How loose are the grammar rules in novel writing?

I'm not seeing the problem...

ETA: It might be that I'm not very good with grammar. For starters, I've never met an ellipsis I didn't love...

It seems it would disrupt the reader much more to have another comma after Soon... It reads pretty smoothly to me as is?

NathanCosby said:

I am currently reading a 1975 novel by Jeffrey Konvitz called The Sentinel. Konvitz seemed to enjoy a properly placed incomplete sentence (as I do). That's okay! But I came across one particular piece of writing that confused me. When I say "one particular piece," I only mean ten words. There were ten words at the end of a break in chapter twelve that bothered me. Here is the quoted text:

"Gradually, her eyes began to close. Soon she was asleep."

Am I the only one driven crazy about this? It's the exact same sentence structure back to back. In the first sentence he used the comma, and in the second sentence he negated the comma.

How can you write loose without disrupting the readability?

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Haven't got a problem with that.

mccardey said:

For starters, I've never met an ellipsis I didn't love...

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Don't let Cory Bernardi / Lyle Shelton etc hear you say that. Next thing we know, there'll be a scare campaign about slippery slopes...

NathanCosby said:

When I read books I try to find the "rhythm" of the writer. So, as I'm reading, I can almost see what's coming right before it gets to me, because I'm bobbing my head along with the language and the plot beats.

All I'm saying, is that (while I'm enjoying the book) Konvitz can't keep me on the same beat as him.

PS. I actually am a little high

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Oh, I do that! (The rhythm thing, not the getting high thing.)

PS. I am not high at all. But I am having a lovely cup of tea.

Fair enough, Nathan, but there's no grammar issues in the quoted sentences.

NathanCosby said:

I'm going to try to explain the way I feel, and it's probably going to sound like I'm high:

When I read books I try to find the "rhythm" of the writer. So, as I'm reading, I can almost see what's coming right before it gets to me, because I'm bobbing my head along with the language and the plot beats.

All I'm saying, is that (while I'm enjoying the book) Konvitz can't keep me on the same beat as him.

PS. I actually am a little high

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Nothing wrong with reading for rhythm, but it will be subjective.

Th rhythm there doesn't bother me. Grammatically it's not incorrect. But it's alright if it bothers you--a very subjective thing.

You are conflating grammar with style. The passage you quote has no grammar problems. The word choices made are matters of style, nothing more. You don't like the style, and that's okay. But nothing is wrong with it.

caw

ALL rules in novel writing, grammatical and stylistic included, are as loose as you have skill to break.

When people speak, rules of grammar often fly out of the window.
Other than that, style, readability, flow matter the most. The rules exist for the purpose of readability IMO.

indianroads said:

When people speak, rules of grammar often fly out of the window.
Other than that, style, readability, flow matter the most. The rules exist for the purpose of readability IMO.

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I have a character who uses kinda and woulda, in dialogue and in narration, as well as a few other quirks. Most readers roll with it, but one beta suggested I ask what you kind critters think about doing so. This seemed like a good place to ask.

Since you all ask for a sample, LOL, I'll add a short one:

Her mouth hung open like she was dead, but then I couldn’t see no more. The tears were stinging my eyes.

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Would it read smoother with: I couldn't see any more. I can say, his voice is spot-on for me in the sample.

I love all the discussions on AW! Even when I don't comment, I stalk them all, bwa-ha-ha!

PS. It's a multi-POV story, so it's mostly grammatically correct with the others.

DarienW said:

Her mouth hung open like she was dead, but then I couldn’t see no more. The tears were stinging my eyes.

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Fine with me. Grammatically incorrect, but it gives me a character whose voice I hear.

Thanks so much, mccardey! He has a very strong voice. I feel like I channel him and I don't even know where he comes from!!!

Not sure I see what is grammatically incorrect there, little doggie.

Enlighten the confused baby.

As a sidebar:
We recently hosted a Taekwondo Master from Korea - he was young, just 22 years old, and our language was a pretty big challenge for him. One of the things he would say when he would get frustrated while trying to communicate was English is crazy. I think he was pretty much spot on.

indianroads said:

English is crazy.

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I was a Chinese linguist many years ago, twelve years ago learned enough Spanish to get by in Argentina, and am studying French. Chinese has one verb form. The Romance languages have many, but once you get past the apparent complexity are actually quite regular despite the occasional irregular verbs. But English? Compared to the others, it IS crazy.

I'd guess this comes from the fact that it's basically German (Saxon) with a lot of overlay of French (Norman), so it has a split personality. Also, many immigrants speak it, and it's widely used as a common commercial language. So it has lots of loan words, and fragments of other language grammars.

It's a wonder than ANYONE speaks grammatical English. Yet we do by the time we become kids, and most little kid's grammar is so good that it's jarring when they make mistakes.

An Egyptian friend of mine speaks five languages - Farsi, Egyptian Arabic, Italian, German, and English. I met him when I worked at Olivetti (an Italian company obviously) - and my friend's Italian was so good that the Italian nationals would ask him to correct their grammar before they sent important memo's back to Italy. Anyway - this friend told me that in his opinion, the most common language was "Bad English".

Bufty said:

Not sure I see what is grammatically incorrect there, little doggie.

Enlighten the confused baby.

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"Couldn't see no more" would have earned a barking rebuke and a smack from Sr Anne Mary when I was a tot. (OTOH, Sr Anne Mary was wrong about a lot of things, as it turns out. see: papal infallability.)

I probably oughtn't to comment on grammary things, being a pup and all. But I mean well.

ETA: DarienW, Aussie writer Tim Winton has a new one out - The Shepherd's Hut. The voice is utterly compelling. Have a look inside.

"The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary." James Nicoll

mccardey said:

"Couldn't see no more" would have earned a barking rebuke and a smack from Sr Anne Mary when I was a tot. (OTOH, Sr Anne Mary was wrong about a lot of things, as it turns out. see: papal infallability.)

I probably oughtn't to comment on grammary things, being a pup and all. But I mean well.

ETA: DarienW, Aussie writer Tim Winton has a new one out - The Shepherd's Hut. The voice is utterly compelling. Have a look inside.

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How funny, i had a Sister Mary Anne.

That look inside is OMG! First time I ever saw someone besides my character and Archie Bunker use youse, LOL! There's actually a few other things in common. So interesting!

Thanks for the link!

mccardey said:

"Couldn't see no more" would have earned a barking rebuke and a smack from Sr Anne Mary when I was a tot.

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Pardon my own confusion, but...your reply above was a reply to Bufty, who said he couldn't find anything ungrammatical about the two sentences the OP posted, which were: "Gradually, her eyes began to close. Soon she was asleep."

So where does "couldn't see no more" come into it? What have I missed?

BethS said:

Pardon my own confusion, but...your reply above was a reply to Bufty, who said he couldn't find anything ungrammatical about the two sentences the OP posted, which were: "Gradually, her eyes began to close. Soon she was asleep."

So where does "couldn't see no more" come into it? What have I missed?

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DarienW - #14.

(I'm not sure why the quote didn't have an attrib. tag, but I fixed it. Thanks for the heads-up.)