KDP Erotica/Adult/Dungeon Categories.. what?

13ookI)ragon

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Alright.. so..
I found out just the other day that KDP is actually really strict about the romance they publish and where things go. I for one, don't know anything about that. Anything.
Stupid questions are ahead, please provide links to other threads where applicable or just answering the questions are okay. I may just have this thread for all sorts of questions for these categories.. if allowed..

When i get books on KDP I almost always search for Free Romances-2.99 romances and the in between. I have found books of every genre, dinosaur erotica, non-con, straight up rape scenes that are pretty.. well harsh. With just that simple search. But now I am finding articles that say Don't put your book in Adult or How do I keep my erotica out of adult/dungeon categories? Me, i'm like.. um well if it is erotica.. it should be adult..? should it not?
What is the problem with being put into the adult or dungeon, if your book is part of those genres?
How do you find information ON these categories? I am pretty bad at figuring things out internet wise. i tried searching the actual amazon site, but I can't find any information actually on anything like Dungeon category. I try searching just in my search bar and I get a bunch of articles of how to try and keep it out of said categories but nothing actually about them.
I have found numerous articles about how a woman saying no when being pressured instantly put them into the adult/dungeon category and situations like that. Which pretty much worries me that if they are so harsh on restrictions of that sort, my sort of work will never be published on kdp. I write scenes of almost rape of either sex, but they fight back and beat the heck out of the abuser.
I have seen people say, just don't keyword it like that.
Do you know how much i hate when I pick up a historical that says HEA and the chick dies from a crazy rape scene at the end? Even if my stuff is lighter, i would not want to keyword it under an HEA if there is no actual HEA, I wouldn't want to not keyword something and get a bunch of people unhappy because there were no disclaimers.

So I kinda just ranted with some questions tossed in.
Also does there happen to be a thread somewhere with definitions of the abbreviations? Like Dark-rom (obviously dark romance) but what that and all these other terms mean?
 

blackcat777

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First of all, OP: what are you writing? Is it Romance?

My short explanation: If you are writing anything other than erotica, as long as your title/blurb/cover are clean, you will be fine.

If you are writing erotica, there are a few more things to consider.

The long answer:

Amazon has special rules for erotica, and special rules for book covers. Rules for book covers apply to both erotica and non-erotica.

Also, keep in mind, Amazon's flagging system is flawed in a lot of ways, so some people disregard all the rules and are never penalized. The risk is being permanently banned from Amazon, which is a huge sales platform. Trade published books aren't subject to the same gatekeeping as indie books on Amazon. I don't recommend flouting the rules, but I mention this because you will encounter books out there that have gone undetected (for now), and you may wonder, "Why can't I do that? They did it!" IMHO, ignore everyone else, cross your i's and dot your t's.

If you book is flagged--justly or unjustly (like, you wrote a factual book about race cars and it was thrown in the dungeon)--sometimes getting the book out can be a NIGHTMARE, so I highly, highly recommend following the guidelines.

Getting support that is helpful is a total crap shoot if your book was slapped in the dungeon and you want to get it out. Amazon's official definition is "what we deem obscene is about what you would expect." They do not EXPLAIN this to authors if you ask them about it, and the interpretation varies from person to person.

A book that is dungeoned won't come up in the searches and will effectively kill sales.

In avoiding the dungeon:

1) Your book cover, title, and blurb must be squeaky clean. The rationale for this is that books come up in searches available to all ages. No nudity on the cover. (You should be looking at covers within your subgenre to see what types of images are trending, headless shirtless men, girls in leather pants with lightning and flowing hair, etc., because a professional cover suited to your genre is the best sales tool you have). No dirty words in the blurbs (though some books fly under the radar). No dirty words in the title. Just imagine your book could be for sale on a shelf at Wal Mart and families with kids wouldn't scream when walking by.

*Please understand the *outside presentation* has nothing to do with the inner content of the manuscript itself, in terms of explicitness. There was a really famous book called Cum For Bigfoot that was flagged, and was released from the dungeon when the title was switched to Moan For Bigfoot. The outer packaging is all about superficial cleanliness.

Non-erotica books that flout the title/cover/blurb guidelines can be dungeoned.

2) Understand Amazon's definition of erotica: sex for titillation. Any sex included in any book categorized as erotica will be considered for titillation.

3) Subjects that will be banned right out *in erotica* are minors (anyone under 18) having sex, bestiality (but shifters are okay because anthropomorphized), incest (pseudo incest with step relatives is allowed), rape.

Is the purpose of your book for people to get off? Put it in erotica. Is your book a genre book with spicy romance? Keep it in the genre.

Forced seduction romances are not banned. The Romance genre is not expressly "sex for titillation." Neither is horror, fantasy, etc. The subject of rape is allowed in other genres because it is considered "not for titillation."

Also, consider your readers. I have been pissed off lately in the search for erotic romance (as in, a book still containing the rules of a Romance), because lots of people shoehorn books incorrectly into other categories. From the perspective of targeting your marketing, passing one genre off as another to circumvent Amazon's rules will hurt your sales and make readers angry.

4) (IMHO) Stay wide and publish with Smashwords.

Smashwords Blog about this This link is insanely comprehensive and includes a chart with different publishers, and explicit content they WILL and WILL NOT publish.

5) On www.yasiv.com, you can enter your book's ASIN and see if it has been flagged as adult or not.

Selena Kitt has a blog entry about this, too.

tl;dr clean cover/title/blurb for any book and you'll be set. For erotica, no one under 18, no rape, no blood relations, no animals, party on.
 
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Maryn

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Hot damn, that was a good post!
 

veinglory

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Erotica is a genre, if your book is erotica, list it under this genre
Adult/Dungeoned is potentially legally obscene material that is not listed in search and so rarely gets bought, avoid this.
 

AVPPublishing

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Yes, the ADULT flag is definitely a killer and the use of it is, unfortunately, pretty darn subjective in erotica publishing. I've been publishing erotica on KDP on and off since 2011, but mostly the last two years or so.

A quick, easy way to check for this flag is on Aaron Shepard's 'Sales Rank Express' page. You can plug in an author's name or publishing company and all the titles will be listed, along with a big, red, capitalized 'ADULT' if so flagged. The site also does nifty free tracking of your ranking history as well!

Getting a title out of the dungeon can be fickle as well, but it can be done. From my experience (unscientific!), the 'review' process starts the same way a spam filter works. It parses your title and assesses a score (+1 for using the word 'daddy' more than 20 times, etc...I'm imagining.) If the score is low enough, someone may or may not look at the cover, then they pass it on. If you score high enough, I think it gets a live-person review. If they approve it, I'm imagining a checkbox at the bottom for 'adult'. Some use it and some don't.

I actually had a title flagged adult a while back, which is what made me notice that I'd submitted it with an old title (I'm a 'pantsing' writer, so sometimes by the end of the story the title doesn't make any sense :)) I edited the title, it was re-reviewed, published without the flag and it never came back. (Just to clarify, both titles were very benign, so I don't think it was the difference...the difference was the reviewer not clicking a box.)

TL;DR, keep your covers and blurbs relatively tame, don't push the limits of incest/PI and other Amazon-iffy subjects and you'll be fine.
 

ElaineA

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I'm seeing a flurry of tweets and blog posts about Amazon rank-stripping erotica and books with erotic content. Anyone who has had this happen and is a member of RWA, please report to them.

This Tymber Dalton blog post has a wealth of good links about what's going on, why, and some unintended consequence outcomes.

This Twitter thread has data and screenshots demonstrating what's going on.
 

Maryn

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Maybe I should just mimeograph my book, make it into a sort of pamphlet with a long-throated stapler, and advertise it in the back of seedy magazines, like explicit fiction used to be handled...
 

amergina

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The ranks seem to be back, say many.

But it's certainly something to keep your eyes on...
 

Maryn

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Don't tempt me. If I were not an utter idiot about things digital (not to mention cover art), I could totally see a co-op publishing venture in which like-minded AW erotica writers self-publish in various forms. I just wish I knew for sure whether I kept that old deep-throat (snicker!) stapler. I think so.

Maryn, who found it at a thrift shop and had to have it
 

gingerwoman

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What I'm wondering right now is if keywords can get your romance book moved to erotica or dungeoned. Google is not really helping me with this question.
 

gingerwoman

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I think you should go with your gut.
These two Samhain erotic romances I'm looking to re-release are very high level heat romances but they're a bunch of other things I can put them in categories too, such as they're paranormal, one is interracial romance, one is holiday romance etc... so as I've been told to avoid those other categories by other authors I wouldn't choose them, but I do wonder if just my keywords could get them them switched. I'm guessing it will be alright to have hot key words though?
 

louisecooksey

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The "erotica" tag can also hurt you on ACX, if you are going to go the audiobook route.

There are a *LOT* of narrators who won't do erotica but will gladly do those labeled romance even if in my mind they are erotica. Some narrators specialize in erotica, there are a few of us who have it in our repertoire along with other genres, but it seems to be a stigma.
 

Melty

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A few of my stories/ebooks got sent to the dungeon. It was mostly because my covers showed too much skin. "Breeders" "Impregnated" and such words are also frowned on (it implies non consensual sex, according to Amazon, though it's not true). It doesn't matter, they might be in the dungeon, but they still sell from time to time.

If you have enough stories out there, and an author profile, people will find the ones in the dungeon no matter what. I can't consider around 50 short stories having enough, however. I need to get into the hundreds!
 

Melty

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I tend to include 'college' before student, and never had a problem. However, if you go into high school - which some authors can get away with no problem - then I think they'll really go after you.

However, it's important to note that the big names can have underage and other things in their books (it's not meant to be erotic, just in there) and they have no problems whatsoever. However, just mentioning someone not even related to the plot in an erotica book is enough to get the book (well, many books) thrown at you.