On races of immortal beings

kwanzaabot

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I think they're a staple of fantasy -- and mythology -- for a reason.

Coming to terms with our own mortality is probably one of the defining aspects of human culture. We have entire religions built around it, and our day-to-day lives revolve around it too. We work until we're middle-aged to save enough to live comfortably until we die and pass on our legacies to our children. Even going out, finding a partner, settling down, it's all about passing on our legacy to the next generation, about what happens after we're gone. People care about politics, about science, about the environment, because caring about those things determines what kind of world we're leaving to our children.

Immortals, by definition, don't have to worry about that. They're the ultimate "Other", because their lives, their mindsets are nothing like our own.
 

RobertLCollins

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I've brought immortal magical races into a couple of my recent works. The inspiration in both cases was some basic reading on the Celtic "Fair Folk." Depending on the legend, the Fair Folk cannot be killed, or can be killed in only specific ways. Most legends had them treating mortals as playthings of one sort or another, but in others they seemed to express genuine interest in certain mortals.

In my works, I've had my Fairy Folk be nearly immortal. They effectively live forever, but can be killed if the magic used against them is strong enough. In one of my worlds, they tended to only engage with mortals if they came across them and liked what they saw or felt. They seemed capricious, but that was because their long lives gave them a long view of things. In the other world, the Fairy Folk tend to stay away from humans, but have engaged with them now and again. They could choose to become mortal if they fell in love with a mortal. Also, the daughters of Fair Folk and human couplings are able to use magic, and pass that ability to their own daughters.

If you haven't already, you might look up legends of Fair Folk from around the world. There are a variety of ways that cultures viewed beings that weren't human but weren't gods. If you can find an approach that's unusual, it might make your work stand out. But if you have an approach you're comfortable with, I'd say stick with it. It'll be a small part of what gives you the passion to keep writing.
 

Kjbartolotta

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I'd sign up for immortality real quick, but it always carries with it a tragic element. At best, you live to see all your friends, loved ones, pets, and favorite sports teams die, only leaving you to remember them. At worst, it carries with it all kinds of squicky implications. Do you age? What happens if you lose a body part? And what about your mind, both psychologically and physiologically? At some point, it seems like there are only so many memories you can cram in there.

I enjoyed the Nonmen in R. Scott Bakker's Second Apocalypse series, among the gloomier extrapolations on a race of immortals. After thousands of years, the majority of them have succumbed to dementia, doomed never to die but existing in a state just above catatonia. A curious habit of theirs is to kill the people they love, since only the great pain of the action will leave an imprint strong enough to last the years.

Of course, The Culture takes a more optimistic approach. Also, there's a culture that trades in novelty right there for you. In Hydrogen Sonata, you get to meet a 10,000 years old, and their doing just fine, by no means has extreme age dampened his joie d'vivre. The issue of memory is solved through technology, IIRC they're just storing it off-site. Same with House of Suns by Alastair Reynolds, one of my all-time favorite novels. The Shatterlings have something called a trove, which let's them store all but their most recent memories (recent in the last millenia or so).

And on the issue of Reynolds, I also like his Ultranauts. Not quite immortal, but due to relativistic travel they end up skipping over long period of history, being perpetual outsiders. Because of this, and due to their technophiliac leanings and backstabby ship culture, they end up developing an extremely outre society, rivethead/goth/metal/industrial culture taken to a hilarious extreme. You live long enough, it seems like it's hard not to be goth. But then that's just me.

I think the issue of memory has to come up, in some way of another. If magic is involved, then that's an easy handwave. But I'm still not sure how you would write a time abyss, no one in the world has that amount of life experience (I think). I guess plenty of authors have tried their best to approximate it and still succeed.

What do elves worry about?

The movement of the stars. The changing of the seasons. I view fae & elfypantskind as self-mythologized beings, not quite individual tangles of neuroses like use but rather personified archetypes. A certain godlike quality, like their identities are streamlined around a concept or element. Endless patience and self-reflection leads to a certain egolessness, perhaps they just seek to be the mirror upon the world outside of them. But, dunno, never met an elf. That's just how I see it.
 
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kwanzaabot

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This is really thoughtful. This is why I'm trying to scale up my imaginings in what could pose a threat.

In my WIP, status quo is a big thing, and there have been instances of a few individuals being put to death for engaging in forbidden magic that would collectively threaten the immortals' way of life (not unlike all Goa'uld system lords banding together to fight Anubis... please excuse my SG-1 obsession). But I want to go deeper into this...

What do elves worry about? Vampires (err, at least the ones I find enjoyable to read about) have sufficient handicaps with sunlight, the need for blood, etc.

In my WIP, elves are the descendants of the god Yyng, who gave up his divinity to live among mortals. However, while the elves revere Yyng, they somewhat resent him for giving up his immortality. So, they turned to magic to make themselves immortal. They live forever as a result, but they're still prone to disease, which can eventually kill their bodies- but then they just carry on anyway, as conscious souls inhabiting walking corpses (which are glamoured with illusion magics). Eventually those corpses rot away, and the priests consecrate their bones and turn them into ancestor-bone amulets, which are worn by their descendants to offer advice and augment their own magical power. But even as bones, they're still fully conscious.

As a result, they fear death (they have no afterlife, once you're dead you're dead as far as they're concerned), and consider humanity to be the ultimate existential threat, as human beings tend to accept death as an inevitability.
 

Laer Carroll

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Immortals are a staple of SF/F. They are a rich source of story ideas, leading to many MANY ways of dealing with them. Wen Spencer's Elfhome series is one and a favorite one; I've read the series several times.

My Shapechanger Tales series is another. I wanted a very realistic approach. I chose to keep the settings contemporary, or nearly so.

The Mary McCarthy trilogy begins in 1860s Ireland, an era and a place with which I'm very familiar (as you might expect from my name!). It deals with many of the issues of that place and time: tenant farmers and mid-level imported English nobility, the Irish Republican Brotherhood, the early days of steam and electricity, the spreading of first-wave feminism in its several forms.

Many historical characters have bit parts: Charles Dickens, Prince Albert, the heads of the IRB, George Boole (whose books form the basis for computers), and many more. This includes their wives: Boole's wife Mary was a talented mathematician. Her close friend is the wife of the president of Queens College Cork, a working botanist whose encyclopedia of plants was the standard for many years. (Published under a pen name, of course.)

Mary was on her death at 53 a hardheaded farmer's wife expert at the kind of creativity people living on the edge must exercise. She awakens in her grave a teenager with what we might call superpowers. Though they are more realistic than those you see in comics. She can shapechange, but slowly and not radically. Her muscles are only a couple dozen times as strong as normal. She can heal with a touch, but this can screw up her "patients" so she must study medicine to use the power responsibly. She can eat anything, including soft wood and arsenic, but prefers well-cooked meals.

And being immortal lives with the sad truth that all her family and friends will someday be dust.

Another changer is a post-doc young woman living in quasi-contemporary Puerto Rico in an alternate universe where Earth's space travel is more advanced than our own and electronics less so. Since I'm an aerospace and software engineer I can keep the tech realistic, though it plays only a background part. Sasha is killed during kidnapping by sex-slavers and wakens under the sea a creature similar to the Creature from the Black Lagoon. Regaining her life on land she sets out to get revenge on the ring.

There are very few shapechangers in my alternate universe, so they rarely have to deal with other changers. Instead their problems are routine evil such as crime bosses and terrorists and racial and social prejudice - all part of my desire to remain realistic.

This is one approach. In my reading, however, I prefer the high fantasy fairies and other supernatural creatures. And eager to hear more about other ways to deal with immortals. Love this thread!
 

MythMonger

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I'd sign up for immortality real quick, but it always carries with it a tragic element. At best, you live to see all your friends, loved ones, pets, and favorite sports teams die, only leaving you to remember them. At worst, it carries with it all kinds of squicky implications. Do you age? What happens if you lose a body part? And what about your mind, both psychologically and physiologically? At some point, it seems like there are only so many memories you can cram in there.

This is how I like to see immortality portrayed.

What they would fear most, I think, is those problems that can't be solved by death.

What if they're trapped? I remember a scene in Interview with a Vampire where a vampire was trapped in a coffin, upside down, and would have remained there until he was rescued.

What if their world is destroyed and they have no means to get to another planet? Do they just continue to live, floating in space, with no air to breathe, no way to talk with another being, always alone?

Immortality may solve one of the biggest problems, but it provides a host of others.
 

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Immortal beings can be really fascinating, where I sometimes get lost is the eternal beings. Kind of hard to invest in conflict when they're eternal and best your hoping to kick the can down the road for some other poor saps to deal with whatever fallout comes from your story!
 

Kjbartolotta

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Immortal beings can be really fascinating, where I sometimes get lost is the eternal beings. Kind of hard to invest in conflict when they're eternal and best your hoping to kick the can down the road for some other poor saps to deal with whatever fallout comes from your story!

Yeah, it limits the stakes in some unique and challenging ways. Can be fun too, but mostly just hair-pulling. In my own setting, I've made the possibility of madness, which the Dead are always teetering on the edge of, the threat they must constantly push back against. Still, having characters who live forever (they're already dead, of course, but that's a technicality), don't eat or sleep, and have limited regeneration capacity is very frustrating.
 

Kjbartolotta

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The consequences of humans turned immortal that my imagination defaults to are the tragedy of loss, and also how regeneration can be weaponized against the immortal in question (endless torture sessions).

But if there's an entire race of beings with absurdly long lifespans, relative to their closed culture, they wouldn't experience that same loss that humans would in watching their loved ones age. However, I can't imagine how painful loss would be if someone you were with for 2000 years died because of magic/something. If an immortal race had a low birthrate, a threat that wipes their numbers quickly could also be particularly devastating.

*writes down for future inspiration*

Actually, that comes up in The Second Apocalypse too. Heh, parts of it made me go pale, but ended up being one of my favorite fantasy series.

Considering that Hell Is Other People, I'd assume there would be a sense relief in saying goodbye to the people you spent the last 2000 years. Not enough so that pain wouldn't be the overriding emotion, but I'd sense there would be something bittersweet about it too. To finally put aside the burden of your memories, letting go of the endless tangle and complications of the relationships you've acquired. I don't know if it's just me, but I tend to hold on to negative emotion pretty easily, positive feelings can sometimes feel more ephemeral. I don't know if I'd be able to stand two millenia in a hothouse. But then, that's what makes the concept interesting.

A mass dieoff would probably not just be tragic, but apocalyptic. In 2000 years, I'd imagine everyone would get very well-acquianted with their duties and develop an exceptional talent for them. I'd suspect a degree of cross-training would take place, but in a society where everyone is a master, you don't have many apprenctices to pick up the slack.

In my own City of the Dead setting, you have Entombment ceremonies for when the Dead have finally had enough. They build elaborate mausoleums for themselves, with surrounding charitable centers, schools, libraries, and monuments to their own greatness. Then they are put into an state of almost total catatonia, where they are sealed away forever. After that, they become treated as semi-divine icons, worshipped and remembered well, celebrated for their virtue and compassion. There is perhaps a sad or mournful element to it, but the act of Entombment is a celebration, and, frequently, a helpful way to remove unhappy people with large concentrations of wealth from the society.
 

Kjbartolotta

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Ooh, I haven't thought of this.

I've also thought about how humans-turned-immortal may actively seek death after so many centuries - the way Anne Rice handles it with her vampire series always left a huge impression on me.

Then there's the black humor approach. You could finally play Hopscotch to Oblivion and win. Real immortals don't bungee jump with cords. Etc.

If it were me, I'd go for suicide as performance art. Given the proper budget, you could make it positively Wagnerian.
 

indianroads

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In my WIP, my MC and his sister (also a major character) are androids, but only learn of that fact at the end of the story. Earlier versions of themselves built their next iteration, then shut down (effectively dying). After learning of his reality, my MC fears his eventual isolation when humanity eventually dies out - he worries about being alone, and at the same time is reluctant to establish deep relations with people because their death would be so painful. They are limited by their power supply though, so they are mortal in that sense, but their 'batteries' will last for thousands of years. Anyway, I like having the internal conflict of wanting a relationship, and fear of outliving those they care for.
 

Laer Carroll

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They can't swap batteries? Poor design. And do they eat? If so, that should supply at least minimal energy. And if not, how do they not know they are artificial beings?

I gather you're only starting this work, as these questions occurred to me with no more than a second's thought.
 
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frimble3

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They can't swap batteries? Poor design.
Or sound business practices. I have a foot ulcer. One of the things they tried was a 'PICO' vacuum dressing. A little thing, about the size of small cell-phone. It runs on batteries, which the nurse has to put in, and the batteries only last about a week. They are not replaceable. It's not that they are built-in, they have to be added, but there's something, in the wiring I guess, that stops them from responding to a new set of batteries. A nurse told me that they were $200 Canadian, each. Entirely worth it, they worked brilliantly, but still, it's hard not to think of it as a Shkreli-level rip off.
It's not hard to imagine that androids would be built the same way, to allow for the selling of new models in the future. Otherwise, you'd only need one android, ever.
 
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Kjbartolotta

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Or sound business practices. I have a foot ulcer. One of the things they tried was a 'PICO' vacuum dressing. A little thing, about the size of small cell-phone. It runs on batteries, which the nurse has to put in, and the batteries only last about a week. They are not replaceable. It's not that they are built-in, they have to be added, but there's something, in the wiring I guess, that stops them from responding to a new set of batteries. A nurse told me that they were $200 Canadian, each. Entirely worth it, they worked brilliantly, but still, it's hard not to think of it as a Shkreli-level rip off.
It's not hard to imagine that androids would be built the same way, to allow for the selling of new models in the future. Otherwise, you'd only need one android, ever.

Easy to imagine built-in obsolescence as a standard industry practice. Not only does the consumer have to pay through the nose to upgrade, so does the product. :)
 

Kjbartolotta

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Immortality with a cost!

In life, one either acquires debt or dividends. Forever is a long time to acquire one or the other, unlikely both. I recall Neptune's Children dealt with this in an interesting manner. Also, immortal cyborgs and cryptocurrency.
 

indianroads

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Built in obsolescence is everywhere, medical, products we buy, etc. Quick answers to the previous questions:

The idea for the batteries came from an article on research on using nuclear waste for longer life. Obviously the EPA would have a cow over that, but hey, this is a Sci-fi future.

Why don't t hey know what they are? Earlier versions of themselves designed themselves to be like humans, and they succeeded a little to well. Their previous versions wanted them to be accepted and appreciated, which is a strong human motive. They have false memories they believe to be true.
 

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All of this raises another interesting thought; the emotional and psychological blue print of immortals. Fictional literature, even religious books like the Bible, depict an immortal being as either being kind and benevolent, like a parent, or selfishly evil and without empathy or compassion. God, as long as you're not on the receiving end of some good old fashioned Old Testament punishment, would be a good example of a kind and benevolent immortal, while the Old Ones of H. P. Lovecraft certainly fit the bill of evil without compassion or caring for lesser creatures.

I like what Star Trek NG did with the "Borg". While never being described as being immortal, and they certainly can be hurt with weapons, the fact they can replace over time the organic parts of their being with mechanical components implies their lifespan could be measured in centuries and beyond. The Borg were originally presented as being neither good nor evil. They had no religion or political beliefs, just a hive mentality, and their purpose was to accumulate the best of the technology of those they came into contact with. Of course, they didn't ask to borrow your tech or ask if you wanted to join their collective. Resistance is futile.

Personally, I prefer a culture or civilization that achieved immortality through technology as it makes more sense to me. Why would a deity bestow immortality on a people? That would put them on almost equal footing. While not a biologist, I don't believe the rules of biology would favor immortality. Your population would grow to the point of consuming all the natural resources and then.......shades of Soylent Green. This is a good thread.