What are the defining characteristics of MG to you?

13 isn't MG, it's the nether-region between MG and YA. You can have a series that starts out with younger kids who age into 13 year olds, but you don't start MG series at that age.

12 is the "upper" MG range, and the reason many authors choose 11 year old protags.

The main difference between MG and a young-aged adult protag is going to be the lens through which you frame your story. What's the voice like? Is it a child's voice (MG) or is it an older, nostalgic voice (adult). Is the story framed around the kids' adventure (MG) or more around the internal struggles and outside factors acting on the kids (adult)?

You really can't mistake a MG book written for that market and audience with an adult book written for that market and audience. There's always room for opinion and interpretation, but mostly it's a set of standard inclusions.

One example is House of Secrets (Columbus and Vizzini, 2014). Page count is way high (for MG). If you read the user reviews on Amazon, it involves vivisection and things that should not be in MG, although marketed for "tweens." I went to my local Barnes & Nobel yesterday, and the book was in MG. Harry Potter started in MG then progressed to YA. I think there is a blurring involved. I picked up, at the bookstore, a copy of Brandon Mull's first Five Kingdom's books (434 pages). This series was in MG at the bookstore. I think this might be a bit much for young kids.

I don't think I trust the folks at Barnes & Nobel, where books are placed, until I check out user reviews on Amazon. If I was a parent, I would not want my child reading about vivisection. When I was a kid, I was into movies, music, and TV. We had loads of great selections. When I had to free select books to read at school, I chose poetry and nonfiction titles.

Enlightened said:

One example is House of Secrets (Columbus and Vizzini, 2014). Page count is way high (for MG). If you read the user reviews on Amazon, it involves vivisection and things that should not be in MG, although marketed for "tweens." I went to my local Barnes & Nobel yesterday, and the book was in MG. Harry Potter started in MG then progressed to YA. I think there is a blurring involved. I picked up, at the bookstore, a copy of Brandon Mull's first Five Kingdom's books (434 pages). This series was in MG at the bookstore. I think this might be a bit much for young kids.

I don't think I trust the folks at Barnes & Nobel, where books are placed, until I check out user reviews on Amazon. If I was a parent, I would not want my child reading about vivisection. When I was a kid, I was into movies, music, and TV. We had loads of great selections. When I had to free select books to read at school, I chose poetry and nonfiction titles.

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What about the Mull is a bit much for kids?

As for the vivisection, I've no idea the specifics or how it's handled but there's nothing I'd say is off limits just on the basis of topic alone for MG.

434 pages is a bit much for kids.

House of Secrets (Fry Boy, buyer review on Amazon): "First, pretty violent for a younger crowd that's less than thirteen, I'd say. Two characters get stabbed, one in the chest, one in the back. Another character gets an arrow in his eye, then pulls out the arrow with his eye attached to it. Another character is known for vivisecting humans."

I'd say this is a bit much for MG, no?

Enlightened said:

434 pages is a bit much for kids.

I completely disagree here. Could not disagree more. Why? An engaging book is an engaging book. Kids read LotR. Kids read Harry Potter by the millions. If the wc is justified, the wc is immaterial, imo.

House of Secrets (Fry Boy, buyer review on Amazon): "First, pretty violent for a younger crowd that's less than thirteen, I'd say. Two characters get stabbed, one in the chest, one in the back. Another character gets an arrow in his eye, then pulls out the arrow with his eye attached to it. Another character is known for vivisecting humans."

I'd say this is a bit much for MG, no?

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Again, I have no idea how it's handled or written or anything else, but see above -- no. No topic is off-limits in MG, imo, depending how it's handled.

To me, the defining characteristics are 1. The age of the protagonist (and projected audience), and the voice of the narrative.

The age of a MG protagonist is, I believe, in the 8-12 range, with a concentration in the 10-12, because younger kids tend to want to read about protagonists their age or older. This would be older elementary school through 7th grade, maybe (most kids turn 13 sometime during seventh grade). There is also a sort of mid-grade "voice" that agents and publishers talk about. It's hard to define, but it's critical. Reading a lot of currently popular MG fiction is probably the best way to get a feel for it. And listen to kids in that age group talk to each other. Or, if you kept a diary when you were 11-12 and still have it in a box somewhere, that might give you a sense for how kids that age talk and think.

http://writerunboxed.com/2016/11/11/getting-middle-grade-voice-right/

http://www.writersdigest.com/online-editor/the-key-differences-between-middle-grade-vs-young-adult

If I was a teacher, or librarian, charged to read House of Secrets to MGers, I'd definitely pass. We certainly have different tolerances.

If books go 300 pages for 80,000 words (approximate average), and 50,000 words is the upper limit of MG, I think 434 pages (for MG readers) is a bit excessive. This might be 120,000 words. Granted, Mull is a well-established writer, and he is afforded the extra length based on reputation, but is something this long not more geared toward YA (and allow other MG writers space for their books on bookshelves)?

Do you think the majority of MG readers will go for something 434 pages or 270-325? I know what my nephew would choose (he is 12). This is an opinion question. For me, I think 434 pages is daunting for young readers, in general.

Anytime someone tells me "X" doesn't belong in MG, I remind them that The Graveyard Book, solidly MG, starts off with a baby crawling through his parents' blood to escape a bloody murder and take refuge in a cemetery. That, and Coraline is the illustrated account of a monstrous Other-mother who wants to yank a girl's eyeballs out of her head and replace them with buttons.

Or, for apropos to vivisection, the removal and consumption of a deer's organs that the evil queen thinks belong to her step-daughter Snow White.

Kids books get dark.

Enlightened said:

If I was a teacher, or librarian, charged to read House of Secrets to MGers, I'd definitely pass. We certainly have different tolerances.

If books go 300 pages for 80,000 words (approximate average), and 50,000 words is the upper limit of MG, I think 434 pages (for MG readers) is a bit excessive. This might be 120,000 words. Granted, Mull is a well-established writer, and he is afforded the extra length based on reputation, but is something this long not more geared toward YA (and allow other MG writers space for their books on bookshelves)?

Do you think the majority of MG readers will go for something 434 pages or 270-325? I know what my nephew would choose (he is 12). This is an opinion question. For me, I think 434 pages is daunting for young readers, in general.

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I haven't read it, so I've no idea what's in it, so I've no idea if I'd pass or not.

I think MG readers will go for something that interests them, same as adult readers. Sure, reluctant readers will gravitate toward the slimmer volumes, but that too is true for adults. There are people on the other end of the spectrum, kids and adults alike, who don't like to pick up books that aren't doorstoppers, because they end too soon.

If it's written with an MG-aged protag, and MG voice and general sensibility, then length doesn't move it to YA in any way, no, any more than a long YA is suddenly an adult book, or a short adult book is MG.

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Cyia said:

Anytime someone tells me "X" doesn't belong in MG, I remind them that The Graveyard Book, solidly MG, starts off with a baby crawling through his parents' blood to escape a bloody murder and take refuge in a cemetery. That, and Coraline is the illustrated account of a monstrous Other-mother who wants to yank a girl's eyeballs out of her head and replace them with buttons.

Or, for apropos to vivisection, the removal and consumption of a deer's organs that the evil queen thinks belong to her step-daughter Snow White.

Kids books get dark.

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Good point.

Hansel. Gretel. Witch. Oven.

cornflake said:

I haven't read it, so I've no idea what's in it, so I've no idea if I'd pass or not.

I think MG readers will go for something that interests them, same as adult readers. Sure, reluctant readers will gravitate toward the slimmer volumes, but that too is true for adults. There are people on the other end of the spectrum, kids and adults alike, who don't like to pick up books that aren't doorstoppers, because they end too soon.

If it's written with an MG-aged protag, and MG voice and general sensibility, then length doesn't move it to YA in any way, no, any more than a long YA is suddenly an adult book, or a short adult book is MG.

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Good point.

Hansel. Gretel. Witch. Oven.

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Voice is a good pint to keep it to MG instead of YA. Maybe a "tweens" section should be added, for those topics introducing words like vivisection. I would think I am not alone in not wanting my child to read a word, no matter how it is presented to an MGer, I'd hate to have to explain to him/her. House of Secrets has no warning on the cover (at the very least, harsh content), and the cover art looks tame enough. It's difficult for parents to know if the book, without reading reviews and it being in MG sections of bookstores, has this sort of content.

Cyia said:

Anytime someone tells me "X" doesn't belong in MG, I remind them that The Graveyard Book, solidly MG, starts off with a baby crawling through his parents' blood to escape a bloody murder and take refuge in a cemetery. That, and Coraline is the illustrated account of a monstrous Other-mother who wants to yank a girl's eyeballs out of her head and replace them with buttons.

Or, for apropos to vivisection, the removal and consumption of a deer's organs that the evil queen thinks belong to her step-daughter Snow White.

Kids books get dark.

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Matter of opinion. Presentation is certainly a factor. Implication may be too much for some parents of MGers.

Enlightened said:

Voice is a good pint to keep it to MG instead of YA. Maybe a "tweens" section should be added, for those topics introducing words like vivisection. I would think I am not alone in not wanting my child to read a word, no matter how it is presented to an MGer, I'd hate to have to explain to him/her. House of Secrets has no warning on the cover (at the very least, harsh content), and the cover art looks tame enough. It's difficult for parents to know if the book, without reading reviews and it being in MG sections of bookstores, has this sort of content.

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There isn't anything I wouldn't explain to someone old enough to pick out and read his or her own books. Besides, a kid old enough to be reading that would likely already know such things exist. I studied history in school, and visited museums literally from my first week of life on.

Enlightened said:

Matter of opinion. Presentation is certainly a factor. Implication may be too much for some parents of MGers.

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We do not censor or print warnings on books.

Parents who wish to censor their children's reading can do so -- by reading things first and trying to keep their kids out of the library. Good luck to them, I guess. It's not something I'd ever do.

Enlightened said:

434 pages is a bit much for kids.

House of Secrets (Fry Boy, buyer review on Amazon): "First, pretty violent for a younger crowd that's less than thirteen, I'd say. Two characters get stabbed, one in the chest, one in the back. Another character gets an arrow in his eye, then pulls out the arrow with his eye attached to it. Another character is known for vivisecting humans."

I'd say this is a bit much for MG, no?

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Without intending any offense, this feels like a very 'adult' view of middle grade fiction that middle-grade-aged-me would have found silly.

One of the writers I loved back at that age was Darren Shan, whose books are ALL about grisly deaths. He was a huge bestseller at the time, and still is today, and his books are pretty much all death and gore. [Note: these books are sometimes marketed as lower YA, and it's possible I was reading up a bit, but I see this shelved as MG fairly often and would say it has an MG voice.]

Also? A Series of Unfortunate Events.

Also? The Warriors series about sentient animals dying in horrible and graphic ways.

A lot of MG-aged kids are also 'reading up' into The Hunger Games series, which is definitely YA but is also miles and miles more violent than the book you quoted... and most parents don't bat an eyelid at their kids reading it.

Middle grade readers LOVE violence. It's usually softened in ways to make it more bearable to adults (Darren Shan's characters are usually tearing apart humanoid monsters, always black or green blood and never red; The Warriors series uses animals instead of human characters) but it's still super gruesome. And kids love it!

Violence, I've found, tends to become more disturbing as you get older and add weight, impact, and a sense of loss around it. Violence when you're a kid is just fun and excitement. We joke about lil' kids being unrepentant psychopaths, but truly, when you're young and your brain isn't fully developed yet you don't tend to dig deep into the depth and meaning of deaths in books.

Now that you mention, E -- I loved slasher films when I was like 10 -14 or so. I still like them, they're fun, but I don't go after them like I did. I was very into them, the franchises (Jaws, Jason, Halloween, Scream, Nightmare, etc.) and the weird indies. My dad took me to a midnight showing of a slasher pic for my 12th b'day.

Oh! Cornflake, that brought back so many memories! Around that same age I was super into retro horror movies: the original Dawn of the Dead was my absolute favourite, I watched it over and over alongside all of Romero's works. And Carrie! Carrie was just so good.

Around the time I hit puberty certain 'realistic' horror movies became difficult to bear... I remember finding the SCREAM movies unbearable, consciously because the death was more real than the monster-movies I was used to, but probably unconsciously because the sexual humour was just too much to deal with when going through the hormone bombardment of teenage school years. But before that point I was totally loving horror movies, and horror games like Resident Evil, Silent Hill (still a favourite), and Eternal Darkness.

I think it's worth noting that a lot of MG students find out about all kinds of things on the internet before adults even start wondering if these are things they should know about.

But this question of difficult topics in MG is an interesting one. How much is too much? What do we mean by 'presentation'? How would a scene in which an entire village is being murdered be covered in MG versus YA for example?

In Wild Things by Betsy Bird, there's a passage about how the overlying theme in MG is fitting in, learning your place and role in the world, whereas YA is more concerned with how one stands out. Make of that what you will, somebody else said it, not me.

EMaree said:

Oh! Cornflake, that brought back so many memories! Around that same age I was super into retro horror movies: the original Dawn of the Dead was my absolute favourite, I watched it over and over alongside all of Romero's works. And Carrie! Carrie was just so good.

Around the time I hit puberty certain 'realistic' horror movies became difficult to bear... I remember finding the SCREAM movies unbearable, consciously because the death was more real than the monster-movies I was used to, but probably unconsciously because the sexual humour was just too much to deal with when going through the hormone bombardment of teenage school years. But before that point I was totally loving horror movies, and horror games like Resident Evil, Silent Hill (still a favourite), and Eternal Darkness.

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OMG yesss! My dad also introduced me to the original Dawn of the Dead, which I liked, but I liked the silly updatey ones from the '80s more (braaaaiiiinnns!) I'm still a sucker for zombies. Vampires don't really do anything for me, but zombies, I'm there.

Scream is still a fave of mine, The in-jokes referencing all the other franchises are so clever. I didn't have a switch where it bothered me, but I can see what you mean.

EMaree said:

Without intending any offense, this feels like a very 'adult' view of middle grade fiction that middle-grade-aged-me would have found silly.

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Tolerance, and it's impossible to generalize for the masses. I'll give you an example of how reading these books might be bad for kids....

Johnny reads one of these MG books (or more) with violence and disturbing imagery. He tells his best friends. Days later, his best friends tell him they are not allowed to be friends. Those kids told their parents that Johnny's mom lets him read these books, and they want them. An influential parent of the other kids gets the ball rolling with the other parents, and Johnny is left without friends. Will this happen? Likely not. Can this happen? You bet.

Let's hope parents, who care, take time to investigate what their children are reading (from the MG section). I'm surprised at the openness, from posters, to this material in MG sections of bookstores (and libraries). Don't get me wrong, I was allowed to watch the slasher films of the 80s. I know I saw stuff my folks would not want me to see, as a kid, if they knew what I was renting (with their permission) at video rental stores. I had no problem watching those films, and I still enjoy them come Halloween. Regardless, MGer kids don't always make the best decisions. Parental supervision should not be exempt for reading material, for parents who are concerned with such content.

Enlightened said:

Tolerance, and it's impossible to generalize for the masses. I'll give you an example of how reading these books might be bad for kids....

Johnny reads one of these MG books (or more) with violence and disturbing imagery. He tells his best friends. Days later, his best friends tell him they are not allowed to be friends. Those kids told their parents that Johnny's mom lets him read these books, and they want them. An influential parent of the other kids gets the ball rolling with the other parents, and Johnny is left without friends. Will this happen? Likely not. Can this happen? You bet.

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Johnny Dodged A Bullet.

(No you can't have the title. It's my next MG best-seller)

mccardey said:

Johnny Dodged A Bullet.

(No you can't have the title. It's my next MG best-seller)

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The Kid has had friends from time to time who are told under no uncertain terms that they are not to watch any TV at our house. We keep the TV off while they're here. Nobody so far has been told they're not allowed to be friends with The Kid. I also suspect that suggesting she censor her reading because somebody else's parent might be upset would make her laugh for a long, long time.

My ex's kids had friends who weren't allowed to celebrate Halloween, and couldn't go over to the houses of kids who went to different churches. They managed to stay friends all the same.

That a child could lose all their friends because they read something other parents found objectionable strikes me as a wildly unlikely scenario. And to suggest that an author censor their own work just in case one of these parents someday decided to ostracize a kid who read it seems...kind of out of left field to me.

lizmonster said:

That a child could lose all their friends because they read something other parents found objectionable strikes me as a wildly unlikely scenario. And to suggest that an author censor their own work just in case one of these parents someday decided to ostracize a kid who read it seems...kind of out of left field to me.

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Zackly. And if Johnny's at a school where "influential parents" can agree to a Mean Parent suggestion that one particular child is ostracised from his class, then I'd think what he reads is far less of a problem than the society he's forced to be part of. Hopefully his parents will find somewhere better...

Enlightened said:

434 pages is a bit much for kids.

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Frances Hardinge's novels are mostly MG (though she does have a strong adult following as well) and often come in over 100,000 words - for example Cuckoo Song, which is definitely MG, with an eleven-year-old protagonist.