What are the defining characteristics of MG to you?

Helix

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Just a bit of housekeeping.

If we're talking about the bookstore chain, it's Barnes & Noble. If we're talking about a time-travelling odd couple romp featuring the inventor of the bouncing bomb and the inventor of dynamite, then carry on.
 

Putputt

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It is not my intent to be rude, so I apologize to readers if this comment is deemed as such. At this point, I shall refrain from further comment of your posts directed at me, in this thread. No offense, these comments have crossed my threshold of courtesy. My concerns are not arguments or opinions; your words, not mine. My concerns pertain to product placement in bookstores. I think this is germane to the OP's query.

I really, really do not care if you reply to me.

People spouting nonsense on subjects which they know next to nothing about is one of my pet peeves. People spouting JUDGEMENTAL nonsense on subjects which they know next to nothing about (and yes, your little snide remark about "parents who care" was VERY judgy and offensive) basically makes me want to hipposlam the crap out of them. Ignore me if you will, but I'm going to keep calling out posts I find nonsensical.

To recap:
1. You don't read MG. Sorry, but "early HP books" followed by scanning the blurbs of MG doesn't mean you "read" MG. Again, as I said, that would be like someone who's read three GoT books saying they "read adult".
2. Um, actually, that is all. If you don't read the age category, you don't get to have an opinion on how it's sold, what is being sold, and who gets to read it. You just don't.

ETA: I see you're still digging your heels about book length...

Although I think some of this derailed the topic, I still believe content and book length are legitimate topics to the OP's query.

Book length are legitimate topics, but this:
434 pages is a bit much for kids.

And this:
If books go 300 pages for 80,000 words (approximate average), and 50,000 words is the upper limit of MG, I think 434 pages (for MG readers) is a bit excessive. This might be 120,000 words. Granted, Mull is a well-established writer, and he is afforded the extra length based on reputation, but is something this long not more geared toward YA (and allow other MG writers space for their books on bookshelves)?

Do you think the majority of MG readers will go for something 434 pages or 270-325? I know what my nephew would choose (he is 12). This is an opinion question. For me, I think 434 pages is daunting for young readers, in general.

Are just plain wrong. :)

Philip Pullman's NORTHERN LIGHTS/THE GOLDEN COMPASS: 416 pages, 112,815 words
Cornelia Funke's INKHEART:
146,809 words
ERAGON: 157,220 words
THE BOOK THIEF:
118,933 words
THE AMULET OF SAMARKAND: 462 pages, 140,910 words

All of them are best-sellers I can think of just off the top of my head. It's not a question of opinion. Objectively, and I'm saying this the nicest way I can, you're just wrong. MG books' word count range wildly depending on genre and setting. You'll have books as short as 40,000 words and books over 140,000 words, and both can appeal to many, many kids.
 
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lizmonster

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I'm struggling with the definition of "concerned parent" here.

I'm a concerned parent. I want my kid to read books about all kinds of people, written by all kinds of people. I want her to read everything that interests her, regardless of the age group it's aimed at. I want her to encounter work that makes her think, that stretches her limits.

I'm concerned about her getting enough to read that stretches and challenges her mind, which is remarkably elastic at this age. (She's 13 now, and past MG, but our parenting philosophy hasn't changed.)

I don't care about sex and violence in what she's reading. She self-polices that way. If she reads something that confuses her, she talks to us about it. I know this because we are "concerned parents" who are involved in her life.

I don't want a bookstore employee policing my kid's reading. If I go to them and say "Yeah, that Bridge to Terabithia thing freaked her out too much - do you have something similarly literary, but without all the horrible death stuff?" it'd be great if they knew enough about kidlit to throw some titles my way. But they absolutely should not be the ones deciding what gets shelved in MG.

And on that front - my understanding is all that comes from above, with the involvement of the publishers. A publisher will classify a book as MG if that kind of book has been selling as MG. B&N is going to shelve the book where it's most likely to be sold, and they're not going to be thinking about "concerned parents" while they're doing it.

TL;DR: Please don't use the term "concerned parent" when what is really meant is "someone with my exact standards about sex and violence, because as we know, my standards are Right and Proper." Police your own kids' reading. Leave mine alone.
 

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Enlightened

You're assuming your standards are the standards of all other parents; they aren't.
You're assuming that you know more about MG book length than people who write and edit them; you don't.
You need to read a lot more MG books. And I don't mean five or six; I mean 100 or so. It's a giant field, with a great deal of variation.

Finally, instead of telling someone you're not going to respond to them, just use the Ignore function. It's what it's for.
 
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AW Admin

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Totally different topic - TGC is considered middle-grade??


According to the publisher, yes.

As a general principle (not a rule) fantasy novels for any age are often "allowed" higher page count because of the necessity of world building and consequent back story complexity. I'm not sure that this is required, but it does seem to be a thing agents and publishers allow for.

Here are some useful discussions of the distinctions between YA and MG:

The Key Differences Between Middle Grade vs Young Adult — Marie Lamba, author and associate literary agent at The Jennifer De Chiara Literary Agency

Middle Grade and YA: Where to Draw the Line?

The reason to be aware of the distinctions between YA and MG are not only in terms of selling the book to a publisher, but, more importantly, they're about writing for your reader. Don't forget the reader when you're worrying about where a book will be shelved or what parents and teachers will think.
 
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edutton

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We do not censor or print warnings on books.

Parents who wish to censor their children's reading can do so -- by reading things first and trying to keep their kids out of the library. Good luck to them, I guess. It's not something I'd ever do.
We certainly curated our daughter's reading (and media consumption in general) when she was younger (in decreasing degrees up to age 12 or so), coupled with teaching her how to be a savvy media consumer. After that, she had the tools to figure out her boundaries on her own... and if not, well, stumbling across a Harold Robbins book at 11 didn't actually kill me (although the sex dungeon scene did give me a couple of nightmares, but then so did Old Yeller). :Shrug:
 

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We certainly curated our daughter's reading (and media consumption in general) when she was younger (in decreasing degrees up to age 12 or so), coupled with teaching her how to be a savvy media consumer. After that, she had the tools to figure out her boundaries on her own... and if not, well, stumbling across a Harold Robbins book at 11 didn't actually kill me (although the sex dungeon scene did give me a couple of nightmares, but then so did Old Yeller). :Shrug:

My parents were actively engaged with my reading habits; as the youngest child, they'd already read most of what I read, but by the time I was ten I was a voracious reader.

My older siblings were much more restrictive about when I could read particular books, but my brother in particular would bring me books to read. That said, he still hasn't forgiven me for skipping from Tolkien's Fellowship of the Ring to Return of the King when I was 12, because he didn't have a copy of The Two Towers, and I didn't want to wait.
 

cornflake

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We certainly curated our daughter's reading (and media consumption in general) when she was younger (in decreasing degrees up to age 12 or so), coupled with teaching her how to be a savvy media consumer. After that, she had the tools to figure out her boundaries on her own... and if not, well, stumbling across a Harold Robbins book at 11 didn't actually kill me (although the sex dungeon scene did give me a couple of nightmares, but then so did Old Yeller). :Shrug:

My parents obviously picked out appropriate books before I could (they did not, to my knowledge, read me Stephen King bedtime stories), read to me long past when I could actually read, and suggested books forever, but once I could roam the bookstore or library and choose books, I was allowed to pick whatever. Hence I was reading both Stephen King (which was actually recommended by a parent to begin with, heh, but then I chose different ones) at the same time as age-"appropriate" MG titles, because, same as today, it all has its own appeal.

Regardless of what I chose, the house, and relatives' houses, like yours, I'm guessing, was filled with 'inappropriate' stuff I picked up and read all the time, so ...
 

Putputt

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My parents obviously picked out appropriate books before I could (they did not, to my knowledge, read me Stephen King bedtime stories), read to me long past when I could actually read, and suggested books forever, but once I could roam the bookstore or library and choose books, I was allowed to pick whatever. Hence I was reading both Stephen King (which was actually recommended by a parent to begin with, heh, but then I chose different ones) at the same time as age-"appropriate" MG titles, because, same as today, it all has its own appeal.

Regardless of what I chose, the house, and relatives' houses, like yours, I'm guessing, was filled with 'inappropriate' stuff I picked up and read all the time, so ...

I’m guessing this happens to a lot of kids. My parents picked out my reading list until I was old enough to peruse the bookstore and library on my own, then it was a free for all. I picked up my first Stephen King (IT) at age 10. Settled down to read it, was amazed by the writing, got to the part where the little boy got his arm torn off, and went NOPENOPENOPE and shoved the book to the very back of the shelf and found my mom for a good cuddle. I remember telling her I found a “Satanic book”. :D I picked it up again when I was...13/14, I think, and enjoyed it a lot more then. I think most kids know their own limits and how much violence they’re comfortable with. If my parents had continued picking out books solely based on my age, I would’ve probably lost interest in reading.

Oh, and Lizmonster, yeah, I was surprised by TGC being shelved as MG too, because I found it so much more upsetting and disturbing than, say, The Hunger Games! Something about the description of the kids who’ve had their daemons removed...it really shocked me. More so than kids being forced to kill one another. Go figure.
 
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cornflake

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I was given Night Shift when I was, I think nine, maybe 10, then went to Tommyknockers, Needful Things, IT...none of it bothered me, I was fine with gore. The Exorcist bothered me; I think it was just in the house. Also, yes to the self-regulating, and I'd also go back and forth a lot. Like I'd read Stephen King and then read about Henry Huggins and Ribsey.
 
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edutton

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My parents obviously picked out appropriate books before I could (they did not, to my knowledge, read me Stephen King bedtime stories), read to me long past when I could actually read, and suggested books forever, but once I could roam the bookstore or library and choose books, I was allowed to pick whatever.
Largely true for us as well; we only said no a couple of times, when she picked up something with egregiously age-inappropriate levels of violence. (I helped her cultivate a love of horror, but there are limits...)

If my parents had continued picking out books solely based on my age, I would’ve probably lost interest in reading.
Absolutely agree. She was always a very advanced reader, so it was sometimes a challenge helping her find material that was deep enough to be interesting without being too R-rated, but we muddled through and she's a dedicated reader (and a writer!), so I think we did okay.
 
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EMaree

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I have fond memories of picking up THE AMBER SPYGLASS at my primary school (AmE: elementary school) Scholastic Book Fair, and absolutely loving it. The next year, just before I moved up to the Big School, they had the whole trilogy bundled up in a gorgeous hardback that I still own... and I finally got to read the other two books leading up to that beautiful finale.

They were good times.

Regarding book length... I was a voracious reader, and I was also the child of a financially struggling family. Getting to buy a book was a rare treat, and I would always make the effort to go for the biggest fantasy book I could find to make the best use of my parents money. For shorter books, I'd wait until the library had them or I could find a boxset deal.

These giant, beloved tomes also doubled as handy clubbing weapons to fend off any adults who tried to tell me the book was above my reading level. Thankfully the adults around me were kind and trusting, and they treated me like someone who could make my own smart choices.

I'll never stop being grateful for that and how it shaped me for the better.
 
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mccardey

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I'm so jealous of you lot. When I was a tot, reading was something I used to get punished for - it was lazy and it wasn't helping out - and re-reading was viewed as suspicious: If you've read it once, you don't need to read it again, so what are you really doing?

OTOH, I did become an incredibly quick reader.
 

cornflake

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I'm so jealous of you lot. When I was a tot, reading was something I used to get punished for - it was lazy and it wasn't helping out - and re-reading was viewed as suspicious: If you've read it once, you don't need to read it again, so what are you really doing?

OTOH, I did become an incredibly quick reader.

Aww, you'd think there'd be more support for a reading pup!

Yeah, I am quite grateful that reading and books were so valued. The bookstore was the big treat trip in my house, like 'if you're good, we can stop at the bookstore,' though we went regardless, heh.

Also boo on the rereading suspicion, that's just weird; everyone had books they reread over and over and wanted everyone else to read.

*lending the pup a well-worn copy of the Poky Puppy -- it's really good
 

neandermagnon

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434 pages is a bit much for kids.

My 8 yr old would beg to differ... she's currently reading the 7th Harry Potter book, which is over 600 pages long.

I agree that there definitely is and should be a market for older kids' books with shorter word counts and simpler vocabulary, because kids' ability in reading varies massively and kids who find reading harder should never ever be stuck with just reading books for little kids. That would kill any enthusiasm for reading completely dead. But there are plenty of kids who will happily read books that are hundreds of pages long full of difficult words. I've met people who read the whole of the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings at age 6 or 7.

House of Secrets (Fry Boy, buyer review on Amazon): "First, pretty violent for a younger crowd that's less than thirteen, I'd say. Two characters get stabbed, one in the chest, one in the back. Another character gets an arrow in his eye, then pulls out the arrow with his eye attached to it. Another character is known for vivisecting humans."

I'd say this is a bit much for MG, no?

Not really. My 11 yr old had to do a school project on Frankenstein by Mary Shelley earlier this year (she's in year 7). The teacher chose the book. My daughter also read the Hunger Games when she was 10.

Also, I remember learning about King Harold dying from being shot in the eye by an arrow at the Battle of Hastings when I was about 8 yrs old or so. Apparently it's just a legend that this is how he died, but the point is that people getting shot in the eye by an arrow isn't considered "too much" for teaching kids about history. The Horrible Histories series (which is now also a CBBC TV series) is jam packed full of stuff like this. Basically, horrible ways people have lived and died (and been tortured, executed etc) in just about every era of history and prehistory.

Also, seeing as it's Easter weekend it's worth a mention that kids learn how Jesus was tortured and executed (such a horrific method of execution too) in schools and churches from a young age. And some churches have very realistic statues of Jesus being executed. Granted that the story has a happy ending, but kids still hear the gory details like nails being hammered through his hands.

Voice is a good pint to keep it to MG instead of YA. Maybe a "tweens" section should be added, for those topics introducing words like vivisection. I would think I am not alone in not wanting my child to read a word, no matter how it is presented to an MGer, I'd hate to have to explain to him/her. House of Secrets has no warning on the cover (at the very least, harsh content), and the cover art looks tame enough. It's difficult for parents to know if the book, without reading reviews and it being in MG sections of bookstores, has this sort of content.

In all honesty, I'd rather my kids encountered difficult topics in books then came and asked me, so I can discuss it with them openly. When my older daughter read the Hetty Feather series by Jacqueline Wilson, she asked me why there were foundlings and why people would abandon their babies. I explained about the attitudes towards unmarried women at the time it was set (Victorian era) and how women who had babies outside of marriage would've been forced to hide the pregnancy and give up the baby - most likely abandon the baby at a hospital. This led to further questions about how you accidentally become pregnant, which I gave an honest answer to.

I'm glad of the chance for books to open up important discussions like these. My daughter now has a better understanding of a huge range of topics as a result of conversations that were started by stuff she read in books.
 
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maghranimal

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Many kids, including myself, grew up reading Michael Crichton and Stephen King. I remember asking my dad what a bordello was when I was around 11-12. I laugh thinking about it now.

Genres within the MG umbrella vary just like any other category. SF/F are of course going to have looser standards. MG ranges from 20,000 words all the way up to 250,000 (Order of the Phoenix). Plus, The Girl Who Drank the Moon won the Newbery award last year and it had 388 pages.
 

cornflake

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Many kids, including myself, grew up reading Michael Crichton and Stephen King. I remember asking my dad what a bordello was when I was around 11-12. I laugh thinking about it now.

Genres within the MG umbrella vary just like any other category. SF/F are of course going to have looser standards. MG ranges from 20,000 words all the way up to 250,000 (Order of the Phoenix). Plus, The Girl Who Drank the Moon won the Newbery award last year and it had 388 pages.

Order of the Phoenix is YA, not MG.
 

Debbie V

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As a parent, I just say know your kid. My son read HP before second grade. We stopped him from reading the 4th book. But we were very clear about when he could read it. I knew that book would give him nightmares and I didn't want to deal with getting up with him at whatever hour. The thing is, you can't unread the part that made you shove the book in the back of the shelves. He reread the first three before reading book four and rereads the whole series periodically. He's 13 and capable of reading a book a day. Currently he has The Once and Future King because we haven't made it to the library for a couple of weeks and it was on my shelves. I don't police his reading anymore, but he doesn't wake me for nightmares if he has them either.
 

GeneBWell

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Character age, themes and voice would be my main three. I mean I couldn't point to anything specifically and say 'here is a comprehensive list of MG themes' or 'this right here is THE MG voice' but I can still sense fairly easily when a voice or theme doesn't seem to fit MG.

But I'd argue that voice may be the most important aspect. You can get away with a lot of things, including mature themes and even grisly horror, if you write in a voice that can connect with the audience. A lot of people get so caught up on 'is this theme appropriate for an MG novel?' or 'can I have this kind of content in an MG novel?' when the answer to these and similar questions is always: 'depends on how you write it'. Finding a great MG voice to write in is, I think, the biggest step you can take toward being an MG author.
 

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When you're writing for MG (8-12) you have to ask yourself what you would want your own MG child to read. Is your child more like an 8 or a 12? Big difference. Googling school summer reading lists is a good guide. MG teachers and school librarians have a lot of input.
 

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Sometimes I find writing and publishing MG titles as writing for the parents, because they're going to be the ones recommending and buying the books for their children. It's an odd way of looking at it. But also you have to know their culture. There's a lot of general guidelines on what makes MG "MG," but the best thing you can do is read what is selling and take notes on it. I think more books are coming out of the sandbox especially with progressive cultures. So, see what is selling in your culture before adhering to a list of characteristics.
 
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