McCabe Fired

ap123 · Mar 18, 2018

Alessandra Kelley said:
I have the sad suspicion that she meant only that your feelings were irrelevant.

Now now, I can't be paranoid--I'm pretty sure she meant me, all my filthy leftie hippie friends, and my conservative friend who was the OP. &#55357;&#56841;

Larry M said:
My experiences in conversations, in person and online, with such people, inevitably reveal a lack of intelligent thought and reason from them. One is most often met with pseudo-macho blathering, petty name calling and insults, like dealing with a petulant, defiant child. These people most often spew hate, fear, paranoia, and insecurity, even if you try to understand their position. They cannot defend their position without hostility.

I'd say this has been one of the smaller but uglier aspects of the last couple of years for me. Sure, there were always people like that, but I had a mix of friends I was able to have intelligent conversations with. That ended with the rise of Trump. With a few exceptions, my conservative friends went off the deep end, since that's the only way to support him, and I have 0 tolerance for anyone who does.

ElaineA said:
Yep, my takeaway from this debacle, no matter how it ends: Trump has left a new road map for the next attempt. He has proven how flimsy our system was, built with complete dependence on people adhering to a set of principles based on nothing more than an ethical willingness to do so. Because the founders presumed those willing to serve under our system would somehow be doing so out of a sense of service to country and citizens. Now the crooks and grifters and Mercers and Koch's and Blackwaters can see with their own eyes how very simple it is to just ignore those principles and do whatever the hell they please. It's incredibly depressing to be witnessing.

I agree with ap, if we hope to recover our government, it's going to need a far more solid foundation. As in, Constitutional amendments solid. Not holding my breath, mind you. The Roman Empire was the old road map sitting all crumpled and folded wrong in the back of the glovebox. Someone was bound to pull it out eventually.

Yup. I wish I could feel this will all be ok, but I don't.

nighttimer said:
I'd say nothing is left because this high-powered political attorney comes off like a raving loony tune. What is there to be gained to try and engage in civil conversation and reasoned discourse with someone who vaguely threatens violence to protect their "god-given rights?" It doesn't take long to be online and learn you can't talk sense to the senseless and arguing with idiots is a complete waste of time.

My retort to "You Lefties should understand what we are willing to do to protect our rights" is "You Righties should understand what we Lefties are willing to do to protect our lives."

The rise of Trump has sparked a lot of tough-talk, fist waving and veiled threats of serious beatdowns and worse in store for anyone who doesn't get with the program, but I am not going to be intimidated by assholes who get really brave behind a keyboard. A decent society tolerates the intolerant, but right about now, I'm feeling a bit indecent.

Agreed. Leaving the conversation was the only sensible thing to do imo once she started blathering vague threats. Anything further felt like volunteering to take myself ten steps closer to the stroke I'm sure to have before this is all over.

I have to admit, I've been thinking a lot about that whole democracy/decent society tolerating the intolerant aspect, and wondering if there was any way to avoid where we are now when that's our guideline. Right wing pundits on liberal arts college campuses, fine. But picketing and harassment outside of women's health care clinics, allowing Confederate flags to be flown, statues of Confederate "heroes" in town squares, self-proclaimed nazis building websites and advertising for new members? Not saying this is the sum total of how we got where we are, but I think it's a contributing factor that bears rethinking if we're ever in a position to dig out of this flaming pile of dung.

CWatts said:
What is good for? Absolutely nothing.

But it can be fun to reply to that outrageous "god-given guns" argument by deadpaning "So, you worship Ares...?"

lol, true. But I left the Bible/religion portion of the argument to those better versed than I am.

kkbe said:
Oh boy.

Just read through this thread after reading about Trump's latest tweets on Comey and McCabe. My cheeks are hot. I have a headache. That persistent knot in my gut just got bigger and it's starting to twist again. What kind of country do we live in, huh? What kind of country do we want to live in?

This is uncomfortable, to say the least. And scary. Kind of hopeless-feeling and yeah, feelings do matter right now. How we feel about this tenuous position in which we have placed ourselves through anger, greed, short-sightedness, fear, apathy. . .

Democracy is a fragile construct, easily corrupted. The fact that so many voted for, and continue to support, a man like Trump says a lot about the current mindset of this country. The fact that the majority of the GOP is more interested in keeping, than doing, their jobs, speaks volumes. The idea that the man seated in the White House gets his "facts" from Fox News and his jollies from mockery, that he has no clue of the magnitude of damage he is doing or worse, that he does--

I'm of two minds right now. The first is hopeful. Young people are finding their voices. Women are raising theirs. People are voting with their conscience, voting out the status quo. With every tweet, I have to believe another group of people reached that tipping point and are ready to declare, finally, Enough is enough.

But with every new day comes a new assault on my sensibilities; a new assault on the poor and the marginalized, on our natural resources, on freedoms, ethics, tolerance for others. Everything good seems to be eroding and to top it off, there's that underlying sense of darkness encroaching and danger lurking from within this country, as well as without. Even the greatest empires have fallen. We, too, could go that route if we continue our present course, especially if we give in to apathy and complacency, or if we discard decency and honor. The question: What kind of country do we want to live in? may soon be moot.

No wonder I have a headache.

I am not feeling particularly hopeful. I don't think we can pretend to ask what kind of country we want to live in until people stop pretending this is a shock, and "this isn't us."

Roxxsmom said:
Or what gun would Jesus pack?

Once upon a time I had a water gun where the barrel was shaped like a dolphin...

ShaunHorton · Mar 18, 2018

CWatts said:
What is good for? Absolutely nothing.

But it can be fun to reply to that outrageous "god-given guns" argument by deadpaning "So, you worship Ares...?"

I like to reply with. "So why didn't God give the Isrealites AR-15's to fight back against their oppressors? Why did they have to wander the desert instead?"

She_wulf · Mar 18, 2018

anyone work this out yet...

1. Sessions fired McCabe
2. Sessions potentially violated recusal when he did this. Someone is bound to notice.
3. Rhetoric against Sessions is trending pretty high in the bot infected threads on Twitter.
4. Say Sessions is removed, clearing the way for someone more "loyal" to Trump gets placed as AG
5. Rosenstein is fired by the replacement
6. new appointee, "loyal" takes Rosenstein's role, fires Mueller.

...

Snitchcat · Mar 19, 2018

She_wulf said:
anyone work this out yet...

1. Sessions fired McCabe
2. Sessions potentially violated recusal when he did this. Someone is bound to notice.
3. Rhetoric against Sessions is trending pretty high in the bot infected threads on Twitter.
4. Say Sessions is removed, clearing the way for someone more "loyal" to Trump gets placed as AG
5. Rosenstein is fired by the replacement
6. new appointee, "loyal" takes Rosenstein's role, fires Mueller.

...

If they have, they're not saying anything, 'cos it's a terrifying reality.

And I say that as someone who is distant to all of this.

Alessandra Kelley · Mar 19, 2018

ap123 said:
Now now, I can't be paranoid--I'm pretty sure she meant me, all my filthy leftie hippie friends, and my conservative friend who was the OP. &#55357;&#56841;

Ah, the vagaries of the English language.

I actually did mean the plural "your" as in "everybody's feelings except my own" are irrelevant.

ShaunHorton · Mar 19, 2018

She_wulf said:
anyone work this out yet...

1. Sessions fired McCabe
2. Sessions potentially violated recusal when he did this. Someone is bound to notice.
3. Rhetoric against Sessions is trending pretty high in the bot infected threads on Twitter.
4. Say Sessions is removed, clearing the way for someone more "loyal" to Trump gets placed as AG
5. Rosenstein is fired by the replacement
6. new appointee, "loyal" takes Rosenstein's role, fires Mueller.

...

Yeah, we are aware. Skipping #2, that's likely been the plan for quite some time now. And while I'm sure Trump would love to fire Mueller at any point, he's probably been made well aware of the firestorm that would bring down on him, so we're waiting to see what it actually is that Mueller goes for the is actually Trump's 'red line'. (Previously, Trump tried to say that would be if Mueller started digging into his finances, but we now have them digging into the Trump Organization, and while the blockhead is tweeting about him, it doesn't look like he's hit that tipping point yet.)

I think someone brought up the boiling frog analogy. I can't help but wonder if Mueller might be trying to pull that on Trump. Make public all the little things he goes after one at a time, which are turning up the heat, but in increments Trump doesn't actually notice, so that when it's time for the big shit to hit the fan, it's already too late for Trump to do anything. That would be nice. And Mueller IS that smart.

Alessandra Kelley · Mar 19, 2018

Trump claims McCabe did not write any memos

This is rich coming from a man who neither writes nor reads anything.

Along with every other form of writing, he seems to have no idea how memos work.

cbenoi1 · Mar 19, 2018

ShaunHorton said:
I think someone brought up the boiling frog analogy. I can't help but wonder if Mueller might be trying to pull that on Trump.

Mueller is like a cat playing with its food. The more Trump is destabilized, the more he lies and makes things up, which is exactly where Mueller wants him. Because the proof is in the pudding.

I'm willing to bet Mueller will schedule an interview with Trump and indict Kushner and Jr the day prior. Trump will go bonkers and Mueller will have a field day.

-cb

Larry M · Mar 19, 2018

cbenoi1 said:
Mueller is like a cat playing with its food. The more Trump is destabilized, the more he lies and makes things up, which is exactly where Mueller wants him. Because the proof is in the pudding.

I'm willing to bet Mueller will schedule an interview with Trump and indict Kushner and Jr the day prior. Trump will go bonkers and Mueller will have a field day.

-cb

I don't believe that Mueller is necessarily "gunning" for anyone. I think it is far more likely that as a lawyer and prosecutor, he is appalled by what he has found and expects to find in the evidence. I believe he feels he is bound and compelled by duty to pursue the evidence where it leads, regardless of the possible "targets."

For sure, he is using his experience at getting witnesses to do what he needs them to do in pursuit of people he believes to have committed crimes, and in his pursuit of the truth. If he ends up bagging 45 and family, it's part of his job as a professional who is working for the people of the United States.

I don't know him, but my guess is that he takes no pleasure in what he is doing. As much as I despise 45, his crime family, and associates (that would be a LOT), I believe that Mueller is fully capable of doing his job without prejudice.

Just my opinion.

MaeZe · Mar 19, 2018

cbenoi1 said:
Mueller is like a cat playing with its food. The more Trump is destabilized, the more he lies and makes things up, which is exactly where Mueller wants him. Because the proof is in the pudding.

I'm willing to bet Mueller will schedule an interview with Trump and indict Kushner and Jr the day prior. Trump will go bonkers and Mueller will have a field day.

-cb

That would be interesting. But I don't want any of them indicted until Trump can no longer pardon them.

Of course, dividing up the criminal enterprise indictments... Charge those peons with collusion, let Trump pardon them. But hold back all the financial crimes, turn that over to the relevant prosecutors to continue the investigation into crimes Trump cannot pardon because they are state charges, or hold off on Federal charges until Trump is out unless there are statutes of limitation.

MaeZe · Mar 19, 2018

Larry M said:
I don't believe that Mueller is necessarily "gunning" for anyone. I think it is far more likely that as a lawyer and prosecutor, he is appalled by what he has found and expects to find in the evidence. I believe he feels he is bound and compelled by duty to pursue the evidence where it leads, regardless of the possible "targets."

For sure, he is using his experience at getting witnesses to do what he needs them to do in pursuit of people he believes to have committed crimes, and in his pursuit of the truth. If he ends up bagging 45 and family, it's part of his job as a professional who is working for the people of the United States.

I don't know him, but my guess is that he takes no pleasure in what he is doing. As much as I despise 45, his crime family, and associates (that would be a LOT), I believe that Mueller is fully capable of doing his job without prejudice.

Just my opinion.

I hope there is a bit of patriotism and protecting the Constitution in there somewhere.

Larry M · Mar 19, 2018

MaeZe said:
I hope there is a bit of patriotism and protecting the Constitution in there somewhere.

I covered that part in my post.

cbenoi1 · Mar 19, 2018

Larry M said:
I don't believe that Mueller is necessarily "gunning" for anyone.

I think he is. It's a white collar crime, so there is no blood or casings to be found. I think he found enough evidence to point to crimes but not enough for a solid conviction, hence the tactics to indict Manafort, Gates, Flynn, et al in a succession of 'throwing people under the bus' to obtain more evidence on the next guy in line. You have to remember we're talking about POTUS here, and Trumpie can get information at any time. The tip-toeing is crucial.

-cb

blacbird · Mar 19, 2018

cbenoi1 said:
I think he is. It's a white collar crime, so there is no blood or casings to be found. I think he found enough evidence to point to crimes but not enough for a solid conviction, hence the tactics to indict Manafort, Gates, Flynn, et al in a succession of 'throwing people under the bus' to obtain more evidence on the next guy in line. You have to remember we're talking about POTUS here, and Trumpie can get information at any time. The tip-toeing is crucial.

-cb

I think Mueller has found more than enough to get a conviction on Manafort, in particular. Flynn has already plead guilty, and by all accounts Gates and Papadopoulos are cooperating with Mueller. Mueller was savvy enough to go after the money trail, which has thoroughly undermined Trump's blather last year about his finances being a red-line Mueller should not cross. He has Manafort on money laundering and bank fraud charges, a bunch of 'em. Now he has subpoenaed the financial records of the Trump Foundation, which has long been used by Bone Spurs as a cash cow for personal purposes. That subpoena is a direct step toward getting Trump's personal financial records, for comparative purposes, to see just how the money has flowed. And it has made it even more problematical for Trump to fire Mueller.

Anybody still wonder why Spurs won't release his tax returns?

caw

ShaunHorton · Mar 20, 2018

I think the thing is, unless the case is medically sterile-levels of airtight, the GOP won't lift a finger against Trump no matter what evidence is brought forth. So likely, Mueller is making sure every i is dotted and every T crossed, as opposed to toying with Trump or anything like that. In addition, there is the added hope that the democrats can take back the House, the Senate, or even both come November, in which case it'll be open-season on practically the entire Trump administration, so part of it may be that Mueller is making sure the investigation has enough steam behind it that it can't be stopped while keeping the pace low enough to see the lay of the land after the elections.

ap123 · Mar 20, 2018

ShaunHorton said:
I think the thing is, unless the case is medically sterile-levels of airtight, the GOP won't lift a finger against Trump no matter what evidence is brought forth. So likely, Mueller is making sure every i is dotted and every T crossed, as opposed to toying with Trump or anything like that. In addition, there is the added hope that the democrats can take back the House, the Senate, or even both come November, in which case it'll be open-season on practically the entire Trump administration, so part of it may be that Mueller is making sure the investigation has enough steam behind it that it can't be stopped while keeping the pace low enough to see the lay of the land after the elections.

This, all of this. It's my hope, anyway. Not just because I don't want 45&co to get away with it, but because I think it is important that there be no doubt in any rational person's mind, with indisputable facts and evidence.

Larry M · Mar 20, 2018

cbenoi1 said:
I think he is. It's a white collar crime, so there is no blood or casings to be found. I think he found enough evidence to point to crimes but not enough for a solid conviction, hence the tactics to indict Manafort, Gates, Flynn, et al in a succession of 'throwing people under the bus' to obtain more evidence on the next guy in line. You have to remember we're talking about POTUS here, and Trumpie can get information at any time. The tip-toeing is crucial.

-cb

I'm not denying any of that.

I just think it's a mistake that some are making (especially on Twitter), to characterize Mueller as fire-breathing, hell bent on destroying Trump.

He's been asked to investigate and possibly bring down the President of the U.S. That is a sobering thought for anyone, regardless of who the president it.

ShaunHorton said:
I think the thing is, unless the case is medically sterile-levels of airtight, the GOP won't lift a finger against Trump no matter what evidence is brought forth. So likely, Mueller is making sure every i is dotted and every T crossed, as opposed to toying with Trump or anything like that. In addition, there is the added hope that the democrats can take back the House, the Senate, or even both come November, in which case it'll be open-season on practically the entire Trump administration, so part of it may be that Mueller is making sure the investigation has enough steam behind it that it can't be stopped while keeping the pace low enough to see the lay of the land after the elections.

Yes, absolutely.

ElaineA · Mar 20, 2018

ap123 said:
This, all of this. It's my hope, anyway. Not just because I don't want 45&co to get away with it, but because I think it is important that there be no doubt in any rational person's mind, with indisputable facts and evidence.

Oh, wait, you said *rational* person's mind. Sorry, I take back the laughter.

The more I see about this Cambridge Analytica story, and knowing that yesterday, as news of the tripwire bombing in Austin unleashed a wave of Russian Bot activity meant to stoke fear and widen racial divides, it's crystal clear the intent is to drive a wedge in our country that can't be removed. Until Fox news stops being a propaganda outlet willing to spread objective untruths, until Big Tech comes under stricter regulation, there will not be a point in the present where a vast majority of this country will look at the Mueller investigation and acknowledge that it is fact-based, no matter the evidence at the end. Maybe at some point in the future, but not now. Too many people would have to admit they'd been brain-washed and that, from a psychological perspective, is a nearly impossible hurdle in real-time. Short of war, or installation of a destructive authoritarian regime, that is.

ap123 · Mar 20, 2018

ElaineA said:
Oh, wait, you said *rational* person's mind. Sorry, I take back the laughter.

The more I see about this Cambridge Analytica story, and knowing that yesterday, as news of the tripwire bombing in Austin unleashed a wave of Russian Bot activity meant to stoke fear and widen racial divides, it's crystal clear the intent is to drive a wedge in our country that can't be removed. Until Fox news stops being a propaganda outlet willing to spread objective untruths, until Big Tech comes under stricter regulation, there will not be a point in the present where a vast majority of this country will look at the Mueller investigation and acknowledge that it is fact-based, no matter the evidence at the end. Maybe at some point in the future, but not now. Too many people would have to admit they'd been brain-washed and that, from a psychological perspective, is a nearly impossible hurdle in real-time. Short of war, or installation of a destructive authoritarian regime, that is.

It's true, rationality is in short supply these days. :tongue

I was actually thinking more about the future--hopefully near, and even more hopefully that the US will be a democracy in the future, going back to what I said the other day. If there is any hope/possibility, it will be rooted in changes to actual laws and concrete regulations/requirements, not norms or gentleman's agreements. Leaving the irrational to the side (his supporters are going to champion him and hate on everyone else with their dying breath), I think without the clear and concrete proof, a significant number of relatively rational people will balk at putting those laws in place, arguing semantics, the definition of democracy vs republic, unlimited free speech, and of course, that old favorite, tradition and history. The electoral college being left in place after the Bush debacle comes to mind as an example. I could be wrong--and it might all be a moot point--but that's what I'm thinking.

dawinsor · Mar 20, 2018

Re McCabe's memos, I have a friend who used to be an agent. They are taught to write these memos about important encounters, to make sure the date they're written can be verified, and to leave copies with others. That's because contemporaneous memos are admissible in court and agents testify with some regularity. Trump is an idiot. But you knew that.

My fear is that Republicans in congress will send Mueller the equivalent of thoughts and prayers and then continue with their smash and grab activities.

My hope is that at least one of the sealed indictments the Mueller grand jury has issued has Trump's name on it, in a kind of dead-man switch in case Mueller is fired.

McCabe Fired

ap123

Twitching

ShaunHorton

AW's resident Velociraptor

She_wulf

that's me

Snitchcat

Dragon-kitty.

Alessandra Kelley

Sophipygian

ShaunHorton

AW's resident Velociraptor

Alessandra Kelley

Sophipygian

cbenoi1

Larry M

MaeZe

MaeZe

Larry M

cbenoi1

blacbird

ShaunHorton

AW's resident Velociraptor

ap123

Twitching

Larry M

ElaineA

All about that action, boss.

ap123

Twitching

dawinsor

Dorothy A. Winsor