of messing up this job, why did she take the job at all? If you know the answers to these questions - if you really know your characters and empathize with them - you can bring more of that to the page.

I appreciate that. The SYW piece was literally a first draft, pure inspiration. I wanted to see what the crowd thought of my unedited muse (if I may be so pretentious.

)

gtanders · Apr 10, 2018

Lissibith said:
As an example, in the piece you shared, I'm struggling to really pin down who your main character is. I feel certain that you have a solid handle on his personality, his desires, his reactions to the world around him. But in what I read, all I got was the split that's the main premise, and then that he seems to have a hefty apathy toward the world of capitalism, that he seems kind of self absorbed, that he would very much like to meet someone else like him and that he seems to have a varyingly positive relationship with his parents. I'm sure there's more there, it just didn't come through to me as a reader -- it was definitely the setup itself that was the main points of interest.

That piece is probably a bad example haha... yeah, he can't pin down who he is. The split *is* part of the premise, and it's also why he's a mystery to himself. That story is also literary, not genre, so maybe it's not a good parallel (I'm trying to write genre now).

MaeZe · Apr 10, 2018

C.Harmon said:
You should check out Story Genius by Lisa Crohn. That book's become my ace in the hole with this new MS of mine, and it's revolutionized the way I develop my characters. With a lot of craft books, I struggled with translating their advice into my stories, but with Story Genius, she basically spells it out for you.

It's Cron and Wired for Story has been a great help to me.

Lisa Cron: Wired for Story

Lissibith · Apr 10, 2018

gtanders said:
That piece is probably a bad example haha... yeah, he can't pin down who he is. The split *is* part of the premise, and it's also why he's a mystery to himself. That story is also literary, not genre, so maybe it's not a good parallel (I'm trying to write genre now).

Ah, yeah, that might make a difference

I still think finding a good beta who has a good eye for characters would probably be a great aid. Or if you're feeling masochistic, maybe try going through a story that got the "can't connect" feedback and highlighting everything that's concretely set down in writing about a character -- not what's obliquely inferred, but what's obvious within the writing. Then see how well that stacks up to the picture you want to build of that character? I'm not sure it would help, it's a system I mostly use for place descriptions, but...

cornflake · Apr 10, 2018

gtanders said:
I get that "The Kaleidoscope Kid" may not work for you, but I've had tons of feedback from strangers thanking me for that story, mostly on Twitter, all of it unsolicited. It also led to an author interview (unsolicited) that's coming out soon. So I'm not adding it to the "didn't succeed in characterization" pile.

SF (contemporary and classic), literary (contemporary and classic), The New Yorker, some philosophy. Trying to read more SF magazines.

Favorite SF authors include Philip K Dick and William Gibson. I find Idoru totally unrelatable from a character perspective, but Pattern Recognition, to me, is a character gem.

If this helps--I usually score INTP, INFJ, or INTJ on Myers-Briggs. (Yeah, it varies. )

Uhm, ok -- if you're happy with what you're doing, I'm not sure what the question is.

The pieces read basically exactly the same to me. People sometimes perceive published work differently based on the fact of publication. Also, as I noted, different strokes. What I said applies to both, as the issues are repetitive and interchangeable as far as I can tell.

As to the latter, Buzzfeed says I'm a lemon meringue pie.

Sorry, I cannot stand Meyers and Briggs and the unscientific nonsense they tried to pass off as psychometrics.

gtanders · Apr 10, 2018

cornflake said:
Uhm, ok -- if you're happy with what you're doing, I'm not sure what the question is.

The question was, what's working in the published story? You decided to answer a different question which I didn't ask.

gtanders · Apr 10, 2018

Lissibith said:
Ah, yeah, that might make a difference I still think finding a good beta who has a good eye for characters would probably be a great aid.

Do you know a beta with a good eye for characters?

Or if you're feeling masochistic, maybe try going through a story that got the "can't connect" feedback and highlighting everything that's concretely set down in writing about a character -- not what's obliquely inferred, but what's obvious within the writing. Then see how well that stacks up to the picture you want to build of that character? I'm not sure it would help, it's a system I mostly use for place descriptions, but...

That's a great idea. I think I've been afraid to go there because I got feedback (on something, at some point, I can't even remember what) that something was "moving too slowly." So I'm always afraid I'm about to lose the reader if I don't have action, since this isn't the 1800s.

Like just last week--an agent read 25 pages and asked me to do an R&R in which I slow down and look inside the POV's head a little more. And here I am, trying to move fast because it's an SF thriller.

Balance...

Anyway, this is super helpful, thank you!

cornflake · Apr 10, 2018

gtanders said:
The question was, what's working in the published story? You decided to answer a different question which I didn't ask.

...

It's a nice font.

Welcome to the Internet, where people sometimes take discussions where you don't expect.

gtanders · Apr 10, 2018

Lakey said:
I found very little in there about how this enormous responsibility was affecting her. In response to comments about the disembodied voices, you said they need to be disembodied for the purpose of the story. That's fine, perhaps, but it doesn't mean your main character, in whose point of view the story rests, has listen to them tell her terrible, frightening things without any reaction. Eventually, you show her hands shaking as she holds them over the keys, which suggests she does have some emotions going on - but apart from that you give no window into her interior life at all. What's she thinking? What's she feeling? If she already knew the terrible consequences of messing up this job, why did she take the job at all? If you know the answers to these questions - if you really know your characters and empathize with them - you can bring more of that to the page.

Dang! You've given me so much to work with. Thank you!

My thing is rushing. Always rushing. I'm realizing that's my life, too. Always rushing.

I'll go super meta. Maybe I need to slow down and get in my *own* head.

Thank you for the thoughtful reply!

JJ Crafts · Apr 10, 2018

Everything everyone has said is good advice but I'd also add that you say you read a lot of classics and this might be something that is affecting your writing. I don't know how heavily your writing is inspired by them but classics tend to be written in quite a distant voice. I've never gotten on well with classics because I don't end up caring much for the characters because of the writing style. It isn't as commonly used nowadays which might be why your audience is picking up on it. So maybe analyse if your copying the writing style your picking up in classics instead of the more modern genre fiction you're reading.

Also physical reactions to things can help ground your reader if showing us his thoughts or him being confused makes it difficult. Someone else mentioned you used shaking fingers at one point but other things like racing heart, sweating, hot flushes, throat closing up, stomach swooping, fidgeting, skin prickling..... These are all things that will make us feel how the character feels.

Harlequin · Apr 10, 2018

A short story can get away with far less characterisation than a novel. A novel is a huge time investment for a reader and I'm only going to finish it because I care about the character's journey.

In contrast, I've read short stories entirely for their unique idea rather than their character journey, although increasingly you'll find in pro mags the emphasis is moving towards character (it wasn't always so).

I've only read one of your stories in SYW, and I did find it difficult to connect to the MC (I think you decided to scrap it in the end, though I think it was perfectly salvageable.) In the case of that story, the reactions felt rote--as in, the characters were behaving in ways designed to move the plot. I wasn't getting a sense that they were individual people with a consistent set of behaviours and unique reactions.

To put it another way, it felt like the characters were being bent to the story, and not the other way around. Which in turn made them feel like set pieces, cogs in the story wheel, and not people reacting to situations in an organic way.

Edit to add, I like classical literature too. And classical SF. But it depends which specific novels you mean because they're not always going for the same thing. And sometimes those writers are classic for a reason (ie they're subtly pulling off something really difficult, while making it look easy.)

AW Admin · Apr 10, 2018

This really isn't a BWQ. I'll see if another mod is willing to host.

Empathic characterization... why do I struggle with this?

gtanders

C.Harmon

gtanders

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

Carrie in PA

Write All The Words!

C.Harmon

Lakey

professional dilettante

Lissibith

On target

gtanders

gtanders

gtanders

MaeZe

Lissibith

On target

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

gtanders

gtanders

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

gtanders

JJ Crafts

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!

AW Admin