Beta reading etiquette question

I totally know what you mean, Blackcat!

I was lucky enough to have you beta for me, and the whole thing was wonderful!!! I don't think you're doing anything wrong. I too wait on pins and needles when I hit send on my comments. (and I've also had people say nothing) I've also had people who were going to beta stop, or not do it, and also "ghost" on me. I'm actually one of those people who doesn't mind bad reviews, and if something bothered them and they didn't want to continue, I'd rather they say why so I can at least add their opinion to the others I receive.

My honest feeling is that those who don't reply probably weren't ready for the crit, and that is what it is.

Click to expand...

I think many times this is the case. I too try to be constructive in my comments. Even if all of that wasn't welcome, well, at least I caught some typos, LOL!!!

I do think it's bad form to not say thank-you, no matter what you thought. Even on some posts here, critters take a lot of time making comments and trying to help, and just recently, there was someone not only not being thankful, but attacking the critters. Bad form again.

As writers, and people, we are all different. We can only offer our own insights, and that's all. I'm always thankful for the help I get by readers and writers. I find the chats after the beta to be really helpful as well!!!

As in any art form, it's hard to develop a thick skin, and beta reading and receiving crits is a valuable way to get one, IMHO.

I don't have any advice though, as I have followed up and asked if they received the file and if they have any questions: *crickets*

Anyway, thanks again for beta-ing my story!!!

blackcat777 said:

Do you follow up with an author if they never acknowledge having received your beta notes?

I have done a massive amount of beta reading this year (full manuscripts) and I am surprised by the number of authors who don't acknowledge receipt of notes when I send them. Am I way off-base in being surprised by this?

Click to expand...

It's always a good idea to start with a limited read - say three chapters. This gives you and the other a chance to work out whether the fit is right.

If your bad beta experiences have happened here, I'd say yes it's surprising, and I'd follow up. You may have hit on some fly-byes - that can happen, though the 50-post rule tends to lessen that now. I've only had one bad beta experience here, but I tend to be pretty cautious about who I beta for - IRL as well. I don't take on work that I'm not pretty confident I'll enjoy.

Trying to think the best of people, is it possible that some people have read incidents of writers being nasty about reviews, or wanting full critiques from agents, and are afraid of appearing argumentative, or 'difficult'?

frimble3 said:

Trying to think the best of people, is it possible that some people have read incidents of writers being nasty about reviews, or wanting full critiques from agents, and are afraid of appearing argumentative, or 'difficult'?

Click to expand...

Still unacceptable, IMO. There is such a wide-ass line between thanking someone for taking the time and effort to beta read an entire MS and not wanting to appear argumentative. Nah, these people are just asshats and I have zero empathy for them.

OP, my experience beta-reading for AWers has been largely positive. I’ve lost count of how many people I’ve betaed, and only one disappeared into the ether when I sent her my notes. Here’s what I do:

1. I only offer to beta-read for people who have been around for a while, and who have a decent number of posts (above 200). This way, I know they’re actually participating instead of joining AW to take and disappear.

2. When it’s someone I don’t rly know well (as in, we’ve never personally chatted on threads or PMed each other), I ask to swap first chapters. If the experience isn’t good for whatever reason, I tell them I can’t do a full swap. Be ruthless when it comes to your time.

3. Come to think of it, I mostly beta read people outside of the Looking For Beta Readers forum. When I come across a poster I like (maybe I like her writing style, or she sounds rly intelligent in her posts), I tend to reach out by repping them. And after we rep each other for a bit, if she is writing something in a genre I like, I wld tell her to let me know if she ever needs betas.

And yes, I would follow up with those who didn’t reply. I would send something like, “Hey, just checking to make sure you got my critique?” And then write their names in my sekrit Burn Book.

Putputt said:

I would send something like, “Hey, just checking to make sure you got my critique?” And then write their names in my sekrit Burn Book.

Click to expand...

And don't forget the Ignore List is your friend...

blackcat, your question reminds me of this thread, which was the first place I heard an author express the opinion that critiquing/beta-reading was a gift more to the beta reader than the author. That's not my view, but it helped me to know that view was out there.

Personally? Yes, I hope that I'd acknowledge and thank every person who sent me beta notes. (And to any possible future beta readers... so far I have.)

On the flip side, though, if I sent beta notes and didn't hear back, I'd just let it go. I'd take it as a learning experience that gave me practice critiquing, and I'd let the lack of reply inform my future choices about beta-reading.

Like frimble suggested, trying to think the best of people, you just don't know what else a person has going on in their life. Especially if writing doesn't pay the bills, sometimes things come up, and writing tasks just have to be set aside.

Things do get lost in the ether though, and it would be a pity if somewhere a desperate writer was hoping to hear back. That can be fairly confidence-jolting for new writers - and leads to threads being started about what to do if you've sent your work to a beta and they've just ghosted you?

Blackcat is it a high number of people who don't respond? Or does it just feel like a high number (which I would absolutely understand if i got a second one...) One or two disappearances is just stuff that happens, I think - but a high number would have me checking my email settings for a start.

Since we have an entire forum dedicated to beta reading, I'm moving this thread there.

Please do not move about while the thread is in motion.

mccardey said:

Things do get lost in the ether though, and it would be a pity if somewhere a desperate writer was hoping to hear back. That can be fairly confidence-jolting for new writers - and leads to threads being started about what to do if you've sent your work to a beta and they've just ghosted you?

Blackcat is it a high number of people who don't respond? Or does it just feel like a high number (which I would absolutely understand if i got a second one...) One or two disappearances is just stuff that happens, I think - but a high number would have me checking my email settings for a start.

Click to expand...

Definitely! If it happens more than 3 times, I would definitely check.

A couple years ago, when I was in my third trimester, I started beta-reading for a friend. And...I...kept forgetting that I was beta-reading. I'd read a few chapters, make notes, close the doc...and completely forget it existed. My friend would nudge me and go, "Hey, how's the beta-reading going?" and I would go, "OMG I WAS BETA-READING YOUR BOOK AND I FORGOT!!!" I was really enjoying her MS, which was a high-octane, brilliant thriller, but my mind was basically a sieve by that point. So as her beta, I really appreciated her checking in. I told her to keep checking in with me everyday until I finished. I know, I know, I'm awful. Next time I will know better than to accept beta requests in my third trimester. But yes, check in (very gently and politely). If you still get crickets, check your email settings and move on.

ETA: How many times can one person say "check" in a single post...?

Yep, crits are a lot to digest. I for one take a few days to absorb what is said and respond about catches they'd made or what I'm not clear about. Unless I'm travelling, it's usually within a week or two. Life gets in the way or your computer decides to die and not go to heaven.

I tend to check people's post history before critting on SYW (which I don't do enough of), so given this is a bigger undertaking, getting a sense of the person before taking on a beta project is logical.

I'm pretty surprised at the poor response you have had. To me, beta readers are gold, especially those that give real feedback, not just tell you what they think you want to hear. If you are interested in humorous fantasy, stories from and animal's POV, or historical fantasy, drop me a line because you'd be exactly the sort of reader I'd want

I got beta notes back from a batch of people, and I responded as soon as I got the emails - before reading the notes - with a "got your notes, thank you so much for the time, blah blah blah." Even if the notes are shit (which they weren't) I do appreciate the time they spent.

I beta'd a whole novel for a person - I had done a few chapters first to see if she liked my crit style. She responded with an OMG THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I NEED so I agreed to beta the whole novel. I spent a crapload of time on it and sent her my notes... radio silence. I waited a few days and emailed to ask if she got the file. She responded with a terse "Got it." It was annoying. I mean, my comments are strictly take it or leave it - I'm not going to be offended or get my feelings hurt if you reject 100% of my responses. But sheesh, I spent all that time for your benefit, you can let me know you got the file.

I totally second everything Putputt said upthread.

Checking back with people if you haven't heard from them in a while is a good idea. I've lost track of beta reads, too, especially when there's a queue. Just too many plates to juggle between all the writing stuff and real life.

Some people can't take crit, and it sucks to be them. (We can't get better if we can't take feedback.) All we can do is be glad we're not them, for whatever reason--and remember that we never know what challenges they've faced in their lives to even have come this far. It might be stuff that would bring me to my knees. And the story's not over. Hopefully, they'll get to a better place and be able to take critique.

This actually happened to me once. One gal I read for told me about the whole process for her. When she got my critique, she said she cried for days. She knew she couldn't write--I was telling her all her worst fears were true.

I'm never cruel, but I can be blunt. If it's not working, it's not--and she'd written a thriller with a slow, navel-gazing intro. I left her with some links and videos on the "action prologue" as one writer calls it, and my best advice to help her story conform to genre expectations.

When she wrote me, maybe a month later, she told me all the earlier stuff, and she also said that after she got over the initial shock of the critique, she started to see my points. She looked up what an action prologue was (really, it's not a prologue at all), and she was getting excited about working that into the start of her book. Then she thanked me.

Anyway, the point of all this is that maybe for some people the same thing happens, only slower. And then they're embarrassed to tell you because it's been so long. But we still helped them. Thinking that sort of thing cheers me up.

And I think the first chapter (or x number of words) swap is a good idea. Some people just aren't a great fit. If you want to write like Hemingway, I'm not a good guide. I don't like Hemingway. Not all lit fic writers are good judges of three-act genre. Incompatible story goals can drive the two of you nuts. I'd continue to trade in roughly even chunks if it's your first novel-length swap. I've had the story goal problem crop up later in the relationship as well.

I've never had that bad of a beta experience. Granted, I never expect much from the people I beta for, but generally everybody's pretty cool. Well, except for the one guy I had who put like maybe ten comments on my manuscript when I did detailed work for his.

blackcat777 said:

Do you follow up with an author if they never acknowledge having received your beta notes?

I have done a massive amount of beta reading this year (full manuscripts) and I am surprised by the number of authors who don't acknowledge receipt of notes when I send them. Am I way off-base in being surprised by this?

Click to expand...

That genuinely astonishes me.

What kind of writer doesn't like waffling on about their own MS?!

I'm only half joking. I always write back, usually slightly apologeticlaly, explain why XYZ was shite, and some humble bowing/scraping for them having read hahaha. People are also ALWAYS confused about some aspect of my first MS, because it's confusing, and I feel compelled to explain.

I've done a couple of beta reads so am still very new to it and am a couple of months from needing betas for my own MS. But I can't imagine not even acknowledging notes.

1) because after all that work the least someone could do it say they received it and thank you and
2) are there honestly people out there that have no questions or clarifications on notes?
The most satisfying part of my beta reading was the author getting back to be to ask questions and tell me what helped and talk through anything they wanted clarification on.
As a writer that's the bit I like too (granted at this point I've only ever had a beta for a fan fic)

My advice: give them a week, and if they don't acknowledge, nudge. Given the time someone spends doing beta work, it's rude not to thank them.

I've even thanked someone who didn't enjoy the 50 page sample swap of my work and was pretty rude. Writing really is so subjective and not everyone's going to enjoy - or get - what you're trying to do. I appreciate that the beta took their time to read the sample and thanked them.

Some people are polite, others not so...

Carrie in PA: The "Got it." response is disgraceful!

I had my first experience as a beta reader a couple of days ago. We did an author swap, I finished her story in two days, highlighted grammatical mistakes, and addressed her worries concerning whether the story flowed, etc.

I haven't received feedback from her on whether she's done with my story or not.

Seeing that this is my first experience as a beta reader/using a beta reader, I am clueless as to how long it usually takes to receive feedback. Maybe a week or four weeks is the norm and I'm just anxious because I really want to know what she thinks.

BonafideDreamer said:

I had my first experience as a beta reader a couple of days ago. We did an author swap, I finished her story in two days, highlighted grammatical mistakes, and addressed her worries concerning whether the story flowed, etc.

I haven't received feedback from her on whether she's done with my story or not.

Seeing that this is my first experience as a beta reader/using a beta reader, I am clueless as to how long it usually takes to receive feedback. Maybe a week or four weeks is the norm and I'm just anxious because I really want to know what she thinks.

Click to expand...

It 100% depends on the beta and what you agreed with them. One of the hardest things to remember is that our own stories might be the most important thing to us, but to our beta readers, our stories are on the bottom of their to-do lists under everything going on in their lives, up to and including their own stories. As a beta, I've taken anywhere between two weeks to a year to do a book, and the short frame is usually when I have several betas to do and know they're piling up. There's also cases where the beta doesn't mesh with a story and it takes longer or they put it off because it's hard to go to someone and say, "It just wasn't for me." Some people never hear back, even with an exchange that you rocketed through. It happens. Sucks, but it happens. Give your beta some time, check in after a coupe months if you don't hear anything. Rapid or frequent check-ins just make things awkward and end up with hurt feelings on both sides. I hope you hear back from yours soon, but be patient. This takes time.

Two days is fast! I take anywhere from a few days (this is if my schedule happens to be light AND the MS is fast-paced) to um... six months. I usually try to get it done within a month, but sometimes life gets in the way, and well, some MSs are heavier reads. The MS that took me six months had the most gorgeous prose (so I kept pausing to insert comments about how lovely the writing was) but it was also REALLY SLOW. I couldn't bear to read more than a few pages at a time, and I kept having to pause to suggest bits to cut.

I would nudge the beta reader after 6 weeks and just say something like, "Hi! I'm about to start editing my MS and I was wondering if you've had a chance to take a look? If not, no worries! Thanks."