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WESTERN NARRATIVE TRADITION: the Hollywood plot structure

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CAQuinn

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im new here but im today going to make a thread called WESTERN NARRATIVE TRADITION.

a plot is specific its like the clothes you put on that you like and appeal to you as the individual
but underneath that is the body, and while everybody's bodies often look different in size shape color, etc.
our skeletons are remarkably similar... and that skeleton is the plot structure of Western Narrative Tradition.
as was pointed out to me in cinema class, hollywood has learned some really good rules for conducting business
as the business of making films costs studios hundreds of millions of dollars every year. so if stuff doesn't work great they toss it.

i guess what im saying is that WNT was built upon the much older freytag plot structure with a lot more added.
it tells you when to have tense situations/battles/conficts... when the character is supposed to lose, supposed to win,

and while there will always be writers who dislike to use a skeleton of WNT. i love it myself.
if it hadn't worked so well for all these decades Hollywood would have changed it or tossed it out.
 
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CAQuinn

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The 13-fold division of the Western Narrative Tradition

Here are the 13 structure/pillar points of the COMPLETE Western Narrative Template, 4 acts.

1. 1st act, Opening hook
2. Exposition
3. Catalyst, call to the quest, 1st major conflict
4. Mentor, talisman, and denial of the call
5. Doorway to the otherworld of the quest, 2nd major conflict
6. 2A/2nd act, Rising action
7. Midpoint climax and reversal, 3rd major conflict
8. 2B/3rd act, Falling action
9. Character arc, 4th major conflict
10. Lowest/highest point, 5th major conflict
11. 3rd/4th act, Inner climax of character readiness.
12. Climax, 6th major conflict
13. resolution

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The strict template of the western narrative, has an equal length 4-part sectioning. In the 4 act structure, there are the 1st, 2nd, 3rd act endings, with the 4th act ending as the script/film ends.

3 act: 1st act , 2A , 2B , 3rd act

|--------------|--------------|--------------|-------------|
4 act: 1st act , 2nd act , 3rd act , 4th act


Every single scene must be made to serve the story or it’s not needed.


The overall story on the W.N. template of 13 divisions has its specific diagram, describing this sequence of events in a timeline that the whole script is divided into. This division of the entire 13 pillars, (or just the main 5 points of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd act endings with the catalyst and climax); can be used to structure; just one scene, or one sequence, as well as the overall story.
I act opening,
1,Opening hook… initial exciting scene that wows, but it is also exposition of what’s going on at the present.
2,Exposition… the protag’s story before the call from the ‘Quest’ through the ‘other world’.
3,Catalyst… (the call; something new happens, something changes, in the protag’s life to introduce and make them aware of the ‘otherworld’ of the ‘Quest’.)
4,a)Mentor & b)Talisman & c)Denial of Call… all 3 are movable from before the 1st act break to just after 2nd act begins, and this makes the - c) denial of the call - a ‘freak out’ denial about the otherworld; while in it. The mentor is the person who informs the protag about the ‘otherworld’. The Talisman is the ‘physical object’ from the ‘otherworld’ given to the protag, to validate the truth of the otherworld’s existence and to aid the protag in the ‘otherworld quest. Sometimes the protag does not want to enter the ‘otherworld of the quest’; but then fully commits. There can be more Mentor’s, Talismans and Denials spaced through the movie other than just here. Often the talisman can save the protag’s life, like Luke’s light saber, or from Training Day, when the new cop saves the teen girl from rape and gets her clutch bag, and that saves his life later.
5,1st act end…(1/4 pages of the total script; and it should be TO THE PAGE NUMBER!) the doorway IN-to the other world; the quest begins here. As it’s the new Exposition of the ‘Quests’ new ‘otherworld’, but usually its only ‘won’ after an enormous conflict. The conflict of the catalyst is usually a lesser conflict than the conflict of the 1st act break. And whether the Protag wins or loses this conflict, they enter the otherworld.
II act opening
6,Rising action… Begins the series of tests like ‘steps’; plateau, struggle, plateau, struggle, plateau, struggle. Each ‘rise’ of the step is higher stakes than the one before. The plateaus are the calm in between tense moments. In the ‘Freytag Pyramid’ (which is the forerunner of the Western narrative tradition) the scenes of the rising action before the midpoint / 2nd act break; are often, ‘mirrored’ in scenes from the falling action which happens after the midpoint… but this is an advanced writing style along with ‘establishing’ bigger scenes with intro and exit scenes.)
7,Midpoint crisis; the reversal… 1/2 way through the entire script, exactly. In the 4 act structure, this is the 2nd act ending, BEFORE the 3rd act. It’s these ‘act breaks’ that hold the conflict; while it’s the opening of the new acts that are the plateaus as the calms in between the storms. This Midpoint crisis, should be a bigger conflict then the 1st act break, (where the protag ‘wins’ entry into the otherworld of the quest). The protag wins ‘this’ battle, as they are made to lose the steps of conflict / trials that were before it all through in the 2nd act. After this battle, the protag has new: 1)info about the Quest, 2)new allies, 3)new talismans, 4)new abilities. And there is more, This is the reversal, as well. And that means, that somehow, everything is ‘new’. It’s a total new beginning phase of the quest, with a better focus on goals, wants, needs of the Protag’s quest.
III act opening
8, falling action… (ends w- 3rd act break) These are harder tests with the conflicts more intense, than in the rising action; with the script slowly ‘raising the stakes’ at each step from the lesser stakes at the step before. Many times there are ‘Mirror’ scenes from the ‘rising action’. During this 3rd of the 4 equal lengths of the entire script, there is always the character arc. And sometimes the Inner climax of Character readiness happens here. IF IT SERVES STORY! This is the point where the Protag’s side is snapping at each other in anger as the tension grows.
9,character arc… (the choice; close to 2B/3rd act end. The character has been growing in their character development, growing from one paradigm, by the confict thrust on them, to a new paradigm, that heals/elevates them to complete their archetype. The ‘hero’ accepts his selfless sacrifice as a ‘hero’; a ‘nurse’ accepts her selfless sacrifice as a ‘nurse’.)
10,2B/3rd act end… (3/4 of the entire script. Lowest/highest moment. Here we are at an even stronger conflict than the midpoint crisis. In a normal drama this is the lowest point of the protag as they lose this battle/conflict, while still remaining undefeated. But in a tragedy this is the highest point of the protag before they die.) Here, as an act break, the protag can also gain allies, knowledge, abilities, or talismans, but it’s not enough… they lose the conflict.
IV act opening
11,Inner climax readiness… (movable to after arc, and before the 2B/3rd act break) This is the most hidden pillar of the western narrative structure. Why did the protag lose the 2b/3rd act break conflict. They have already had their character arc, but something else is missing or they would have won the 2B/ 3rdact break conflict. What was missing? If the character development comes full circle already before now, then the protag is missing; a final ally, ability, knowledge, or talisman. And furthermore; this is where the protag proves themselves over and over that they are worthy of the victory, by their self-sacrificing actions.
12,Climax, as proving by action… Technically by now, the protag has already proved, in all ways, that they are ready for the victory. AND NOW COMES THE FINAL CONFLICT. The physical manifestation of the ‘inner readiness’, that accomplishes the quest. And this winning of the climax conflict leads to the protag’s epiphany moment.
13,resolution… (ends act and script.) By now all plotlines have come together and been resolved. And the ordinary world has been re-entered in a new life, as the quest through the otherworld has been a shamanic journey that returns the protag to the normal world, but reborn into a higher/lower state. Depending on the storyline, and remember everything, every scene, serves the story or its not needed, as this extra stuff can confuse the storylines trajectory.
As a writer, the more you love your protagonist, the more you will beat them up. The Protag may or may not win the 1st act break conflict / trial. But other than the 1st act break, the Protag only win’s the midpoint and the climax, and they fail ALL other times in their MAIN GOAL; even if they seem to win the conflict itself. Yes they killed the squad of baddies, but they have still not recovered the hostage.
 

benbenberi

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Sounds like yet another riff on the Save the Cat formula. If it works for you, thats great. A lot of people have used it -- there are tons of tools out there to support it, templates & beat sheets & other aids.

That said, it's by no means a universal or required structure. There are lots of ways to construct an interesting story, and this is only one of them.

And be aware, writers who adhere to the formula too rigidly are at risk of producing work that feels predictable and formulaic. (There has been a lot of criticism of film scripts on this basis in the last few years.) When you're using the same plot structure as 97,452 other works in your genre, readers get to recognize the shape of it and at any given point in the story they'll know pretty accurately what's probably going to happen next. For some types of story that's ok. For others, maybe not so much.
 

VeryBigBeard

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:welcome:

May I suggest reading works published outside our current time and place?

Read medieval texts. Read Renaissance poetry. Read Victorian novels. Read outside the "western" tradition, too.
 

CAQuinn

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yeah save the cat is popular for writers who have problems to fix in their scripts, and yes it tries to fix scripts using the western narrative tradition, because thats how hollywood writes them.
and of course there is no 1 method to write successful stories. find different ways and explore them all if you can... is a great way to grow as a writer

what i did was to post a tried and true structure that is used for movies and tv. i posted it to people who may wish to see how a popular plot structure is used and taught in cinema schools all over the world... and as i said earlier a skeleton is a skeleton, next there is the body, genre if you will, and then there's the clothes that go on making it very individual. maybe some people get tired of obiwan kenobi showing up in luke's life as the mentor in the first act. and it is predictable! i agree. but... for myself i like to read or watch the first time, with the wonder of a child, without trying to guess who the secret bad guy is, i just love to let the story unfold and tell itself, i actually consider that to be a wonderful gift, to be able to turn off that analytical part of my brain and just ENJOY. obiwan didnt have to die at the 3rd act ending. but it definitely raised the stakes emotionally in the audience, providing the lowest point in the film for luke.

yeah so other people definitely have other ways to develop plot structure. but here on this thread i have very completely given a quick course on a more advanced then basic understanding of the hollywood western narrative tradition. and lets have other writers make posts about other plot structures that are used. perhaps someone will cover the freytag pyramid that's over 2000 years old. perhaps someone will post about an eastern asian plot structure, that would be great too.

the point for me was to share the knowledge to those who may have trouble with plot formation. and im sure some of the ideas in the post will help many writers even if just a little,

best wishes to all

christoph
 

Harlequin

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Right, so you've actually posted a lecture rather than wanting to start a discussion.

By way of explanation, most people will assume that topics started in these forums are an invitation to engage in discussion, so people are responding to you in that vein. Not because they are subverting your thread in some way (although I seem to be doing that in this post, ironically) and not to attack you.

To your broader point, writing films is very different to writing novels. But if it helps you write a novel, use whatever fits.
 
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mccardey

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To your broader point, writing films is very different to writing novels.
Seconding this. In fact, OP, if you want to have a look around there have been at least three posters in the last ten days or so bewailing the fact that the difference is so very - well - different. And it really is. (There's quite a bunch of us here who began in film or tv.)
 

CAQuinn

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i truly welcome discussions, i was also hoping for specific plot structuring and character building advice to be posted. i never thought anyone was subverting the thread, but if someone wants to bring in side topics that only lightly touch on plot structure character development , thats great too. many are here to learn. many are hear to discuss all is welcome, thats how we find new ways to write... and for myself and turning 4 of my scripts into books, nothing changed on the plot, or characters at all. but yeah i agree, writing books and scripts are different in some very basic ways. so again calling out to people to hopefully post on plot structure and character development advice or chatting.
 
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CAQuinn

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so just curious ... whats 'OP' stand for? does it mean 'original poster'?
 
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cbenoi1

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i was also hoping for specific plot structuring and character building advice to be posted.
This is the Basic Writing Questions forum. I guess we were expecting - I dunno - a question?

-cb
 

mccardey

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so just curious ... whats 'OP' stand for?
Original Post or Original Poster.

ETA: Here's a link to the AW Dictionary. Since you're new, it might be a good idea to have a bit of a read of some of the FAQ stickies as well. And if you have a hunt around, you might find there's already a few discussions about structure in writing that you might be interested in as well.
 
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She_wulf

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The structure you provided is mostly external conflict.
Writing the internal conflict is a bit more of the challenge.

In Die Hard, the external trope is save the girl.
The internal conflict is "is the girl worth it?" (and of course, she is by being faithful to the protag, because... Hollywood), but that bit of uncertainty drives both the inner conflict, and provides an interesting device to increase the tension when she is found out to be the wife of the guy causing all the trouble.

What you're posting also follows many of the tropes out there. (there's a whole database of movie tropes to peruse) Some will fit the story you have in your head, while others may just be too cliche'.

When you think about the movies or books that qualify as formula, you can almost name that trope by the end of the first chapter. That's okay. Not everyone has a new trope to tell. It is HOW you tell it. You could give five writers an opening scene, a lake, a grassy field next to the lake, and a dock. You'd get five different stories. Some would be sweet, others, scary, and at least one serial killer alien.

Like Harlequin said, if it works for you, use whatever fits.
 

CAQuinn

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thank you mccardey,

for the dictionary, stickies,and past posts heads up, much appreciated!
 

CAQuinn

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-cb

is that 'we' as in the royal we... after all you do have the jack as you avatar?
a question as in people are curious about things.
'we' curious about other peoples takes on plot structure and character building
and yes that is the royal we!

if you notice mccardey and she wulf posted some pretty useful stuff
 

cbenoi1

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is that 'we' as in the royal we... after all you do have the jack as you avatar?
I picked a default icon from the list provided by this web site.

if you notice mccardey and she wulf posted some pretty useful stuff
Did you, by any chance, looked at the video I posted? Because John Truby is one of those Tinsel Town gurus that's called in when a script goes nowhere. He has this 22-steps process that gets you thinking about elements of your story and characters. His book is pretty generic. The gold is in how each genre is declined by those steps. I encourage you to look at his other videos too, to get a feel for his way of thinking. You will also find on his web site a slew of movie analysis. There is a section for each genre. You will find Action (which, if you watched the video, takes its roots in the Western tradition), at this link: http://truby.com/category/genre/action/

'we' curious about other peoples takes on plot structure and character building
You will get to what you are seeking much faster by asking questions.

-cb
 

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the point for me was to share the knowledge to those who may have trouble with plot formation. and im sure some of the ideas in the post will help many writers even if just a little,

christoph

The "Western Narrative Tradition" as a creative theory owes its birth to Aristotelian rhetorical theory (Aristotle's The Poetics), with a leavening dose of Horace (Ars Poetica). It originally began as an explanation of the way tragic Greek drama functioned compared to the way epics functioned. Freytag made it famous for screen writers in the 1950s.

It's been discussed more than a little on AW, in various places.

I'm strongly tempted to move this to Screenwriting, but I'll leave it here for now.
 
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