Hyphenate? My numbered compound word is not an adjective

KendallDavis

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This one has stumped me. Here is my sentence in question:

A forty-second walk on the beach, a few steps up a very small hill, fifteen feet down a trail, and we would be there; piece of cake.

Forty-second is an adjective that modifies walk, so I hyphenate it.

I cannot figure out whether or not to hyphenate fifteen feet. Fifteen feet is not an adjective, but what is its part of speech in my sentence?

I would say, “Do not use that fifteen-foot board there.” Or, “That board is fifteen feet long.” But, I do not know what to do with this sentence.

Do I only hyphenate in this instance when a compound word using numbers is an adjective?
 

Helix

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The problem I see with forty-second is that it's confusing. It could read as though there have been 41 walks before, especially as the sentence changes from time to distance in the second part. I'd clarify this by writing 40 second (not hyphenated) or substitute something else.

Fifteen feet does not need to be hyphenated.
 

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Feet is a noun that fifteen is modifying.

I would hyphenate "40-second," but I agree that it happens to be confusing that "forty-second" could mean 42nd or 40-second
 

be frank

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It's in situations like these that as a writer I'd ask myself whether it's absolutely necessary for the walk to be exactly forty seconds long, or whether confusion could be avoided simply by making it a "minute's walk" or a "short walk" some such. :)
 
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Night_Writer

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"A forty-second walk on the beach" seems all right to me. But "piece of cake" doesn't. "Piece of cake" is a sentence fragment, so it doesn't work after a semicolon.
 

ironmikezero

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Beyond the hyphenation issue . . .

The inherent ambiguity would pull me out of the scene. Were there 41 prior walks; or, is this simply the time duration? The context of the following lines would help to draw me back in; but, I've already hit the speed bump, my attention jostled.

"A walk of a mere forty seconds . . ." would clear it up for me.
 

KendallDavis

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"A forty-second walk on the beach" seems all right to me. But "piece of cake" doesn't. "Piece of cake" is a sentence fragment, so it doesn't work after a semicolon.

Oh, fudge! As much experience as I have, you are telling me that I'm using semicolons all wrong? Can you please explain more? In the meantime, I will go and study my semicolon usage. I use semicolons for sentence fragments all the time. And,

I did not mention that this is internal dialogue because that was not the crux of my problem with this sentence. And this leads to a new discussion of course. So, I will search through the thread on semicolons before I make a new post.

Thank you very much, Night Writer.
 
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KendallDavis

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Feet is a noun that fifteen is modifying.

I would hyphenate "40-second," but I agree that it happens to be confusing that "forty-second" could mean 42nd or 40-second

Fifteen feet does not need to be hyphenated.[/QUOTE]

Thank you so much, Sage! I agree, but did not see that in my efforts to be punctuationally correct.
 

KendallDavis

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It's in situations like these that as a writer I'd ask myself whether it's absolutely necessary for the walk to be exactly forty seconds long, or whether confusion could be avoided simply by making it a "minute's walk" or a "short walk" some such. :)

Totally true. I can always count on Abslolute Writers to give me the obvious point of views that I cannot see when I'm working because I have tunnel vision. Thank you, Be Frank!
 

KendallDavis

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Beyond the hyphenation issue . . .

The inherent ambiguity would pull me out of the scene. Were there 41 prior walks; or, is this simply the time duration? The context of the following lines would help to draw me back in; but, I've already hit the speed bump, my attention jostled.1

"A walk of a mere forty seconds . . ." would clear it up for me.

I knew there was much more to this problem than I wanted to admit. It took me out of the scene too, and also made the rest of the paragraph confusing. Thank you, Ironmikezero!
 

KendallDavis

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The problem I see with forty-second is that it's confusing. It could read as though there have been 41 walks before, especially as the sentence changes from time to distance in the second part. I'd clarify this by writing 40 second (not hyphenated) or substitute something else.

Fifteen feet does not need to be hyphenated.

I think that the flow from time and distance is what confused me the most, after I could not solve the hypenation problem. Thank you, Helix!
 

Night_Writer

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Oh, fudge! As much experience as I have, you are telling me that I'm using semicolon's all wrong? Can you please explain more? In the meantime, I will go and study my semicolon usage. I use semicolons for sentence fragments all the time. And,

I did not mention that this is internal dialogue because that was not the crux of my problem with this sentence. And this leads to a new discussion of course. So, I will search through the thread on semicolons before I make a new post.

Thank you very much, Night Writer.

You're welcome.

Semicolons are used specifically to connect two complete sentences. Sentence fragments are all right to use in fiction, because you have creative license. You just can't use semicolons to connect them.

You could say............

A forty-second walk on the beach, a few steps up a very small hill, fifteen feet down a trail, and we would be there; it would be a piece of cake.

Or.............

A forty-second walk on the beach, a few steps up a very small hill, fifteen feet down a trail, and we would be there. Piece of cake.
 
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KendallDavis

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You're welcome.

Semicolons are used specifically to connect two complete sentences. Sentence fragments are all right to use in fiction, because you have creative license. You just can't use semicolons to connect them.

You could say............

A forty-second walk on the beach, a few steps up a very small hill, fifteen feet down a trail, and we would be there; it would be a piece of cake.

Or.............

A forty-second walk on the beach, a few steps up a very small hill, fifteen feet down a trail, and we would be there. Piece of cake.

Thank you, Night Writer, for absolving me from searching for queries about sentence fragments. I hope we can discuss it here. Please let me know if we cannot. This is an important issue for me in editing my own work and a friend's work. I use em dashes for these fragment dilemas, but I also use semicolons.

I use the semicolons for this type of structure in my own articles. I receive nasty critiques from a well-intentioned, select group of my readers if I commit the most minute grammar faux pas. I always say, "Thank you so much for pointing out my grammatical errors. I welcome your critiques." I have never, in two years, received a remark in reference to my semicolon usage nor from my publisher/editor. Although, he could be excusing that error of mine.

Also, I work with an author who regularly uses sentence fragments at the end of her sentences. It completely "WORKS" for her style. At this time, I think that using an em dash would totally disrupt the flow of her work in most of the cases where she uses a sentence fragment as an after thought. I have not had time to study the basics of semicolon usage since I posted this, but I will do so as soon as I can.

Any suggestions on how I should use this type of structure in a grammatically correct form are welcome.
 
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Chase

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Semicolons are used specifically to connect two complete sentences. Sentence fragments are all right to use in fiction, because you have creative license. You just can't use semicolons to connect them.

It's true semicolons may only join independent clauses. A reason writers may not have been faulted for misuse of a semicolon is its erroneous use is rampant.

Night_Writer's alternatives are best. Looking for a grammatical way to join fragments with semicolons is doomed to waste time and fail. :Shrug:
 

Night_Writer

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Thank you, Chase.

Thank you, Night Writer, for absolving me from searching for queries about sentence fragments. I hope we can discuss it here. Please let me know if we cannot.

Since this is the grammar section, it seems all right to talk here.

I have never, in two years, received a remark in reference to my semicolon usage nor from my publisher/editor. Although, he could be excusing that error of mine.

Maybe they are. Maybe they thought you were doing it on purpose, for effect.

Technically, it should be possible to replace the semicolon with a period. If it can't be replaced by a period, then you can't use the semi.

Any suggestions on how I should use this type of structure in a grammatically correct form are welcome.

It's very easy to Google, Bing, and Yahoo your way across the web and find tons of stuff on the semi. But I found this site amusing.

http://www.chompchomp.com/terms/semicolon.htm

It's a simple page; but sometimes it's the simple things that help the most.

:)
 
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KendallDavis

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Thank you, Chase.



Since this is the grammar section, it seems all right to talk here.



Maybe they are. Maybe they thought you were doing it on purpose, for effect.

Technically, it should be possible to replace the semicolon with a period. If it can't be replaced by a period, then you can't use the semi.



It's very easy to Google, Bing, and Yahoo your way across the web and find tons of stuff on the semi. But I found this site amusing.

http://www.chompchomp.com/terms/semicolon.htm

It's a simple page; but sometimes it's the simple things that help the most.

:)

That was a short but intelligent study on semicolons; I loved it! I can google my way around to discover the solution to any grammatical problem, but, as you pointed out, my issue is one of effect, and I feel that my effect is essential.

I also feel that I receive a much richer evaluation of what I may or may not be doing correctly when I ask Absolute Writer members for their opinions.

I am using the semicolon for effect and obviously taking literary license. So, where does literary license fall into this issue of using semicolons for sentence fragments which are an afterthought?

Because my erroneous usage of semicolons works for me, and I don't like to use em dashes unless they are profitable to the outcome of the sentence which is rare:

How do I punctuate fragments which are an afterthought but definitely need to be represented as an afterthought after a sentence?
 
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KendallDavis

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It's true semicolons may only join independent clauses. A reason writers may not have been faulted for misuse of a semicolon is its erroneous use is rampant.

Night_Writer's alternatives are best. Looking for a grammatical way to join fragments with semicolons is doomed to waste time and fail. :Shrug:

Chase, that realization has recently become quite clear to me...:)
 

Night_Writer

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How do I punctuate fragments which are an afterthought but definitely need to be represented as an afterthought after a sentence?

It's understood to be an afterthought by the way it's written. Just present it as its own sentence. Or sentence fragment. Just like I did there.

Ultimately, a semicolon is a fussy-ass piece of punctuation. And it just doesn't fit right with a sentence fragment. Fussy-ass punctuation does not go well with what amounts to an intentional error. Semicolons are for being proper; sentence fragments are for breaking the rules.

So if you want a sentence fragment, you just leave it as a fragment, on its own, with simple punctuation. For example......

The picnic was fun but it got ruined at the end. Pesky ants.

It will take you a week to get there. At least.

You look good with your hair like that. In a ponytail.

I want something to eat. Something really fattening.

I think that's a really great idea. Not.

A semicolon wouldn't work with any of those examples. Whether it's narrative, dialogue, internal dialogue, whatever. It's not necessary to physically connect the afterthought to the previous thought with
punctuation, because the flow of ideas is obvious.
 

KendallDavis

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Great, Night Writer! Thanks so very much! That works. Really appreciate your help.