• Basic Writing questions is not a crit forum. All crits belong in Share Your Work

Is it possible to start a story too late?

Lielac

Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 9, 2017
Messages
53
Reaction score
4
Location
Ontario, Canada
I've read plenty of advice about the pitfalls of starting a story too long before the action starts, but not so much about whether it's a bad idea to drop the reader right at the important bit.

For example, my current project is a portal fantasy, and the important part is when the protagonist and her friend find the portal into the other world. But the portal fantasies I've read don't go straight to "bang, portal into another world, hop through", there's some idea of the normal life the MC is leaving behind. To my mind the important part in those cases is still the portal to another world, and yet the glimpse of the normal life isn't boring, it's necessary somehow.

The Hunger Games didn't start with the Reaping; it started the morning before. Harry Potter didn't start with "you're a wizard, Harry"; it started on Dudley's birthday. So what's the "right" amount of normal life to showcase before the life-changing event?
 

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
16,768
Reaction score
4,663
Location
Scotland
If the 'normal life' intro is interesting, leads somewhere, and draws the reader in and on, wanting to know what happens next, it works and I'm not sure there is a 'right' amount.

It's all in the execution. I know, that sounds pretty bland, but it seems to be the answer.

My portal fantasy has precious little about the life of the protagonists outside the portal. Does it work? I'll find out in due course.

Starting too late runs the risk of the reader either not being able to follow what's happening, or not being familiar enough with the character(s) to care about what's happening to them.

Good luck.
 
Last edited:

Maggie Maxwell

Making Einstein cry since 1994
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 21, 2013
Messages
11,736
Reaction score
10,535
Location
In my head
Website
thewanderingquille.blogspot.com
Just make sure that the "normal" life has conflict. Harry Potter had him being abused by his family. Hunger Games had Katniss breaking the laws to hunt before the Reaping. The "normal life" portion needs to show 1) a need/desire to escape or 2) a need to come back. Harry needed the escape that his new life granted him. Katniss needed to come back to make sure her family was cared for. The same can apply to Alice and the Pevensie children and any other portal fantasy. That's where your story begins.
 

Barbara R.

Old Hand in the Biz
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 4, 2009
Messages
1,963
Reaction score
242
Location
New York
Website
www.barbararogan.com
I've read plenty of advice about the pitfalls of starting a story too long before the action starts, but not so much about whether it's a bad idea to drop the reader right at the important bit.

For example, my current project is a portal fantasy, and the important part is when the protagonist and her friend find the portal into the other world. But the portal fantasies I've read don't go straight to "bang, portal into another world, hop through", there's some idea of the normal life the MC is leaving behind. To my mind the important part in those cases is still the portal to another world, and yet the glimpse of the normal life isn't boring, it's necessary somehow.

The Hunger Games didn't start with the Reaping; it started the morning before. Harry Potter didn't start with "you're a wizard, Harry"; it started on Dudley's birthday. So what's the "right" amount of normal life to showcase before the life-changing event?

Readers can't invest emotionally in a story until it feels real to them, which is why setting is such an important part of the picture. Especially in a fantasy novel, it's important to establish that sense of solid reality BEFORE you send Alice down the rabbit hole.

Readers will accept whatever crazy world you dream up as "normal" in the context of your story. If you don't show the real world before showing the fantasy world, readers won't feel the difference or the wonder that should attend.
 

BethS

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
11,708
Reaction score
1,763
So what's the "right" amount of normal life to showcase before the life-changing event?

I think the question to ask is: what is the cost of leaving the normal world and the cost of returning/not returning to the normal world? Because there needs to be one; otherwise there's no point in having a portal.

Those who travel through portals are leaving something behind. It may be home-sweet-home or it may be hell-on-earth, but either way, what the character is abandoning (and whether or not it's by choice) is going to have a psychological impact on him or her, and will influence the ultimate outcome of the story.

So if you can answer that, then you'll probably know how much of the normal world (and the character's relationships within that world) you need to show before the portal journey.
 

Hopefully WLCT

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 5, 2014
Messages
258
Reaction score
17
Location
near Boston
Whatever you start your story with, you must grab your reader. I think the most important tidbit of information I've learned on this site is, " make your reader want to turn the page".
 

cbenoi1

Banned
Joined
Dec 30, 2008
Messages
5,038
Reaction score
977
Location
Canada
Just make sure that the "normal" life has conflict. Harry Potter had him being abused by his family. Hunger Games had Katniss breaking the laws to hunt before the Reaping. The "normal life" portion needs to show 1) a need/desire to escape or 2) a need to come back. Harry needed the escape that his new life granted him. Katniss needed to come back to make sure her family was cared for. The same can apply to Alice and the Pevensie children and any other portal fantasy. That's where your story begins.
This.

Fantasies that have a transition (a portal or otherwise) often open up on the curse that lies in the Fantasy World. Then the second scene/chapter is the Ordinary World in which the Heroine is missing something that can only be fulfilled in the Fantasy World. The first step can be skipped. The second not.


The Hunger Games didn't start with the Reaping; it started the morning before.
It started with a discussion between a TV host and the Hunger Games organizer (in the HD version I saw). Then there is a transition to Disctrict 12. The sharp difference. The two worlds. One sereine but deadly, the other harsh but somewhat secure. That's the curse.


Harry Potter didn't start with "you're a wizard, Harry"; it started on Dudley's birthday.
It started with Dumbledore, a powerful wizard in the Fantasy World, taking the baby to the mother's sister, a mogul from the Ordinary World. The Hero stuck in-between the two worlds, one harsh but secure, then other uncertain and unfamiliar. Another curse.

I would not be too worried about taking the time to set up the Heroine and the transition properly. Fantasies have the most emphasis on those two elements than any other genre.

-cb
 
Last edited:

indianroads

Wherever I go, there I am.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 4, 2017
Messages
2,372
Reaction score
230
Location
Colorado
Website
indianroads.net
I think the question to ask is: what is the cost of leaving the normal world and the cost of returning/not returning to the normal world? Because there needs to be one; otherwise there's no point in having a portal.

Those who travel through portals are leaving something behind. It may be home-sweet-home or it may be hell-on-earth, but either way, what the character is abandoning (and whether or not it's by choice) is going to have a psychological impact on him or her, and will influence the ultimate outcome of the story.

So if you can answer that, then you'll probably know how much of the normal world (and the character's relationships within that world) you need to show before the portal journey.

As you say - a person leaves something behind when they enter the portal for the first time, and when they return home they also leave something behind. It's the typical epic journey scenario. It's the character arc that makes this story interesting, upon returning their perspective is changed.

Regarding where to start; the typical advice is to 'start in the middle', because you need to grab the reader and intrigue them enough that they'll read further. In my WIP, I start the story in the head of another character (not my MC), and something happens that foreshadows coming events. In the following chapters I'm in the MC's head and show a glimpse of his normal life - so we can see and appreciate what he's about to lose. The MC doesn't really grasp the entirety of what's going on until about half way through the book - up until that time the reader knows more than the MC does.

In my previous books, I started with a brief snippet of the MC's life, then jumped right into the motivating event.

IMO, the initial few pages have to hook the reader, otherwise they'll set your work aside and read something else.
 

Toothpaste

THE RECKLESS RESCUE is out now!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 18, 2006
Messages
8,745
Reaction score
3,096
Location
Toronto, Canada
Website
www.adriennekress.com
Yes. Oh man yes. In fact I find that with new writers specifically of middle grade fiction almost every time I'm asked to look at an opening, it's too fast and too late in the story. I think this is because for years writers have had it grilled into them to start with a bang, to start in the middle of something, get the story going. And it's sound advice in a way. But it's not actually about starting so late into a story. What it's actually all about is what everyone else here has been saying: being compelling. Being compelling does not mean not grounding the reader (grounding is why Hunger Games and Harry Potter start when they do, a reaping doesn't mean much if we don't care about the people being . . . reaped . . . and discovering you're a wizard isn't that special unless we understand how mundane/terrible one's life was before the discovery). It just means whatever you write and wherever you start needs to capture the reader from page one.
 
Last edited:

BethS

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
11,708
Reaction score
1,763
Re starting a story in media res...

That can lead to as many problems as starting the story too early. IMO and generally speaking (there will always be exceptions), it's best to 1) start the story at or near a moment of change, when the character's personal world shifts from status quo to a state of flux; 2) give the character a problem that needs solving (but can't be solved, at least right away); and 3) make it Not Boring.
 

Lielac

Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 9, 2017
Messages
53
Reaction score
4
Location
Ontario, Canada
Thank you all for your thoughts on this; they've been helpful.

Bufty: You gave me a good reminder to me that I need to write the story first and figure out if it works later. Does it work? I can't find out without having written it.

Maggie Maxwell: I like your point about making sure there's conflict. I especially like the need to escape/need to return; it's set off a few thoughts about my MCs. And you've reminded me that Alice in Wonderland actually gets to the portal part of the fantasy pretty quickly.

Barbara R.: Your point about showing the normal world so it can contrast with the fantasy world is definitely something I'll think about.

BethS: That's a good point about what the MCs are leaving behind. It's different for both of them, I know that much, but I only have an idea for one of them of what they're leaving and why they would.

cbenoi1: "[...]the Heroine is missing something that can only be fulfilled in the Fantasy World." I like this, I like this a lot. I'll think about it some, because again it's obvious for one of my MCs what they'll get from the adventure, but not so much the other. (And you're right that Harry Potter had that prologue, which also managed to be captivating...)

indianroads: Starting in the middle is what I've heard, but I'm worried about confusing or alienating the reader by starting too deep in the middle.

Toothpaste: Thank you. Do you think it's better in an initial draft to start too early? I'm leaning yes, because then one can cut the first however many scenes or chapters, but if one starts too late one has to go in and actually write the missing scenes.

BethS again: Yeah, I'm worried about starting in medias res confusing people and putting them off. At or near a moment of change works, difficult problem that needs solving works, making it not boring is what keeps me up at night but I'm sure I'll manage.
 

CAQuinn

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 19, 2018
Messages
72
Reaction score
2
Location
Accra, Ghana
This. I would not be too worried about taking the time to set up the Heroine and the transition properly. Fantasies have the most emphasis on those two elements than any other genre.

-cb

hi there cb its christoph good point made here, and thanks also for the link you gave me on the other post i do appreciate it and will check it out.

the thing about curses, is they're usually exciting stuff and make great 'inciting incidents' to have at the start of a book/movie.

what i don't like about more and more movies and books today is what i think of as a cheat on the inciting incident. they just pick some very exciting part of the movie as a flashforward. like the torture scene in MI III, or the claymore explosion in swordfish.
 

Laer Carroll

Aerospace engineer turned writer
Super Member
Registered
Temp Ban
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
2,481
Reaction score
271
Location
Los Angeles
Website
LaerCarroll.com
I'm of the early-middle school generally. Two of my books start after the inciting incident, one in the middle of the incident, and one somewhat earlier in an almost tranquil part of a character's life but close to the incident. Yet I've enjoyed books that have a long lead up to the trigger events.

I'm a systems engineer so I like very general perspectives. But I'm also leery of ANY rules that have no room for exceptions. Start early, start in the middle, start late - any of those can work. Each has pros and cons. Seems to me the previous posters did a good job of talking about the pros & cons of starting late.
 
Last edited:

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
23,124
Reaction score
10,886
Location
Where faults collide
Website
doggedlywriting.blogspot.com
Readers will accept whatever crazy world you dream up as "normal" in the context of your story. If you don't show the real world before showing the fantasy world, readers won't feel the difference or the wonder that should attend.

I'm not sure this is always true, or fantasies set in completely secondary worlds with no connection to our own wouldn't work. Sometimes a fair amount of story before the transportation into another world is necessary, because it shows the reader something of the stakes, or it gives the reader an idea what kind of person the protagonist is in our terms too. In Coraline, for instance, we have to see something of the protagonist's loneliness and her relationship with her real parents to understand why the fake ones are so appealing, at least initially. In The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, the back and forth before the four kids all end up in Narnia at the same time is important because we need to see their relationship with each other and how that affects their treatment of Lucy, and how it drives Edmund's initial defection. With Alice, the White Rabbit shows up a paragraph or two in, if I remember correctly. But the opening scene established that Alice was pretty bored.

In stories that are firmly set in our world, or in fantasy worlds with no portal, the opening scene may do something similar. It establishes stakes and motivation for the protagonist prior to the event that disrupts their normality. Sometimes it can happen a few pages (or even less) in, but other times it may take a chapter or more. I think most readers want some kind of tension and conflict before, though.
 

Barbara R.

Old Hand in the Biz
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 4, 2009
Messages
1,963
Reaction score
242
Location
New York
Website
www.barbararogan.com
I'm not sure this is always true, or fantasies set in completely secondary worlds with no connection to our own wouldn't work. Sometimes a fair amount of story before the transportation into another world is necessary, because it shows the reader something of the stakes, or it gives the reader an idea what kind of person the protagonist is in our terms too. In Coraline, for instance, we have to see something of the protagonist's loneliness and her relationship with her real parents to understand why the fake ones are so appealing, at least initially. In The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, the back and forth before the four kids all end up in Narnia at the same time is important because we need to see their relationship with each other and how that affects their treatment of Lucy, and how it drives Edmund's initial defection. With Alice, the White Rabbit shows up a paragraph or two in, if I remember correctly. But the opening scene established that Alice was pretty bored.

In stories that are firmly set in our world, or in fantasy worlds with no portal, the opening scene may do something similar. It establishes stakes and motivation for the protagonist prior to the event that disrupts their normality. Sometimes it can happen a few pages (or even less) in, but other times it may take a chapter or more. I think most readers want some kind of tension and conflict before, though.

Fantasies set in completely different worlds work just fine, because readers are prepared to accept that world as normal in the context of the story, and they quickly set about learning how this new world works. Functionally, it's the same as writing a non-fantasy story set firmly in our own world. Take Game Of Thrones, for example--reads like historical fiction, except that the fictional world includes dragons and White walkers. It's the portal sort of story I was talking about.

But I agree with you that the opening scene or scenes in the "real" fictional world need to have some raison d'etre beyond establishing setting. Alice is bored, Coraline ignored, the Narnia kids displaced by war: they're not just placeholder scenes. Characterization, for example: all of them show readers something about the protagonist that will matter as the story continues.
 

Will Collins

Will Collins
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 24, 2010
Messages
1,235
Reaction score
35
Not at all, as long as you can still grip your audience in some way.
 

Laer Carroll

Aerospace engineer turned writer
Super Member
Registered
Temp Ban
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
2,481
Reaction score
271
Location
Los Angeles
Website
LaerCarroll.com
[Not always, but s]ometimes a fair amount of story before the transportation into another world is necessary...

The first act of Alicia Vikander's "Tomb Raider" is a perfect example. In several short scenes it establishes Lara Croft's setting, character, and need. And appropriately for an action-adventure movie it is both entertaining and exciting.

The setting is London which, even to Londoners, can be an exotic setting. Various shots show some of the picturesque and ordinary locations of this international and complex city. Lara Croft is a fit young bike courier with a hobby of Muy Thai kickboxing. She also needs money, so signs up for a bicycle race through the streets of London with a foxtail tied to her bike. Anyone who snatches it wins the 800-pound prize, or if not she wins it. During the race she shows cunning, stamina, and skill.

Other short scenes shows that she's the heir to a fortune but refuses to accept it because it would confirm that her seven-years-missing father is dead. A flashback shows the depth of love between the two, and that her father intended only a short trip. Giving in to her aunt's arguments, she goes to sign the papers accepting her inheritance. But before she signs she's given a puzzle box. Clever girl, she solves it and discovers a clue to his whereabouts. Aborting the signing, she leaves for Hong Kong after selling a dear heirloom for quest money.

The short Hong Kong second act is a sort of portal transporting her to another realm. It further establishes Lara's cunning, stamina, and skill with a chase and fight scene, where she deals with would-be backpack thieves, where she keeps her several thousand pounds of money and other stuff.

I think most readers want some kind of tension and conflict [in the prelim chapter too].


And "Tomb Raider" delivers on that in the first two acts before Lara enters the exotic location of an island in the near-Japan Devil's Sea. Where Lara encounters both real and supernatural danger.
 

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
23,124
Reaction score
10,886
Location
Where faults collide
Website
doggedlywriting.blogspot.com
Fantasies set in completely different worlds work just fine, because readers are prepared to accept that world as normal in the context of the story, and they quickly set about learning how this new world works. Functionally, it's the same as writing a non-fantasy story set firmly in our own world. Take Game Of Thrones, for example--reads like historical fiction, except that the fictional world includes dragons and White walkers. It's the portal sort of story I was talking about.

But I agree with you that the opening scene or scenes in the "real" fictional world need to have some raison d'etre beyond establishing setting. Alice is bored, Coraline ignored, the Narnia kids displaced by war: they're not just placeholder scenes. Characterization, for example: all of them show readers something about the protagonist that will matter as the story continues.

I suspect the need for normal world building prior to the introduction of a portal may differ, based on reader expectations of the genre too. Few people today pick up a fantasy novel without knowing it's a fantasy novel, because these books are shelved in that section and published by imprints who specialize in SFF. Also, the blurb ad cover design usually hint at the book's nature. I don't think fantasy readers "need" to see a set amount of normality in order to accept its departure, but I do think it is useful for framing the premise and for establishing character motives and stakes (since protagonists in portal fantasies are usually people who originate in our world and travel to the magical one).

Some of the longer intros I can recall for portal fantasies are in the Thomas Covenant books. In those, the author needed to establish the reason for his cynicism and disbelief (and horrific act) once he entered the fantasy world. The reader needed to understand what it was like to have leprosy in the US in the late 20th century, though I had trouble believing that the doctors would handle a patient with Hansen's disease (or any other) like that (and violate his right to confidentiality when there was no public health risk after antibiotic treatment). I still think it went on a bit too long and got kind of dull prior to his ending up in The Land. Also, in Outlander, the author spent a lot of time establishing the relationship between the protagonist and her husband, presumably so the reader would understand (and sympathize with) her later attempts to find her way back to her own time, even when she was falling in love and when it endangered the guys she was with in the past.

Some types of portal stories may need some normality first, but others can do with less. It helps, imo, to provide a broad hint early on that this isn't going to be a mundane story set in the mundane world, though. The old guy who shows up at the beginning of Neverwhere, while Richard is sitting outside the bar feeling ill, is an example of this. The old man Covenant ran into in the opening scene would be another example of such foreshadowing. In Outlander, the protagonist saw the mysterious Highlander standing outside in the rain early on.

Imagine reading a book, though, that goes on for chapter after chapter, unfolding like a normal work of contemporary or historical fiction, or a mystery, or romance or thriller or whatever, with no hint at all that it is really a work of fantasy. Suddenly, bam, many chapters in, the reader is plunged into a fantasy situation. Readers who expect fantasy would probably grow bored and give up before then, while readers who don't expect fantasy and are getting into the more "normal" plot will go "What?" and possibly put the book down in disgust at what feels like a violation of their expectations.
 

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
4,584
Reaction score
1,412
Location
The land from whence the shadows fall
Website
www.sunyidean.com
ABsolutely.

This is 100% what is wrong with my MS1. I've started the story after the MC has lost hope--and I need to show the incident that caused her to be that way. Otherwise it takes too long before she changes.
 

indianroads

Wherever I go, there I am.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 4, 2017
Messages
2,372
Reaction score
230
Location
Colorado
Website
indianroads.net
Just a question: If someone purchases a SFF book, wouldn't they already have read the back cover or Amazon description? If so, then they already have gotten a running start at learning what the world within the novel is all about. Wouldn't that lessen the burden on the author, and maybe even eliminate the need for a prologue?
 

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
4,584
Reaction score
1,412
Location
The land from whence the shadows fall
Website
www.sunyidean.com
I would argue that any book *can* be done with no prologue (as in, it is never needed) although it is a valid stylistic choice of course. (Similarly, any book can be done without epigraphs, or epilogues... Etc).

I'm not sure backs of books say much about the novel setting? Trying to comb my brain but I read blurbs so rarely >.>

Anyway, tangent.
 

blacbird

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
36,987
Reaction score
6,158
Location
The right earlobe of North America
Among the best, most effective starts to a story that I've ever read is Stephen King's opening to The Gunslinger. Zero world-building. As in none. It's a story from the first sentence, and that first sentence is enough to confirm that for any reader. Yeah, it is STEPHEN KING, but still it works and would work without his name being attached to it. A huge part of the fascination of this first episode in a long dark fantasy series is finding out about the world the story inhabits. There are lots of mysteries that the POV protag doesn't understand, and many others that he encounters along the way, mysteries he didn't even know existed. He makes incorrect interpretations and assumptions about his world, as well. The technique makes for a hell of a good, compelling read.

If King had "explained" that world up front, it would have killed the story deader than Donald Trump's intellect.

caw
 

Zoe R

Fluffhead! Fluffy fluffy head!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 30, 2017
Messages
183
Reaction score
31
Yes. Oh man yes. In fact I find that with new writers specifically of middle grade fiction almost every time I'm asked to look at an opening, it's too fast and too late in the story. I think this is because for years writers have had it grilled into them to start with a bang, to start in the middle of something, get the story going. And it's sound advice in a way. But it's not actually about starting so late into a story. What it's actually all about is what everyone else here has been saying: being compelling. Being compelling does not mean not grounding the reader (grounding is why Hunger Games and Harry Potter start when they do, a reaping doesn't mean much if we don't care about the people being . . . reaped . . . and discovering you're a wizard isn't that special unless we understand how mundane/terrible one's life was before the discovery). It just means whatever you write and wherever you start needs to capture the reader from page one.

Oh my goodness I am struggling with this right now.... I pretty much restructured the whole beginning of my book, so it would start with more conflict (which was a good thing), but even within that it seems most advice wants there to be something happening immediately in the first few lines. I think I naturally prefer a few pages of slow burn, so attacking it from different angles to have immediate action has been interesting but somewhat frustrating.
 

BethS

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
11,708
Reaction score
1,763
Also, in Outlander, the author spent a lot of time establishing the relationship between the protagonist and her husband, presumably so the reader would understand (and sympathize with) her later attempts to find her way back to her own time, even when she was falling in love and when it endangered the guys she was with in the past.

And also because that relationship becomes very important again in later volumes.
 

BethS

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
11,708
Reaction score
1,763
Just a question: If someone purchases a SFF book, wouldn't they already have read the back cover or Amazon description? If so, then they already have gotten a running start at learning what the world within the novel is all about. Wouldn't that lessen the burden on the author, and maybe even eliminate the need for a prologue?

Well, yes--presumably the readers do have some notion of the type of book they're about to read before they open the book. The genre, if nothing else.

But I'm not sure what prologues have to do with that. They aren't (or shouldn't be) there to tell the reader what sort of book it is.