Witnessing an extinction

It's sad when small animals go extinct too....

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...frog-frog-amphibians-extinct-extinction-media

Whether it is a fungal disease, global warming (polar bears and ice floes might be next), or the white rhino, it is sad for sure. I think most of the white rhinos were killed for ivory (for profit), not so much for trophy kills. Similar to sharks caught, fins cut, and tossed in the ocean to suffocate (still alive, cannot swim to get oxygen into gills). Japanese fishing boats (disguised as "research vessels") catch whales and try to satiate Japanese demand for fish with them. They do this in the southern ocean. Will whales of the southern ocean go extinct one day? Maybe.

It's mostly a culture issue. Cultures who demand these items, at all costs, must first change. This does not include the story of "Toughie," but the need for shark fins (for shark fin soup) or rhino horns for medicinal use.

Nope, not at all. The story is about the rhino, for sure!

Enlightened said:

.... I think most of the white rhinos were killed for ivory (for profit), not so much for trophy kills. ....

Click to expand...

No ivory. That would be elephants. The rino horn is made of nothing but keratin, like fingernails. The belief is absurd from health claims to virility.

There's still a tiny chance of continuing the species with in-vitro fertilization, the eggs implanted in a closely related species.

Doh! Great catch. You are right; same as human hair (keratin).

Enlightened said:

It's sad when small animals go extinct too....

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...frog-frog-amphibians-extinct-extinction-media

Whether it is a fungal disease, global warming (polar bears and ice floes might be next), or the white rhino, it is sad for sure. I think most of the white rhinos were killed for ivory (for profit), not so much for trophy kills. Similar to sharks caught, fins cut, and tossed in the ocean to suffocate (still alive, cannot swim to get oxygen into gills). Japanese fishing boats (disguised as "research vessels") catch whales and try to satiate Japanese demand for fish with them. They do this in the southern ocean. Will whales of the southern ocean go extinct one day? Maybe.

It's mostly a culture issue. Cultures who demand these items, at all costs, must first change. This does not include the story of "Toughie," but the need for shark fins (for shark fin soup) or rhino horns for medicinal use.

Click to expand...

One thing that is encouraging is that attitudes about shark fin soup are changing in China, and the laws are changing as a result. Shark fin consumption has dropped there by 80% in just a few years. And Air China has banned the transport of shark fin cargo, which Fed Ex has not yet done.

Hopefully, it's soon enough. Sadly, the popularity of shark fin soup seems to be increasing in other countries.

I was sad to hear about Sudan's death but his species had been doomed for several years already. At least he and the other last ones had (and have) to privilege to die in their own habitat, protected and cared for. Others don't have that luxury.

But I'm getting fucking tired of the long list of extinctions during my lifetime. I'm not even 40 yet and there have been too many already. Too. Many. And I know there will be plenty more to come very soon. The vaquita and the north Pacific right whale will likely be among them.

And all for fashion (because in many ways this unsustainable demand for asian traditional medicine is at the root fashion, since there's no actual medicinal basis) and short-term profit.

Strike two from the species Douglas Adams visited in his radioseries/book Last Chance to See (after the Yangtze river dolphin, which had already been declared extinct by the time Stephen Fry recorded a follow up TV show).
Both versions of Last Chance To See are definitely worth a look, btw. As is Douglas's talk on his experiences - Parrots, the universe and everything

Hate to see stuff like this happen. So many beautiful animals are far too endangered.

We've managed to pull some back from the brink--sea otters, condors, Arabian oryxes, wolves, raptors from DDT, some whale species and so on, but rhinos have proven to be especially vulnerable and fragile. They are huge, relatively solitary, reproduce slowly, need a lot of space, and are hunted by humans for their "horns." I know I'm not supposed to scoff at other people's beliefs, and that telling people rhino horns are the same protein as fingernails convinces no one who believes that it's the spiritual essence of an animal's body part, not the chemistry, that gives it powers. It's a religious or spiritual belief, not a rational one. But it's hard to respect these beliefs when they are killing off species after species of rhino.

Western culture has nothing to brag about either. Our belief in the right to expand and use our land and natural resources to better ourselves (not to mention the belief that human needs always trump those of other species) has killed off and endangered a large number of species too, but there's been a lot of change in this attitude in recent decades. It's still a struggle, though. Most Americans support the endangered species act until it stops them from doing something they want to do with their land. Then it becomes (as far as the land owner is concerned) unnecessary bureaucracy or heavy-handed government intervention, and a violation of property rights.

In America, we don't have a belief in the mystical power of rhino horns or bear gall bladders or tiger bones, but we have a near-religious worship of private property and the right to do as we please with it. That, and our worship of profitability, has created its own carnage

We humans all have to be willing to abandon our cherished traditions and beliefs if we want the Earth to stay beautiful and diverse, or even livable.

Roxxsmom said:

We've managed to pull some back from the brink--sea otters, condors, Arabian oryxes, wolves, raptors from DDT, some whale species and so on

Click to expand...

Which reminds me of a side point. We always consider and worry about 'big ticket' species when it comes to extinctions, but never about the little guy. I read about the condors a while back and how, as part of the conservation program, they were captured and tagged. The first thing they did on capturing them was de-louse them, and in the process probably wiped out a species of louse that was unique to the condor. Evidence suggests this louse did no harm, the condor was just a sort of mobile home for the little fella. Don't know if this is the article I originally read, but it's a good read.

I know I'm not supposed to scoff at other people's beliefs, and that telling people rhino horns are the same protein as fingernails convinces no one who believes that it's the spiritual essence of an animal's body part, not the chemistry, that gives it powers. It's a religious or spiritual belief, not a rational one. But it's hard to respect these beliefs when they are killing off species after species of rhino.

Click to expand...

It's not scoffing at people's religion when we say, 'hey, yanno, maybe you should try not being quite so homophobic and give that couple their damn cake', I don't see why it should be scoffing to say 'hey, maybe you should not wipe out an entire species for your imaginary cures'.

What's with the casual racism in this thread?

Love the pics, Regdog; and the article provides some hope. Kind if bittersweet, but hopeful.

Roxxsmom said:

raptors from DDT,

Click to expand...

Sadly in the UK some raptor species such as the hen harrier are in danger from landowners who shoot them because they eat grouse and they want to do grouse hunting on their land - an upper class passtime (similar to how fox hunting is, albeit it's somewhat less barbaric than fox hunting) where they go and shoot grouse that have been bred to be shot by rich people.

https://raptorpersecutionscotland.w...ng-trial-gets-green-light-to-start-this-year/
https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com/2018/02/19/rspb-launches-new-raptor-crime-hotline/
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...tivity-dismissed-as-nonsense?CMP=share_btn_tw

These birds are protected by British wildlife laws but it seems that trying to get upper class and rich people prosecuted for such crimes is a lot harder than when it's working class people doing it.

Western culture has nothing to brag about either. Our belief in the right to expand and use our land and natural resources to better ourselves (not to mention the belief that human needs always trump those of other species) has killed off and endangered a large number of species too, but there's been a lot of change in this attitude in recent decades. It's still a struggle, though. Most Americans support the endangered species act until it stops them from doing something they want to do with their land. Then it becomes (as far as the land owner is concerned) unnecessary bureaucracy or heavy-handed government intervention, and a violation of property rights.

In America, we don't have a belief in the mystical power of rhino horns or bear gall bladders or tiger bones, but we have a near-religious worship of private property and the right to do as we please with it. That, and our worship of profitability, has created its own carnage

We humans all have to be willing to abandon our cherished traditions and beliefs if we want the Earth to stay beautiful and diverse, or even livable.

Click to expand...

Agree 100%. The hen harrier thing in the UK is a clear example of rich westerners putting their traditions way above the welfare of wildlife.

JimmyB27 said:

Strike two from the species Douglas Adams visited in his radioseries/book Last Chance to See (after the Yangtze river dolphin, which had already been declared extinct by the time Stephen Fry recorded a follow up TV show).
Both versions of Last Chance To See are definitely worth a look, btw. As is Douglas's talk on his experiences - Parrots, the universe and everything

Click to expand...

God that book broke my heart but it sure proved prophetic.

Roxxsmom said:

We've managed to pull some back from the brink--sea otters, condors, Arabian oryxes, wolves, raptors from DDT, some whale species and so on, but rhinos have proven to be especially vulnerable and fragile.

Click to expand...

True, but it costs massive amounts of time and resources. It requires people do dedicate their entire lives to it. (Which I respect and admire immensely because I don't think I could) But I can't help but think we could have done better than pulling things back from the brink if we didn't put them out there in the first place.

Western culture has nothing to brag about either. Our belief in the right to expand and use our land and natural resources to better ourselves (not to mention the belief that human needs always trump those of other species) has killed off and endangered a large number of species too, but there's been a lot of change in this attitude in recent decades.

Click to expand...

I agree. I'd say western culture practically wrote the extinction rulebook. Oh, the travesty of the extinction of the Great Auk! Hunting has decimated the Great Auk numbers! Quick, lets kill of the remainder so we at least can fill our museums with their dead offspring as a dire warning against extinction! *cringe* You'd think we'd learn.

The fungal extinctions in frogs and bats have been caused by our demand of exotic pets and our unmitigated taste for travelling.

Like palm oil, the greatest demand for the stuff comes from the west, but it is destroying Asian rainforests like nothing before, putting the orang-utan and so many others well on the path of extinction. Heck, sometimes I feel like I can't take a single step without causing some animal somewhere go extinct because I'm unwittingly as much part of the driving force behind their going as anyone of us.

Friendly Frog said:

True, but it costs massive amounts of time and resources. It requires people do dedicate their entire lives to it. (Which I respect and admire immensely because I don't think I could) But I can't help but think we could have done better than pulling things back from the brink if we didn't put them out there in the first place.

Click to expand...

You'll get absolutely no argument from me on this

What really blows my mind are those people who shrug and say, "So what? It's just a rhino, what good is it really?" or whatever.

Friendly Frog said:

Like palm oil, the greatest demand for the stuff comes from the west, but it is destroying Asian rainforests like nothing before, putting the orang-utan and so many others well on the path of extinction. Heck, sometimes I feel like I can't take a single step without causing some animal somewhere go extinct because I'm unwittingly as much part of the driving force behind their going as anyone of us.

Click to expand...

Yeah, it's a horrible feeling. Just by virtue of living where and how we do, we're doing enormous damage. I don't have the means to move into a zero-carbon "green" enclave, give up plastic, or purchase a car that gets 50 or more miles per gallon (let alone one that meets my needs for an all-around commuter and dog-mobile). Trying to make sure one's food and products are all produced locally is also impractical for most of us and so on. Even if one is serious about "going green" our infrastructure and economy doesn't really support it. It is also hard to weigh different choices and their relative harm (like weighing the relative harm of fibers like wool or cotton versus artificial fibers). So we make some changes that reduce our humongous carbon footprint somewhat, but nowhere near down to a level that is sustainable for the planet as a whole.

I had no kids*, so maybe that contributes in a small way to a lower carbon footprint. However, I've been told I'm selfish for that choice, because our economy "needs" more people to support retirees. It's also been pointed out that my animals probably have larger carbon footprints than some children in less industrialized countries. No matter what one does, one is told it is harmful. Small wonder some people get disgusted and give up entirely.

*This wasn't really a "sacrifice" I made for the planet, but due to a lack of any particular maternal instinct.

Roxxsmom said:

I had no kids*, so maybe that contributes in a small way to a lower carbon footprint. However, I've been told I'm selfish for that choice, because our economy "needs" more people to support retirees. It's also been pointed out that my animals probably have larger carbon footprints than some children in less industrialized countries. No matter what one does, one is told it is harmful. Small wonder some people get disgusted and give up entirely.

Click to expand...

Sigh. Some people really need to mind their own business.

But, yes, "going green" is almost impossible when the infrastructure and economy aren't set up for it. Especially when it comes to corporations (and various individuals) that put profit first.

Roxxsmom said:

What really blows my mind are those people who shrug and say, "So what? It's just a rhino, what good is it really?" or whatever.

Click to expand...

That's so sad. I saw a lot of comments like that when following the news on the frog fungal extinctions and I can sort of see why; I mean, frogs aren't everybody's cup of tea (something I don't quite get, but as my username probably suggests I may be a teensy bit biased in that aspect) and small and ubiquitous. It's easy to miss why they're so important.

But rhinos are big, in your face, exotic and a giant bundle of myopic discontent topped off with a horn. Surely they have to mean something. Especially when they're gone.

Yeah, it's a horrible feeling. Just by virtue of living where and how we do, we're doing enormous damage. I don't have the means to move into a zero-carbon "green" enclave, give up plastic, or purchase a car that gets 50 or more miles per gallon (let alone one that meets my needs for an all-around commuter and dog-mobile). Trying to make sure one's food and products are all produced locally is also impractical for most of us and so on. Even if one is serious about "going green" our infrastructure and economy doesn't really support it. It is also hard to weigh different choices and their relative harm (like weighing the relative harm of fibers like wool or cotton versus artificial fibers).

Click to expand...

Well, that's the thing isn't it? You can't do everything. And god forbid you have health or mobility issues. I read about a study that said that as long as people do something 'green' they'll feel good about themselves and feel like they have permission to do something less green. Like "I went to work on a bicycle for the last month, now I can go on holiday with a low cost but ecologically unfriendly plane-flight." I was thinking well, what are we supposed to do? You just can't do everything green. Sometimes you have to choose and doing one thing means you won't be able to do the other.

They're really promoting electric cars here as the new green alternative, but they nicely forget that the electricity for those cars has to be produced somewhere, and that but a smaller portion of our current electricity production is renewable. Also the batteries are filled with rare earth minerals which also have to come from somewhere. Hello, there massive deforestation and mining. Bio-products (if they're not just labelled that to have us pay more) are wrapped in plastic (bonkers, I know) to keep them from getting contaminated by pesticide-residues from non-bio products. So do you want to support bio-agriculture or reduce your plastic usage? Which do you choose? You can't do both this way.

I had no kids*, so maybe that contributes in a small way to a lower carbon footprint. However, I've been told I'm selfish for that choice, because our economy "needs" more people to support retirees. It's also been pointed out that my animals probably have larger carbon footprints than some children in less industrialized countries. No matter what one does, one is told it is harmful. Small wonder some people get disgusted and give up entirely.

Click to expand...

And there's the other massive elephant in the room: there are too many of us. Our big planet is too small. But you get told off just for thinking that. By chance I don't have kids either, and when I get asked why not and not wanting to go into an explanation (I do agree, people really should mind their own business on that end) I sometimes laughingly said I did't want to contribute to the over-population. Big. Mistake. It was like I had suggested an Eindlösing.

These days I say I just never got around to kids. That just opens another line of inquiry but eh...beats the alternative, I suppose

Friendly Frog said:

These days I say I just never got around to kids. That just opens another line of inquiry but eh...beats the alternative, I suppose

Click to expand...

I just tell people I'd have been the kind of parent who would take her kid to the grocery store and get lost in my own thoughts or distracted by something shiny and accidentally leave them there.

Roxxsmom said:

I just tell people I'd have been the kind of parent who would take her kid to the grocery store and get lost in my own thoughts or distracted by something shiny and accidentally leave them there.

Click to expand...

I dunno why you guys make excuses at all, tbh. Just use a good old-fashioned death stare. Nothing says "that's such a personal question I have difficulty understanding how you, a supposedly normally socialised individual, could ever think it was appropriate to ask", quite as effectively.

Albedo said:

I dunno why you guys make excuses at all, tbh. Just use a good old-fashioned death stare. Nothing says "that's such a personal question I have difficulty understanding how you, a supposedly normally socialised individual, could ever think it was appropriate to ask", quite as effectively.

Click to expand...

That's much more civil than my response.

Helix said:

That's much more civil than my response.

Click to expand...

Ooh. Are we talking the nuclear death stare, or actually unleashing laser beams from your eyes? Cos yeah, the latter's a bit uncivil.

Enduring mysteries: I, as a childless man in my mid-thirties, have never, ever been quizzed on my reproductive choices. For whatever reason, the fact I don't have kids is usually met with a 'well huh' and a discussion of something else, not a) concern expressed for the viability of my testicles, b) a recommendation of what essential oils might fix my hormones, c) prayer, d) ostracism. You'd think that blokes bear 50% responsibility for, uh, whatever the hell the children-are-mandatory bunch are worried about, but they don't act like it.

As to the rest of this thread, I've avoided it so far, because god damn is the anthropocene becoming depressing, and dammed if I know if it's worse responding with ennui, or the increasingly righteous misanthropy that feels right, but is hardly constructive, y'know?

We only lost the baiji in 2015, and now the vaquita will be gone soon. Vale little sea pig, too good for this world. I'm sorry your existence was incompatible with our use of your waters.

Vale, northern white rhino, thou ornery bastard. I did a school project on my favourite land mammals age 11. Didn't think they'd be gone in two decades. Funny, that.

We've been evolving for a billion years as part of a system. None of us are atoms. We're individuals but our minds and our bodies exist in populations, that exist in communities and ecosystems, that exist in a biosphere. There are no hard boundaries. Birdsong and frogs croaking and intestinal bugs and the sun's warmth are as much a part of us and our psychologies as our thoughts are. We need the system to be human. Take it away so there are no more rhinoceroses and porpoises and bees and coral and frogs and trees and we've taken razors to ourselves. The future as it stands is sensory deprivation and solitary confinement that goes on forever.