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Backstory Dump vs Story propulsion

mccardey

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Done too early or too much they come across as ham fisted and jolty (as in jolting out of the story flow). Kept to a minimum and done in a way that is congruent with the narrative, they can give the reader some valuable insight at the appropriate time, which enhances the reading experience.
But then it wouldn't be a dump. It would be part of the story. I think dump is usually taken to be less than positive.
 

Harlequin

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Hrm. I'd say some of the passages in Too Like the Lightning are out-and-out, brazen-balls info dumps. See her passage on the history of the word "sensayer".

But in first person I really do believe you can get away with this, especially if the reader is the direct audience to whom the narrator is actively explaining the world.
 

mccardey

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Hrm. I'd say some of the passages in Too Like the Lightning are out-and-out, brazen-balls info dumps. See her passage on the history of the word "sensayer".

But in first person I really do believe you can get away with this, especially if the reader is the direct audience to whom the narrator is actively explaining the world.
Perhaps it depends on genre? But since genre wasn't mentioned in the OP or the thread title, it would be risk to assume a genre and respond accordingly. In a basic writing thread, I'd still say dumps are not what you want.
 

Harlequin

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Yes, well, the asides that Mycroft gives in TLTL are very an in character thing. And yes, in a less complex setting they'd perhaps be inexcusable.

Ada Palmer herself talks about the freedom first person gave her to do that, and that if the novel had been in third she'd have needed more locations and events to cover the same ground.
 

mccardey

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Yes, well, the asides that Mycroft gives in TLTL are very an in character thing. And yes, in a less complex setting they'd perhaps be inexcusable.

Ada Palmer herself talks about the freedom first person gave her to do that, and that if the novel had been in third she'd have needed more locations and events to cover the same ground.
I'd have to read TLTL before I could comment on it - though I'm sure you're right. But is it basic writing advice, or is it more complex than that?

ETA: Also - are you recommending? Will take recommendations for good stuff just now. I'm on sub and at a loose end. Obvsly.
 

Harlequin

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I don't know what you like, so I don't know if I should recommend i... but in general, yeah, I think it's one of the best SF books to come out in about a decade. Subjective opinion and all that :)

It would drive a lot of critters nuts, I imagine. You'll know the sensayer scene when you see it, if you do read it.


I think my point far as info dumps go, is that (like everything) you really can get away with whatever you wish providing you do it in an interesting way. The fundamental problem with info dumps isn't that they're full of information, but that they're supremely boring. If you can make it interesting, then by all means, hit me with some knowledge. :cool:


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Sorry, couldn't resist. Anyways. I've really felt the difference, moving from close third in first project to first person in second project. The freedom to just tell information is wonderful, and it's much easier to do in first because you have ways of making that conveyance interesting. And it can be fully in POV, whereas info dumps tend to break POV in third (another problem with them).
 

shrimpsdad

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If it's interesting, it's not a "dump." If it's something the reader WANTS to know at a certain point, it's not a "dump." But it takes a good deal of skill to make long sections of exposition interesting. It's hard to know exactly where to place exposition, not too soon or too late, just when the reader is beginning to wonder about the information.

I've seen it done lots of times. Most often in sci-fi, also in historicals. Some kinds of mystery writing I've seen it done well, especially police procedurals where readers expect it and want it, as they follow along trying to figure out how and why someone committed a crime.

Thank you. That was very helpful. I guess there is a time and place for everything and if the information is so gripping you cannot put the book down then a dump can be forgiven. After all, isn't that the goal. If you cannot put the book down it's a good read if even for that one scene.
I do understand what all of you have expressed. 99% of the time avoid a dump.
 

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I don't know what you like, so I don't know if I should recommend i... but in general, yeah, I think it's one of the best SF books to come out in about a decade. Subjective opinion and all that :)

It would drive a lot of critters nuts, I imagine. You'll know the sensayer scene when you see it, if you do read it.


I think my point far as info dumps go, is that (like everything) you really can get away with whatever you wish providing you do it in an interesting way. The fundamental problem with info dumps isn't that they're full of information, but that they're supremely boring. If you can make it interesting, then by all means, hit me with some knowledge. :cool:


18769442.jpg



Sorry, couldn't resist. Anyways. I've really felt the difference, moving from close third in first project to first person in second project. The freedom to just tell information is wonderful, and it's much easier to do in first because you have ways of making that conveyance interesting. And it can be fully in POV, whereas info dumps tend to break POV in third (another problem with them).

What are the downside to first person? If I am having so much trouble with close third why not rewrite in first person.
 

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What are the downside to first person? If I am having so much trouble with close third why not rewrite in first person.

I read a John Grisham book recently in first person and as I recall that is a departure for him. It struck me as odd. I haven't read all of his books but something seemed off. It wasn't his usual flow.
 

Harlequin

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The only downside is if it doesn't fit the story you want to tell.

I tend to prefer multi POV for reading and writing, and that doesn't work as well in first person. I also quite like a little bit of distance in my narrative; sometimes first is too close. (Imagine if Wizards of Earthsea had been told in first; no no no no!)
 

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The only downside is if it doesn't fit the story you want to tell.

This. I almost always write in third, but my current WIP is in first, because it needs to be.

As a writer, you're controlling (up to a point!) how your reader experiences your story. IMHO third is good for portraying cinema-like experiences; as Harlequin points out, first is more immersive. It really depends on what kind of tone you're going for.
 

Barbara R.

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When does a flashback become a backstory dump? Isn't that what a flashback is. It is a memory of a character. Naturally, it provides information but at what point does it become a dump. I know many will say is it pushing the story driving the character. In this circumstance yes. We as the reader need to know of the character's past. It seems like a fine line but maybe there is a clear way to identify the difference.

A flashback is the furthest thing from an info dump. A flashback is an actual scene, with all the elements of a scene: a bit of action set in a specific time (before the start of the story) and place, not a summary, but something you could actually film without voiceover. An info dump is a narrative summary of past events, not an actual scene. Flashbacks are useful but disruptive to the flow of the novel, since you're jerking readers out of the here-and-now of the story and sending them back in time. So it's usually best to use them sparingly. My rule of thumb is to use flashbacks for material that takes place before the story begins and is essential for an understanding of the character and story. For example, the protagonist in one of my books is a widow whose husband was killed in a subway mugging. That trauma, which she witnessed, is central to the character, but it took place before the story begins. About halfway through the novel, when the character is on a subway (because you need something to trigger the flashback), there's a flashback to her husband's murder. It's the only one in the book, because it's the only one that was needed.

If I'd treated it as narrative, I'd have written something like "Crow was actually there the day her husband died. It happened on the subway, an attempted robbery that turned into murder when her husband resisted." Does that get your heart beating fast? Didn't think so. Some things need to be shown, not told.

And even that bit of narrative doesn't qualify as an info dump---it's too short. Info dumps are detested because they stop the story in its tracks with a long-winded exposition of backstory that readers often don't need to know. What they do need to know should be conveyed more gracefully and gradually: cut up into little bits and inserted into existing scenes.

Hope that helps!
 
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shrimpsdad

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A flashback is the furthest thing from an info dump. A flashback is an actual scene, with all the elements of a scene: a bit of action set in a specific time (before the start of the story) and place, not a summary, but something you could actually film without voiceover. An info dump is a narrative summary of past events, not an actual scene. Flashbacks are useful but disruptive to the flow of the novel, since you're jerking readers out of the here-and-now of the story and sending them back in time. So it's usually best to use them sparingly. My rule of thumb is to use flashbacks for material that takes place before the story begins and is essential for an understanding of the character and story. For example, the protagonist in one of my books is a widow whose husband was killed in a subway mugging. That trauma, which she witnessed, is central to the character, but it took place before the story begins. About halfway through the novel, when the character is on a subway (because you need something to trigger the flashback), there's a flashback to her husband's murder. It's the only one in the book, because it's the only one that was needed.

If I'd treated it as narrative, I'd have written something like "Crow was actually there the day her husband died. It happened on the subway, an attempted robbery that turned into murder when her husband resisted." Does that get your heart beating fast? Didn't think so. Some things need to be shown, not told.

And even that bit of narrative doesn't qualify as an info dump---it's too short. Info dumps are detested because they stop the story in its tracks with a long-winded exposition of backstory that readers often don't need to know. What they do need to know should be conveyed more gracefully and gradually: cut up into little bits and inserted into existing scenes.

Hope that helps!

That helps a lot. Thank you. I have quite a few flashbacks and I would love to share them @SYW but I was asked to wait a little while before posting them because I reached 50 posts to fast. So I am respecting the MOD and waiting. Sounds like a good excuse to get out of the scary feedback. I am actually excited to share my work. I know it will get banged up, but it is okay I actually like the brutal honest feedback. When a crit pulls punches sometimes I don't completely understand what is trying to be conveyed and then I make the mistake again. For example, someone just recently completely assaulted me with crit over my use of apostrophies. I GOT IT and did some quick study on apostrophes not to make that mistake again. If he was gentle I may not have truly understood how bad my apostrophes were.
 

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shrimpsdad said:
What are the downside to first person? If I am having so much trouble with close third why not rewrite in first person.

shrimpsdad, writing a few of your scenes in first person might be a good exercise for you to get a better handle on limited third person. Both first and limited third require you to put yourself in the head of the narrator (or POV character), to focus on his or her perceptions and not include things that he or she cannot possibly be aware of. But that focus might come more naturally in first person.

First and close third are similar in that in both cases you are seeing the world through the perceptions of one character, closely and consistently. But using “I” both helps you identify with the POV character, and helps distinguish her in your mind and in the narrative from the other characters who are always “he” or “she”. Trying first person for a while might make it help you nail down what it means to tell a story through a single character’s limited perspective.
 
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Laer Carroll

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Flashbacks are tricky, at least for me. I have to figure where to place them so they add grace to the story. I have to decide how much to include: all of a long scene, or just a part of it.

One way I've see it done (of many ways) is as several short little bits from a long scene, a sort of mosaic of a timeline. It's the literary version of cinematic quick takes from a scene. These often suggest frenetic action. Or just the opposite, suggesting a long smooth flow of action without getting into too much detail and so becoming boring.

I've also seen flashbacks WITHIN flashbacks. One master of doing this well was sci-fi author James H. Schmitz. Examining how he did it I decided part of their success was how well he transitioned into and out of the flashback, so that I did not get the timeline confused. Another part was their placement.
 

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Curlz, that Han Solo ref was great. Even though I may love the backstory I guess it is not needed. Surely not seven pages worth.
Coming to this late, but "seven pages worth"? I am trying to think of what needs that much explaining, and I'm coming up with 'not much'. Keep in mind the 'flash' in flashback. Short and sweet.
 

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I was over 150k into a novel when I decided the huge amount of backstory filling its pages warranted a book of its own. When I finished writing it, instead of going back to the original, I wrote two other books. Only now am I finishing up the one I decided to split.
 

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So much of what is necessary depends on the story. I recently read a book that alternated chapters, one in the present, one in the past. Backstory made up at least a quarter of the novel. But the flashbacks weren't infodumps - they were written like all the other scenes. The effect was akin to following two different POVs, but one was in the past and one was in the present.

The other important thing to note was the interplay of the flashbacks with the present timeline: each nugget of recollection from the past changed the context of the present struggle, which made it supremely interesting.

Asking yourself whether or not a massive backstory fares better as a separate book is an important question, though.
 
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With regards to first versus third, you can try writing passages out in both and see what feels most natural. Also be sure to check out if there are standard conventions for the genre you are writing in and how commonly they are broken.
 

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Flashbacks are tricky, at least for me. I have to figure where to place them so they add grace to the story. I have to decide how much to include: all of a long scene, or just a part of it.

One way I've see it done (of many ways) is as several short little bits from a long scene, a sort of mosaic of a timeline. It's the literary version of cinematic quick takes from a scene. These often suggest frenetic action. Or just the opposite, suggesting a long smooth flow of action without getting into too much detail and so becoming boring.

I've also seen flashbacks WITHIN flashbacks. One master of doing this well was sci-fi author James H. Schmitz. Examining how he did it I decided part of their success was how well he transitioned into and out of the flashback, so that I did not get the timeline confused. Another part was their placement.

Hello Laer Carroll,
I enjoyed your imput. I will most definitely read some of Schmitz. A flashback within in a flashback. Sounds really fun to read. I truly enjoy flashbacks because the story departs. I know I am in the minority on this, but it keeps me asking questions about the characters past and I am always anticipating another flashback that I know will come because the story is too far along without me as the reader understanding how the character got to that place in the story.
 

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I'm not sure how much of a good idea this is; since I haven't submitted anything here for serious critting that uses this technique.

...but the way I got around this, was having the MC "trail off in his thoughts" and then it just slips right into an info dump, like he's mind wandering about life.
Paragraph works its way though, and then BANG! Back to reality, and he even might reprimand himself for getting so absorbed/distracted by pointless thoughts.

Mind you, this only really works for one character, because the whole thing is a parable for ADHD, which I am describing with a professional degree of accuracy. A bit of a short-circuit, but I'll happily use it :)
 

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shrimpsdad, writing a few of your scenes in first person might be a good exercise for you to get a better handle on limited third person. Both first and limited third require you to put yourself in the head of the narrator (or POV character), to focus on his or her perceptions and not include things that he or she cannot possibly be aware of. But that focus might come more naturally in first person.

First and close third are similar in that in both cases you are seeing the world through the perceptions of one character, closely and consistently. But using “I” both helps you identify with the POV character, and helps distinguish her in your mind and in the narrative from the other characters who are always “he” or “she”. Trying first person for a while might make it help you nail down what it means to tell a story through a single character’s limited perspective.

Would it be acceptable to write the MC in first person and the two other big characters in limited third person. I have tried what Lakey suggested and found that I can write the main character much better in first person, but I do not know how I should handle the other characters.
 

Harlequin

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It's not more or less acceptable, it's what suits the story.

I've mixed first and third (the first person narrator is 'narrating' the third person bits). Some published books do (Gone Girl; third person following husband, first person is wife's diary). It depends what you're doing and why.
 

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Would it be acceptable to write the MC in first person and the two other big characters in limited third person. I have tried what Lakey suggested and found that I can write the main character much better in first person, but I do not know how I should handle the other characters.

Yes, it's acceptable. I've seen that done.
 

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What are the downside to first person? If I am having so much trouble with close third why not rewrite in first person.

Jonathan Franzen (yeah, I know, he seems like a jerk) said: Write in the third person unless a *really distinctive first-person voice *offers itself irresistibly.

I think that's pretty good advice. First person falls on its face when the character doesn't have a unique voice. Even The Great Gatsby, which is usually held as an example of a purposefully action-less, bland POV character, uses its first chapter mainly to set up Nick's voice--because even though Nick isn't the main focus, he still needs a unique voice for the book to work.