Am I overthinking this...

Harlequin · Mar 23, 2018

I have two plot-relevant chars in current WIP. Not MCs, not protags/antags, just supporting cast, but both are very powerful, and (depending on your point of view) slightly mystical.

The first is a black woman--she dies early on. (That in itself is maybe a problem?) The second is a part-Sioux woman--doesn't die, features a reasonable amount. Modern, educated, not "ancient", no stupid bad English or anything like that.

I'm trying to avoid the Mystical Native trope because I hate it. But I'm also reluctant to convert the two most powerful people in the setting into Caucasians just to avoid it, because that feels problematic too. Am I massively overthinking this? Or does it sound off kilter?

For context, if it helps, almost everyone in the cast--including MC--is mixed or BME (or nonhuman...) so these two chars in question don't particularly stand out in that regard.

P.K. Torrens · Mar 23, 2018

Let me read it and then I’ll tell you.

*grin*

Brightdreamer · Mar 23, 2018

Unable to tell without reading the story in question, but at this point I'd say, yes, you're probably overthinking it.

If you have beta readers who point out the issue, then there may be something to address. Until then, this is likely yet another permutation of the Procrastination Beast undermining your confidence. For now, ignore it write your story.

The Black Prince · Mar 23, 2018

Yes, write the story and do the overthinking in the edit.

Harlequin · Mar 23, 2018

Well, I suppose it came up because I'm editing the early sections now.

Didn't have human characters in last MS so just never ever came up.

blackcat777 · Mar 23, 2018

BethS · Mar 24, 2018

Harlequin said:
I have two plot-relevant chars in current WIP. Not MCs, not protags/antags, just supporting cast, but both are very powerful, and (depending on your point of view) slightly mystical.

The first is a black woman--she dies early on. (That in itself is maybe a problem?)

Why would it be? If she dies, she dies. Unless you think her death hurts the story in some way, in which case you keep her alive because she has a role yet to play.

Am I massively overthinking this?

IMO and in a word, yes. Let the characters be who they are.

Harlequin · Mar 24, 2018

Many thanks Blackcat.

Beths, re the death thing--I guess I was thinking of the Black Dude Dies First / Vasquez always dies type tropes.

BethS · Mar 24, 2018

Harlequin said:
Beths, re the death thing--I guess I was thinking of the Black Dude Dies First / Vasquez always dies type tropes.

Sooner or later, everything becomes a trope. I think you have to just put all that out of your head and write the story.

bombergirl69 · Mar 24, 2018

I agree about writing the story, but also that it's hard. My husband was Native and carried medicines. He really was a wise and (when he felt like it) mystical fellow. I wrote a whole novel that I considered sort of love song to him--several characters in the book carry his traits (and he could see that!) and at least one offers some insights to the MC. Unfortunately, my husband died, so now I do wonder...uh oh, am I doing that mystical Native trope thing? The insights do not solve the crime and the love interest (Native) has not followed traditional ways and also struggles with alcohol (as did my husband)--another "uh oh"...

I can totally see your dilemma but completely agree about writing the story!!! i'm hoping that yes, authentic character development will trump any tropeishness(??)

Harlequin · Mar 24, 2018

Sorry to hear about your husband, bomber

that's tough.

The story is mostly written (by way of explanation) and it's not my first ms. I'm overhauling the early sections to bring them in line with the ending, so I can get the last couple of chapters lined up.

Just in that phase of doubting absolutely every decision! As you do.

bombergirl69 · Mar 24, 2018

Thank you.

I've read enough of what you've shared in SYW to have total confidence that you write authentic, engaging characters and don't put up some stick "redskin" speaking broken English!! I bet your story's great. I still get the struggle though!

indianroads · Mar 24, 2018

Have you tried writing a quick bio for the character that's giving you trouble? Sometimes I have to get to know my characters before they become fully alive and have a distinct voice.

ETA: The wife of one of my friends is a native american, and is a medicine woman - she is also an ER nurse, and is among the most intelligent and intriguing people I've ever known.

Laer Carroll · Mar 24, 2018

Yes, you are overthinking. But as you point out this is what happens when we're in rewrite mode. We just have to rein in our tendency.

Odile_Blud · Mar 24, 2018

I'm a black woman, and I don't find the black woman in your story dying to be offensive. Do what's best for your story, and if killing her first works for the story, make it happen. I think it's far worse to treat minority characters differently because they are minorities.

The Black Prince · Mar 25, 2018

Odile_Blud said:
I'm a black woman, and I don't find the black woman in your story dying to be offensive. Do what's best for your story, and if killing her first works for the story, make it happen. I think it's far worse to treat minority characters differently because they are minorities.

Nail. Head.

I tend to upset people very easily with my views (despite being a tree hugging flower child from way back), but it seems to me that no great literature was ever produced by someone obsessed with whom they might be offending.

Just deliver your muse and if you've truly tapped into the zeitgeist you'll be applauded no matter how appalling your characters are. Your characters are not you. The other thing is this...morality happens in the mind of the reader. It doesn't have to follow some colour by numbers prescription within the pages of your story. People are nice and people are arseholes - frequently the same people at the same time.

buz · Mar 25, 2018

Harlequin said:
I have two plot-relevant chars in current WIP. Not MCs, not protags/antags, just supporting cast, but both are very powerful, and (depending on your point of view) slightly mystical.

The first is a black woman--she dies early on. (That in itself is maybe a problem?) The second is a part-Sioux woman--doesn't die, features a reasonable amount. Modern, educated, not "ancient", no stupid bad English or anything like that.

I'm trying to avoid the Mystical Native trope because I hate it. But I'm also reluctant to convert the two most powerful people in the setting into Caucasians just to avoid it, because that feels problematic too. Am I massively overthinking this? Or does it sound off kilter?

For context, if it helps, almost everyone in the cast--including MC--is mixed or BME (or nonhuman...) so these two chars in question don't particularly stand out in that regard.

...I am bad with acronyms, what is BME? (ETA: I googled it nvm yay)

I would say it would come off kinda tropeyblugh if everyone else was white, and only your mystical/magical people are not. Like, yanno, if it's Kenneth the Mediocre Man being the protag going to seek the boundless power of the Magical Native in order to defeat the blah sort of a thing. Or if you have a single black character and that is the character that dies first...

But if everyone is BME/mixed then I'm not sure it's so much an issue.

buz · Mar 25, 2018

The Black Prince said:
I tend to upset people very easily with my views (despite being a tree hugging flower child from way back), but it seems to me that no great literature was ever produced by someone obsessed with whom they might be offending.

I don't know that it's so much about avoiding offense as it is about avoiding tired old tropes that have been played out over and over and over again, particularly in ways that, en masse, enforce stereotypes and/or crappy messages about people?

Harlequin · Mar 25, 2018

Thanks all--lots of wise words.

And yeah, I'd rather avoid a stale cliche if I can >.> Gives me eyeroll when the Asian characters ALWAYS use katanas or know martial arts or speak Engrish, so I figure other similar tropes are probably irritating for other people ;-)

BethS · Mar 25, 2018

The Black Prince said:
it seems to me that no great literature was ever produced by someone obsessed with whom they might be offending.

Absolutely agree.

indianroads · Mar 25, 2018

Sometimes overplaying a stereotype to the point of showing how absurd it is works well.
There was a movie back in the 70's or 80's that had an Asian MC. He didn't know martial arts and spoke perfect English. At one point he tried to eat rice with a set of nunchucks because he didn't know what they were - and another time he got accosted in a dark alley... as the bad guys approached the MC said, "Watch out!" he pointed to his eyes. "I'm Asian." His attackers backed off, saying, "Oh shit... he probably knows Karate or something... let's get out of here!"
It was pretty funny.

Harlequin · Mar 25, 2018

that does sound pretty funny. But it's sort of turning the stereotype on its head

buz · Mar 25, 2018

Yer, satire's a horse of a different color.

BethS · Mar 26, 2018

indianroads said:
Sometimes overplaying a stereotype to the point of showing how absurd it is works well.
There was a movie back in the 70's or 80's that had an Asian MC. He didn't know martial arts and spoke perfect English. At one point he tried to eat rice with a set of nunchucks because he didn't know what they were - and another time he got accosted in a dark alley... as the bad guys approached the MC said, "Watch out!" he pointed to his eyes. "I'm Asian." His attackers backed off, saying, "Oh shit... he probably knows Karate or something... let's get out of here!"
It was pretty funny.

I think I saw that movie. But I can't remember the title!

indianroads · Mar 26, 2018

BethS said:
I think I saw that movie. But I can't remember the title!

I can't either... and I'm not really sure what the rest of the movie was about. The point I wanted to make was that we can use a stereotype to speak against stereotypes.

Am I overthinking this...

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