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Understanding Rules of Scene Structure

Garmr

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From what I've read about scene structure, it states all proactive scenes include a goal, conflict and a setback. Does this mean (not counting reactive scenes) an entire story is nothing but difficulties for the main character? What if they have multiple goals, does that mean every time they achieve a goal they must be met by a setback? Would this make the story a continuous parade of difficulties until the end?
 

Maggie Maxwell

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From what I've read about scene structure, it states all proactive scenes include a goal, conflict and a setback. Does this mean (not counting reactive scenes) an entire story is nothing but difficulties for the main character? What if they have multiple goals, does that mean every time they achieve a goal they must be met by a setback? Would this make the story a continuous parade of difficulties until the end?

Pretty much. Once there are no more difficulties or conflicts waiting in the wings, there's no more story to tell. They can resolve some of them, but there must be at least one at any time to drive the story onward.

Ex: Conflicts - X loses their dog and X wants a girlfriend. Pretty Girl finds dog and brings it to X. If Pretty Girl becomes girlfriend and there's no more conflict waiting, then the story is over. If PG uses her new knowledge of X's house to rob X and steal the dog, then the story continues.
 

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From what I've read about scene structure, it states all proactive scenes include a goal, conflict and a setback.

No. Most scenes are parts of a "sequence" such as a chase or an escape or a bank heist or a weaseling out of a date that one mistakenly agreed to. Some scenes are very short. The SEQUENCE as a whole typically has a structure, not the scenes which make it up.

One or more struggles against obstacles are necessary. However, setbacks though frequent are optional.
 
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Garmr

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So what about a story where the protagonist is tracking down and killing villains that murdered his family? If he is killing them one at a time, should each confrontation scene end with him having some sort of set back?
 

Maggie Maxwell

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It needs a setback if there's no conflict left to drive it forward. Not every goal needs a setback, but there does need to be a goal/conflict for the end. Consider pretty much every movie or story with a McGuffin the MCs are after. If they get the McGuffin and it stays theirs forevermore, there's nothing else to happen. End of story. Pretty much every time, the bad guy either gets it first or steals it from them, and the bad guy ALMOST WINS with it even though it was supposed to make them undefeatable. With "Hunt the Bad Guys", the Big Bad always slips away as long as there are underlings to take the hits. Or an underling rises to fill Big Bad's shoes and he's worse than the original Big Bad. There's always at least one conflict that drive the story to the finish line, and until you're ready to write The End, there needs to be a conflict. If you finish the conflict before you're ready, then there needs to be a setback. If things are going too easy for your hero, there needs to be a setback because readers don't like things going too easily.

It's easy enough to study. There are plenty of movies that follow the Family Vengeance storyline. Watch one, and make note of when things go right for the hero and when they go wrong. Not every event in, for example, Die Hard had things go badly for McClane. Sometime he killed the underlings without issue. But there was also a lot that went wrong and made it more difficult as the movie progressed. Raising stakes and conflict, those are the reasons to put in setbacks. They're not needed every time, but you can't get away without them forever.
 

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So what about a story where the protagonist is tracking down and killing villains that murdered his family? If he is killing them one at a time, should each confrontation scene end with him having some sort of set back?

Only if he hasn't accomplished that particular goal. If he has killed the first target, no setback, move on to second.

There's a part of me that thinks you need to stop worrying about your structure and go back to reading good books so you understand how they work.

Jeff
 

AnnieColleen

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So what about a story where the protagonist is tracking down and killing villains that murdered his family? If he is killing them one at a time, should each confrontation scene end with him having some sort of set back?

A couple of things for you to think about here:

How does each confrontation change him, or change the story around him? If he’s doing nothing but working his way through a checklist of villains, and the same thing keeps happening — goal accomplished, no problems, on to the next — that’s going to make for a boring story.

How are the villains reacting to him? They aren’t going to be just sitting around waiting their turn. They’ll have increasing defenses in place; they’ll be waiting for him; they’ll be trying to go after him in turn. Or, the ones he does catch unawares, do they have family of their own around who might be caught in the conflict and throw off his plans? Or, how are other people reacting — police? Bystanders? Friends or whatever family he has left? All of those are going to introduce setbacks, so make sure you’re working through the logic of all the characters involved and not just following through the main character’s plans. (That last is a bad habit I’ve found I have to be aware of.)
 

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It depends on how you write. Some people are more scene-driven than others.

As a very scene-driven writer (love setting up those set pieces) I always have a plan for the scene which fits within the overall story plan. The scene must get from point A to point B while also achieving something for the main story.

I tend to think not so much in terms of conflict (that's a given) - more in terms of a question answered and a further question raised.
 

PamelaC

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So what about a story where the protagonist is tracking down and killing villains that murdered his family? If he is killing them one at a time, should each confrontation scene end with him having some sort of set back?

I think it's important to recognize what your protagonist's actual goal is. It isn't simply killing the people that murdered his family. That's what he's going to do in an effort to achieve his goal, which I assume is vengeance, justice, peace, whatever. So, even as he's picking off these villains one at a time, is he really achieving his goal? Maybe the killings are setting other events into motion that are making his life more difficult. Maybe the families of the people he's killing are now looking for him and want to kill him. Maybe he realizes deep down that seeking revenge isn't giving him the closure or peace that he was hoping to find.

Two of my favorite TV shows are Game of Thrones and Sons of Anarchy. In both shows, every time a character achieves something that he/she thinks is getting him/her closer to his/her goal, it just seems to set off a chain reaction of complications that bring about new goals and new conflicts. There is usually an larger, more important goal that drives the protagonists, but they have the smaller battles to fight that pop up along the way as they pursue that elusive main goal. And more often than not, their efforts to get closer to that goal make them do things that trigger events that actually do set them back.
 

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The danger in conforming to imaginary structure 'rules' for each scene is that you run the risk of losing sight of the whole. A scene is no different to a word, a sentence or a paragraph, in that it is used in the context of the writing around it.

Isolating scenes in this way can lead to a series of short stories instead of interlinked and flowing passages of writing.
 

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Stop obsessing about the "rules" for things like this, and go read major successful authors. See how they do it. There's a spectrum of ways, and I doubt very much that Stephen King or Ursula LeGuin or any number of others I could name ever paid any attention to somebody's "rules" about such things.

caw
 

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I think of goal-driven stories as journeys, maybe not physical but emotional or intellectual or social instead. Or some combination of the four kinds of journeys. (I use the mnemonic PEMS for physical, emotional, mental, social to remind me of the kinds of journeys.)

The plot is like a path through an ocean or a complex terrain. It can be fairly straight, but the more interesting journeys (for me) wander a bit, maybe even turn back on themselves which is where the occasional setback comes in.

Also, as our MC(s) travel, they may change. Or they may stay the same, but better understanding leads them to change their goal. In the stories, for instance, where a teen boy/girl wants to go to the prom with a certain girl/boy, our MC may realize that a different girl/boy would be a more satisfying date. Or they may decide they'd rather NOT go to the prom.
_______________________________
Most stories-as-journeys have one single goal at the end, a treasure or regaining one's honor or discovering who done it or getting a hot date. (PEMS again.)

But we may have multi-goal stories as well as single-goal stories. One of my WIPs is an example. Cameron of the FBI: Her First Year is made up of several ever-longer and ever-tougher cases. Each case is self-contained. But there is a longer book-wide story arc - Jessica Cameron gets more skill and self-confidence. In an epilogue she's called in to her boss's office and promoted to a Special Agent in Charge - SAIC - of a task force.
 
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BethS

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does that mean every time they achieve a goal they must be met by a setback?

I would replace "setbacks" with "consequences." Consequences can include, but aren't limited to, setbacks. They can lead the character to all sorts of unexpected places, some good, some bad.

What needs to happen in a scene, on the most basic level, is for something to change. That change can be a clear event, or it can be as subtle as a shift in a character's emotions or perspective.
 
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The Black Prince

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Stop obsessing about the "rules" for things like this, and go read major successful authors. See how they do it. There's a spectrum of ways, and I doubt very much that Stephen King or Ursula LeGuin or any number of others I could name ever paid any attention to somebody's "rules" about such things.

caw

I doubt too many on here genuinely obsess about rules. It's just a paradigm for talking about writing shit.

corps
 

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I do follow a structure when it comes to my scenes, but only because my scenes tend to ramble and I can forget where I'm going with them. I go in 2 parts: first is the actual scene and the second is the sequel. I lay them out like this, in accordance with K.M. Weiland's book 5 SECRETS OF STORY STRUCTURE:

Setup: The POV, where it is, what the weather's like, a note about the previous scene, and whatever else is needed to remind me of where I am.

Goal: Character's goal for this particular scene. I've had goals vary from, "Stab the beast in its soft spot at the precise time" to "Get some sleep" so the goal can be as simple or complex as you want/it needs to be.

Conflict: What's preventing the goal from being achieved? Again, this could be anything: physical impediments (the beast is really damn fast), mental (my anxiety is going a mile a minute and I can't sleep), emotional (I feel really bad about killing the beast and don't want to do it), you get the idea.

Disaster: The fallout of the goal not being reached. Once more, this could be anything. It can be as big as missing the target and the character getting injured or as little as someone needing the character and sleep is not achieved.

The sequel is the immediate followup to the scene. Again, I follow Weiland's formula and lay them out like so:

Reaction: It's the character's emotional and physical reactions to the disaster and the previous scene. I use this as a springboard to lead into the next scene, with the reaction affecting not only the following categories of the sequel, but also what's going to happen in the next scene. So, if the character missed the hit and is injured, I would put here their emotional state (panicked, afraid, angry) and physical state (OWOWOWOWOWOW) as well as how they react to those states.

Dilemma: This is the decision the character has to make. For example, they can either attack the beast again or they can try a new tactic or they can run. The main idea is that there has to be a choice that the character grapples with for a moment (or more.)

Decision: Character chooses a side in the Dilemma and follows through with it.

I usually add a section for notes after this, about how the decision affects the end of the scene, or just to jot down ideas or things if I think of them later. I know that structure this rigid isn't for everyone, it just works well for me due to my personal issues with anxiety, perfectionism, and need for order. I can attest that it has helped me immensely in getting my book into a cohesive whole, as well as giving me opportunities to build tension/suspense by chaining several scenes together.

Hope this helps, Garmr!
 

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There's no rules or 'secrets' of scene structure.

Yes, the above is one method of structuring scenes (and their relative sequels). But it's no secret - that method has been around for many, many decades. Both Jack M Bickham, and Dwight V Swain, cover these issues.

I'm glad the above works for you, thereness, :Hug2: but it would drive me nuts to try and have every scene follow that strict process.

Beth's take of 'consequences/change' appeals to me.
 
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Laer Carroll

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So far we've talked about stories as goal directed. The MC or MCs want something and go after it, usually because some event intruded on their settled lives and unsettled them. The goal may be physical, as a treasure or a place. But it may be non-physical.

I've heard these kinds of stories likened to journeys. Usually we know where we want to go on a journey. Usually we make at least a tentative plan for how to get there.

Or we may strike out with only one "goal" in mind: get the Hell out of here!

Often our plan goes awry, and we have to replan. That's where setbacks come in. Or as BethS pointed out, more generally, CONSEQUENCES come in. Every time we conquer or bypass an obstacle we learn more, about ourselves or the terrain or both. We also use up our resources, of strength or wealth or whatever. We may also gain resources, become stronger, find allies, find treasure. With these changes we realize the problems with our plan, and have to come up with fixes to it. Or maybe make an entirely new plan.

So I'd say there IS a structure to stories. But it's a very general one, without any milestones of "call to adventure at the one-tenth point" or "reversal of fortune at the midpoint" or some such. It's the structure that all journeys have.
 
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SKara

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it would drive me nuts to try and have every scene follow that strict process.

Glad to know I'm not the only one :)

It drove me nuts a few weeks ago after I re-read it somewhere (I had read it before, but as with all other things, I just learned the concept and then relied on intuition to guide me). I wanted to improve my latest WIP and decided somehow that that was a good way to revise scenes. And then I not only hated the resulting writers' block, I hated my story and I hated everything.

Yet another reminder (for me) that sticking slavishly to "rules" kills my creativity and desire to write.
 

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Writing isn't painting by numbers. The structure of the whole is far more important than the structure of a scene.

I realise the appeal of rules, even when there aren't any, but I do think it's important for writers not to think in terms of restrictions.
 

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I would replace "setbacks" with "consequences." Consequences can include, but aren't limited to, setbacks. They can lead the character to all sorts of unexpected places, some good, some bad.

What needs to happen in a scene, on the most basic level, is for something to change. That change can be a clear event, or it can be as subtle as a shift in a character's emotions or perspective.

I find this advice reassuring.

I am still grappling with my WIP and worry about the amount of conflict in my scenes, which seems insufficient to the purpose. The notion of tightly structured individual scenes makes me want to break out in hives.

Since my story is still evolving, I think I need to finish it first and fix conflict issues in the rewrite/editing process.
 

Harlequin

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I've never understood scene structure. I still don't. The explanations are abstract to the point of disconnectedness for me (I can't see how to apply what they're talking about).

Scenes just sort of feel right when done and if not sure, betas can point out what's wrong.
 

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At school I had two friends who played piano. They would alternate day to day playing for morning assembly.
One guy played by ear, in a flamboyant, devil-may-care manner. The other played in a regimented, structured way - by the book in effect.
Both were good musicians but we enjoyed the flamboyant guy more, it was just more fun and spontaneous, and flowed better. He played with less structure.
Isn't writing similar?
 

Harlequin

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Writing isn't a performance in that way.

Musicality and interpretation are an important part of performing piano but I personally don't feel it's comparable to writing a novel.

Composing music and writing a novel would be more equivalent, I think.

The performance version of writing would surely be acting or reading aloud.